I've posted elsewhere in these fora that my two favorite 4x games of all time are Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (SMAC, released in 1999) and Fall From Heaven 2 (FFH2, a fantasy mod that runs on top of and vastly improves Civ4). I happened to hook a monitor up to one of my headless 'hanger queen' computers in my office and discovered that FFH2 was still installed on it. I hadn't played FFH2 in many months, mostly because I had actual work to do, but I thought, "I'll just fire up a quick game." Finally staggered upstairs to bed around 2 am, remembering why I liked FFH2 so much (and why I had to put it away for a while).
It was also interesting to play FFH2 after having played EWOM heavily for the past week or so. Here are a few things I noticed:
-- As others here have noted, the EWOM landscape is dull, both visually and functionally. I know this is a post-apocalyptic setting, but that should be an opening for craziness (think "Damnation Alley", but with magic), not mile after mile of the same old same old. To a certain extent, this was a weakness in SMAC as well, but SMAC was released over a decade ago and had a lot of other things going for it (see below).
-- Both FFH2 and SMAC have a set of unique landmarks/features in the landscape that provide an incentive to search them out and colonize near them (or, in a few cases, away from them). Ownership/control of some of those features, particularly in FFH2, can have a real influence on the balance of power and the resulting strategy & tactics. There's nothing like that in EWOM, which simply intensifies the blandness of the landscape.
-- SMAC, like EWOM, allowed increasing degrees of terraforming, but it was a much slower tech climb to get them, and there were usually adverse consequences (e.g., attacks by worms, changing weather patterns with impact on farming, melting the global ice caps and causing floods, etc.). In EWOM, the terraforming spells come pretty quickly, are relatively cheap, and can be used with absolute impunity. As I've said elsewhere in the fora, heaven help us when the AIs start using terraforming spells against us.
-- Both FFH2 and SMAC do an outstanding job of making the different NPC factions feel different. FFH2, in particular, shatters the near-interchangeability of the Civ4 factions and forces you to think of some really different approaches to victory depending upon the faction you choose (or are playing against). SMAC, through its clever use of quotes, background material, voice talent, and in-game video clips, did a better job of making each of the factions seem like real living (if archtypical) individuals than any other game I've played. As for EWOM, well, to quote Sting, "they all look like game show hosts to me." Not literally, but the pre-created NPC factions are pretty much at a Civ4 level of variation, and the interactions with them are canned, dull, and limited.
-- And while I'm at it: the logical inconsistencies of player v. NPC interactions in EWOM are annoying at times. Case in point, I'll get a pop-up box from another ruler saying, "Hey, think about having our kids marry each other"; I'll go immediately to the Dynasties interaction menu, and the same ruler will say, "Why would I let my kids marry yours?" Unless Stardock is trying to model passive-aggressive behavior, that's just bad programming.
-- FFH2 and SMAC (and GC2): random events. EWOM: not so much. Now, I'm not always a big fan of random events -- or, perhaps better said, I'm not a big fan of certain kick-over-the-table random events (such as the Dread Lords showing up) -- but I usually keep them turned on anyway. And smaller events, good or bad, provide another source of conflict/opportunity apart from the AIs.
-- FFH2 and SMAC: shipping technology, ship design, ocean resources and harvesting, and ocean-dwelling creatures. EWOM: a single transport design (with annoying behavior), sterile oceans, and the inability to board/disembark units except at a handful of spots. (Yes, I'm familiar with the Erosion spell, but not all factions get terraforming.)
-- FFH2 and SMAC: randomly distributed goodies (with some risk), but any faction can grab them and they tend to vanish over time. EWOM: goodies _increase_ over time (if you research Adventure) and can become almost embarrassing plentiful under certain circumstances. This is not a blanket criticism of EWOM's approach -- I can see the game design intent and logic -- but the implementation feels unbalanced and at times descends into a "Monty Hall" situation.
-- FFH2 and SMAC: unit upgrades. EWOM: nope.
-- FFH2: barbarian cities. I always play FFH2 with barbarian cities turned on.
All that said, I think that EWOM has a lot of promise. I really like the tactical approach to battle (though, as others have noted, there could be some improvements/changes with LOS, order of battle, zone of control, and so on); it is (for me) a much more satisfactory approach to combat than the dueling stacks of SMAC/Civ/FFH2/etc. (I haven't played Civ5.) But, as others have noted, it seems like a game framework in search of an actual game design. Here's hoping we see the game itself emerge. ..bruce..
Well as a player, you can get Morgan to work, but Morgan under the AI is a lame duck destined to fail every time, a waste of space. You practically have to play Morgan if you want 7 players in the game, because Morgan under the AI doesn't even qualify as a faction.
For the most part I agree But, I have seen AI Morgan in a long game on a huge map come into his own if I remember right he took out the Spartans and the Data Angels before he ran into my empire and died a rather quick death. So, I guess from what I've seen none of the factions in that game are brain dead .... granted Morgan's strengh's are not the greatest in a short bloody war but given time even he stands a chance.
I just wished E:WOM had such diversity that we would be able to discuss it's Sov. the way we can with SMAC factions.
Data Angels? You must have some kind of mod or update that i do not have? quite a number of years ago i did start hearing whispers of an expansion called 'Alien Crossfire' But i could never find it or determine if it even existed at all, so eventually i gave up looking.
Well actually, this is more to do with an actual shortcoming of SMAC rather than Elemental! Since SMAC does not let you make custom factions/characters (unless you know how to mod). With most games that do allow custom factions/characters, typically the default ones are long forgotten.
Yes Alien Crossfire does exist it adds a ton of stuff to the base game like: 7 more Factions, Faction Editor, New Tech, More Scenarios, New Units, Smarter AI.... so you see Smac-AC is just as customisible as a modern game. If you can find it Alien Crossfire is well worth it.... I know this game is 10+ years old but, I seem to remember hearing that it was going to be rereleased in Britain as a budget game awhile back....
Beakie
I wonder is it on Impulse? I will check there first.
Edit: hmmm, i remember now! ..... Last time i updated SMAC, some adition involving a 'borehole nexus', i copped a nasty "cpu not supported" message from the game. I had a hell of a time getting rid of that stupidity, that is why i was too scared to update the game again after that.
Not sure If it's on Impulse. But I just reinstalled it to my Win 7 machine and works like a charm. So, if you do find it no worries about compatibilty on modern machines (Just remember to patch it and make sure you get and install the Windows2000/WinXP Patch from the Firaxis site). Beakie
Somehow the forum keeps tricking me into creating a new quoted post instead of editing the previous post i wanted to edit?
Edit: experiment
Edit: seems to be working now??
Thanks to me myrmidon for the heads up on the masterofmana link. When I don't play EWOM, I play FFH2. Downloading as I type.
No problem...you may not exactly thank me when you find yourself at 4:30am still playing...and have to work in a few hours:)
Re FFH2 - Rise from Erebus isn't bad either (better get that in before the hamster shows up)
The easy way to make the ladscape interesting is to generate all the quest locations at the start of the game, including the high level ones. It is totally immersion breaking to suddenly see a cluster of castles appear (how come I never noticed them before - I've been walking round this field for ages and now a ruined castle has appeared)
You might need to
This thread has convinced me to reacquire SMAX. Been years since I played. Glad to see it's way cheaper than it used to be.
Sid Meir's Alpha Centauri with the expansion is still available on Amazon.com for $20.00. It was the highest rated tbs game in computer gaming history. I played it a lot! The only downside is that it is not really a game, but a simulation and whatever you did, the game would evolve on it's own. It was quite possible to play a near perfect game only to have the engine blow one of the other factions through the roof (usually Yang) making the game unplayable and requiring a restart.
Loved Alpha Centauri... not sure what made it so perfect. Mindworms/interludes and interaction with the planet were good for immersion but I think the voiceovers for techs were the most memorable feature of the game. Also I used to love aiming for satelites to boost the food, production and energy of every city (up to it's population size)... always had the game won before then it seemed. Special mechanics for each race were nice, I only avoided my 3 favourite races (university, conciousness and gaians) to play as the pirates at sea or the two aliens with the power bonus from buildings (and no trade).
I haven't played it in a while but I still enjoy it when i do.
"eternity lies ahead of us, and behind, have you drunk your fill?"
(I played the civ4 mod of alpha centuri and it's done well, but it isn't the same)
Oh dear god that one is annoying isn't it!!?? (after you have heard it every second turn for the last hour of play)
it certainly drills itself into your mind, love the others though http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sid_Meier%27s_Alpha_Centauri
worth playing just to hear them
Richard Baxton piloted his Recon Rover into a fungal vortex and held off four waves of mind worms, saving an entire colony. We immediately purchased his identity manifests and repackaged him into the Recon Rover Rick character with a multi-tiered media campaign: televids, touchbooks, holos, psi-tours-- the works. People need heroes. They don't need to know how he died clawing his eyes out, screaming for mercy. The real story would just hurt sales, and dampen the spirits of our customers.
The best or worst quote i have ever heard in a game is in Civ4 "Those who are willing to give up a little freedom for a little security, wind up with neither freedom, nor security". I say best or worst because when i hear that quote, it pisses me off since i am reminded of the extent our western societies have stampeded right over the top of it without the slightest hesitation or reservation.
*vomit* That's my Western Society response to your silly bull.
Wow, that is such a 'solid' argument i have to immediately fall on my knees in repentance for being so wrong! Can you ever forgive me?
Edit: by a strange coincidence, i just happened to come across this story in the news just after making my above post to Lord Xia.....
http://www.news.com.au/travel/news/airport-staff-say-7cm-toy-is-a-firearm/story-e6frfq80-1225995877802
Yes, forgiveness is a strong trait in my western society.
Oh, please, your too kind, besides i already knew that had to be true just by looking at your Avatar pic!!
I'd just like to say again that these boards don't have enough SMAC talk.
You've made me wonder if the SMAC devs talked and thought about their project as some sort of TBS-sim fusion along the lines of the TBS-RPG fusion that Elemental/Enchantress aims for. Haven't thought of it in years, but back in the day I actually played a few SMAC 'games' where I got my faction settled in a solid turtle shell and passed bunches of turns mainly watching what the other factions did; they were very interesting.
Re reloads, I've never been a competitive TBS player, so stepping back a few turns to avoid a really foul engine fart has never bothered me. I leave mega-events enabled in GalCiv2, but there are some that I 'mod' out via loading a save.
That's right, my avatar is that of an ancient Chinese hero, clearly Western society embraces people of all types.
So you think you can out sarcasm me eh? Well of course you can, because it is just so easy, anyone can do it!
As for the game quote that impressed me "Those who are willing to give up a little freedom for a little security, wind up with neither freedom, nor security" It is the case that i have never heard that saying up until i played civ4! So the impact on me was quite strong. I understand the saying has been trumpeted to death in American politics, which is a shame.
Wow, blast from the past. Yes, SMAC, and the alien crossfire expansion is (are?) one awesome game. Videos when you create a 'wonder,' create your own units (design!) according to the tech you have. Red stuff everywhere, lets kill it all and plant trees... opps, was i getting on your nerves! LOL.
Best of all, FFH2. I began playing that back on one of the earliest versions. It has, as someone above wrote, the most replayability of any game I have played. And I started on the original 'Chainmail,' the game from which "D and D" was built. FFH2, very different factions, terrain and 'features,' very important, varied, colorful, and interesting. FFH2, best deal out there, bar none.
When I saw the concept art for EWOM, the pastels, the colors of the landscape, etc, I was excited. Yes, game mechanics are more important. But i enjoyed the visuals. Now, elemental is brown dirt, brown sand, brown mountains, and an occasional cracked land near the fallen ones. Oh, did I mention the brown color of the landscape? The settlements are mostly brown, too. No colorful flags. (Yes, restored areas do get a light (pale?) green tinge..., but no riots of color as plant life thrives...) Dry and dessicated doesn't have to mean boring browns... ever seen pictures of the 'painted desert?"
It is a fantasy game, let its colors show!
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