I've posted elsewhere in these fora that my two favorite 4x games of all time are Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (SMAC, released in 1999) and Fall From Heaven 2 (FFH2, a fantasy mod that runs on top of and vastly improves Civ4). I happened to hook a monitor up to one of my headless 'hanger queen' computers in my office and discovered that FFH2 was still installed on it. I hadn't played FFH2 in many months, mostly because I had actual work to do, but I thought, "I'll just fire up a quick game." Finally staggered upstairs to bed around 2 am, remembering why I liked FFH2 so much (and why I had to put it away for a while).
It was also interesting to play FFH2 after having played EWOM heavily for the past week or so. Here are a few things I noticed:
-- As others here have noted, the EWOM landscape is dull, both visually and functionally. I know this is a post-apocalyptic setting, but that should be an opening for craziness (think "Damnation Alley", but with magic), not mile after mile of the same old same old. To a certain extent, this was a weakness in SMAC as well, but SMAC was released over a decade ago and had a lot of other things going for it (see below).
-- Both FFH2 and SMAC have a set of unique landmarks/features in the landscape that provide an incentive to search them out and colonize near them (or, in a few cases, away from them). Ownership/control of some of those features, particularly in FFH2, can have a real influence on the balance of power and the resulting strategy & tactics. There's nothing like that in EWOM, which simply intensifies the blandness of the landscape.
-- SMAC, like EWOM, allowed increasing degrees of terraforming, but it was a much slower tech climb to get them, and there were usually adverse consequences (e.g., attacks by worms, changing weather patterns with impact on farming, melting the global ice caps and causing floods, etc.). In EWOM, the terraforming spells come pretty quickly, are relatively cheap, and can be used with absolute impunity. As I've said elsewhere in the fora, heaven help us when the AIs start using terraforming spells against us.
-- Both FFH2 and SMAC do an outstanding job of making the different NPC factions feel different. FFH2, in particular, shatters the near-interchangeability of the Civ4 factions and forces you to think of some really different approaches to victory depending upon the faction you choose (or are playing against). SMAC, through its clever use of quotes, background material, voice talent, and in-game video clips, did a better job of making each of the factions seem like real living (if archtypical) individuals than any other game I've played. As for EWOM, well, to quote Sting, "they all look like game show hosts to me." Not literally, but the pre-created NPC factions are pretty much at a Civ4 level of variation, and the interactions with them are canned, dull, and limited.
-- And while I'm at it: the logical inconsistencies of player v. NPC interactions in EWOM are annoying at times. Case in point, I'll get a pop-up box from another ruler saying, "Hey, think about having our kids marry each other"; I'll go immediately to the Dynasties interaction menu, and the same ruler will say, "Why would I let my kids marry yours?" Unless Stardock is trying to model passive-aggressive behavior, that's just bad programming.
-- FFH2 and SMAC (and GC2): random events. EWOM: not so much. Now, I'm not always a big fan of random events -- or, perhaps better said, I'm not a big fan of certain kick-over-the-table random events (such as the Dread Lords showing up) -- but I usually keep them turned on anyway. And smaller events, good or bad, provide another source of conflict/opportunity apart from the AIs.
-- FFH2 and SMAC: shipping technology, ship design, ocean resources and harvesting, and ocean-dwelling creatures. EWOM: a single transport design (with annoying behavior), sterile oceans, and the inability to board/disembark units except at a handful of spots. (Yes, I'm familiar with the Erosion spell, but not all factions get terraforming.)
-- FFH2 and SMAC: randomly distributed goodies (with some risk), but any faction can grab them and they tend to vanish over time. EWOM: goodies _increase_ over time (if you research Adventure) and can become almost embarrassing plentiful under certain circumstances. This is not a blanket criticism of EWOM's approach -- I can see the game design intent and logic -- but the implementation feels unbalanced and at times descends into a "Monty Hall" situation.
-- FFH2 and SMAC: unit upgrades. EWOM: nope.
-- FFH2: barbarian cities. I always play FFH2 with barbarian cities turned on.
All that said, I think that EWOM has a lot of promise. I really like the tactical approach to battle (though, as others have noted, there could be some improvements/changes with LOS, order of battle, zone of control, and so on); it is (for me) a much more satisfactory approach to combat than the dueling stacks of SMAC/Civ/FFH2/etc. (I haven't played Civ5.) But, as others have noted, it seems like a game framework in search of an actual game design. Here's hoping we see the game itself emerge. ..bruce..
I'll sign under that.
I'd say EWOM feels like a technical demo.
To Satardock's credit, their handling of the situation is exceptional.
1. Continuing support and overhaul of the game
2. Hiring the designer of FFH2
3. Two expansion packs for free
Hopefully, E:FE will feel like an actual game
Fixing those first two points is the major focus of FE. Terraforming changes are probably going to be involved to some extent, although maybe not a whole lot. Ocean changes will almost certainly be included, though the degree to which they're included might be unsatisfying.
Faction differentiation is something Kael is great at, and is likely something that will happen increasingly as he remains in charge, though as far as I know, it's not a specific focus for the future.
Barbarian cities actually exist in the form of minor factions in Elemental. That's not exactly the same thing, as they don't show us where all our immigrants are coming from, or where all those darklings and bandits live, but it is something.
I would quite like to see Kael weigh in on this.
FFH2 and SMAC worlds were soooo filled with interesting landscapes, and factions. SMAC only had 7 factions, but they were so distinct, so interesting. FFH2 had...what...21 factions? They were fantastic, different races, cultures, units, so much style, flavor, history, and lore. I would sit and read every single entry to learn everything about FFH2. Every hero bio, every nation bio, every leader bio. Lore on that game was fascinating. I really think Elemental could do that, I think Brad has very good ideas and lore, it just hasn't shown up in the game yet.
Absolutely on both points. Also, FFH2 made religion mean something (unlike Civ4). I seriously think that FFH2 has greater replay than any other 4x game I've ever played -- and I've been doing this for a long time (I'm approaching 60). I've been playing Stardock games a long time as well; between Frogboy, Kael and Jon, I have great hopes for EWOM. ..bruce..
Hopefully Cephalo can convince (force) the Elemental team to make the maps awesome. Check out his recent threads on true 3D terrain.
I hope Fallen Enchantress really blows us all away with its magnificence!
I want:
- bandit camps spawning streams of pillagers
- ocean trading with distant factions and your trading ships getting swallowed by nefarious ocean dwellers
- pirates that patrol the waters and send ashore raiding parties
- more, more, more
So many good ideas out there.
And maybe underwater races....
Yea, maybe R'yleh!
Agreed! But IMO no TBS will beat SMACK again IMO!
I'd like to see an in-game television show called Elemental Idol. I nominate Lord Xia.
I never bought Civ4, so never played the FFH mod. Were they able to figure out how to give units more than 1 number to handle combat (as in separate offense and defense numbers) or was that the same as the regular Civ4? The reason I ask is that soon after the game came out, I looked for info about whether units could be modded with separate offense and defense, but what I found said they could not. That was a major reason why I never bought the game back then.
Later versions of FFH2 and its modmods were able to give different attack and defense values, yes. (And it may have been in Civ4:Beyond the Sword, which the later versions of FFH2 were based on.)
Best regards,Steven.
This thread inspired me to reinstall FFH2. Kudos kael.
-Zanzi
Thanks.
Well if not undewater races then underwater quests and things to do.
Seamen! This game should be filled with Seamen!
Xia, how is it you have more karma than me?
People find my remarks funny. I'm not all that helpful, but I do make some laugh at times.
Indeed, although I have no idea how naval combat would work.
Go to a tactical map that has water in it!
Then you can have cannons firing, and boarding planks for when the ships are next to each other. Then let your pirates do their thing. Haarrr Haaarrr!
Joy is important.
Fall from Heaven 2 was indeed spectacular....but I think you will really like one of the successor developments going on with the Wildmana mod-mod, now entitled Master of Mana:
www.masterofmana.com
completely discrete magic system: spells and effects, magic based unit promotions, magic research tree, magic based terraforming), truly unique civ builds, I could go on and on
warning: this mod will stretch a lot of systems. I have to boot Windows with /userva=value and /3gb to give the app enough memory in xp (no, don't play with these options unless you know what you are doing)
..oh and the Planetfall mod for Civ4 brings SMAC up to modern times (well as close as Civ4 can make it I suppose)
I think Elemental could benefit most from more options.
More options in the Dynasty system
More options in charachter/empire creation
more options in terms of different types of defenses verses different types of attacks such as in Galciv2.
I am a long time fan of Alpha Centauri and i am still waiting for a game to come along that it actually better?? But, since no developer is interested in developing a better game, i would love to know more about mods for SMAC?
Even if i could just set up a game where all players are Gaian, i would love that? Since Gaian are clearly the most powerful faction or at least a mod that boosts useless factions like the Morganites!
Now, See I like Morgan it's the Spartans that are less then useful... IMHO of course, your mileage may vary....
To get back somewhat on topic I'm all for more meaningfull options in E:WOM....
Beakie
Wow! Thanks for the heads up. ^^
Master of Mana looks pretty good.
I am going to have to download that.
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