Ok, I have an example map here for the next version of Elementerra. It is playable at this point and I want to get some feedback on the new system. This is a drastically different style of map! So much so that it doesn't even work fully with the current game, but hopefully I can lobby for a few easy tweaks that can remove the mostly aethsetic obstacles. Give this a try and tell me what you think in terms of resource placement and balance. This is a large map made for all ten factions. If you have cheating turned on, you can view the whole map in game with the Ctrl+U key.
Download the file here -> Mountainless.zip Unzip this and put it in your user/Documents/My Games/Elemental/Maps folder.
Magic creates the world!
The world is molded by the magic forces present in the shards. Air and earth magic are relatively calm forces, but when they come in contact with one another through the ether a violent reaction occurs. Over time, these interactions fold the land and push up large mountain ranges in places where air and earth magic are found in relatively even strength.
Fire and water magic are volatile forces that create parched deserts and icy wastelands. When they come together however, they will counteract and nuetralize one another. Where fire and water magic are found in balance with one another we find the areas of the world that are the most fertile, and the weather most agreeable. When there is a great deal of both fire and water magic present, vast quantities of water melt from the ice and collect in nearby lowland swamps.
Multiple walkable levels!
This is a high-relief map that supports winding mountain paths and room for city building on some of the highest mountains in the world! Every flat area in the mountains is pathable. It can sometimes be an extremely complex maze, but there is no walkable area in the mountains that cannot be reached on foot from the lowest altitude... eventually. In this map it is possible to go 'into' and 'over' the mountains along footpaths, not just go around them. Its a whole new way to extend the exploration game and hide amazing treasures in the nooks and crannies!
Showcased Resources!
Resources in this version can be 'showcased' with little preset terrain blocks that setup a certain fictional context. The screenshot below gives a few examples of ancient city remnants where I am placing Lost Libraries, Ancient Temples and what few ruin like objects I could find in the map props. These showcases are configured by drawing with text in an XML file so that you can make your own showcases for modded resources and other map objects.
So why doesn't it work?
There are three minor problems with the game that are preventing full functionality of a map like this in the standard game. Hopefully these can be changed in an upcoming patch.
1.) I had to fake the mountains! Those aren't actually mountains. They are hills made impassable with a blocked tile object. I couldn't use mountains because there is a routine called upon loading a map that creates hills of a set altitude around mountains. This prevents the map maker from controlling the altitude of the maps tiles unfortunately. This routine is probably unnecessary and the call could probably be commented out as a solution to this problem. Edit: actually, removing this code could break all the premade maps that come with the game... Maybe instead we could get an XML tag to turn this off for a map. Automatic placement of beaches is another thing I'd like to eliminate.
Another unfortunate side effect is that you can't see any mountains on the cloth map.
2.) I can't control the snowline. Mountains near a fire shard in the desert really shouldn't have snow on them. At some point I'd like to make volcanos instead. It would be nice if I could set the environment snow levels in the map file. This snowline variable is actually controlled in the XML, but since I'm trying to make a map for the standard game, it would be good to not have to resort to a mod.
3.) Building cities on a mountain causes the mountain to melt away! This one really crushed my spirits. I reallly wanted to show you guys an awsome screenshot of a mountaintop citidel, but it was not to be. The issue here is also in the XML, but appears to be unmoddable. In the 'city' terrain type, there are two tags <MaxHeight> and <MinHeight>. When you build a city, the altitude morphs to the larger of these two variables! I don't think this is working properly, but it probably wasn't noticed because the default values for these variables are both the same at 50. If you set one of these to 1000, your city morphs into a giant spire! purdy funny stuff. I don't think this behavior is necessary either, city graphics can handle small inclines. Its much better to have a goofy looking city sometimes than to not have a mountaintop citidel!
This is just unbelievable. I truly hope that you get the xml tweaks you're looking for.
Me too!
Hey, I know we sort of had this discussion before, but I think it's a shame you're not utilizing different environments more. I mean you've already got your basic premise; fire=dead/desert, earth=grassland, water=swamp (actually a terrain but whatever), air= arctic.
edit: actually, it would probably be better to have water as arctic as ice seems to be what it does from the spellbook. Air could be rugged land, then.
Well, for now I'm putting a system in place. I need a fictional, magic related fuzzy logic to guide the placement of the other environments. This stuff is all about rules. I'm open to suggestions.
Also, I think I'm going with water=ice kinda like where the spells seem to be going. I rationalized the swamp as a high concentration of water and fire.
Well, I can't tell you about rules really, I'm bad at algorithms and such.
Personally I think a sort of core area around the shard, mixed up with sprawls out from that area would be cool. Sort of like this ground decal, if you imagine the shadowed area in the sprawls as not there.
Obviously such a "round" core area would be very boring, it should be more malformed (in my opinion).
I guess you could also use the terrain to block/unleash sprawls. Ie the environment would reach further if there were no mountains blocking it, and it would also reach further if the shard went from high -> low altitude (might not work if altitude is part of their placement).
Edit: Maybe something like this: http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/192/elemental1295500984.jpg
These environments don't have to be tied to one kind of magic. You can make some interesting patterns with combinations of different magic types. I was thinking I can scatter the lush green environments along the mild collisions of fire and water, and also place most of the food resources in those places. I'm not sure how to handle the fallen environment. I could use it for a scorched area right close to fire shards, within the surrounding desert areas. It might look good with volcanos and stuff.
I also plan to use magic combinations for resource placement, but I'm not going to hard code any of that stuff. I'm going to make an XML file so that modders can place any map object using various methods and criteria that can be specified in the file.
There's a game balance issue with the fallen/grassland environments, since they give 10% more def/attack to those of the right allegiance, and 10% less to those of the wrong allegiance. You'll have to be careful not to make one environment be in more abundance than the other one (I mean, within reason).
That's kinda why I refrained from those in the past. Not really for game balance but because it's the development of their civilizations that are supposed to create those environments.
Looks great. I am looking forward to its release.
Cephalo, you da man. I really hope Stardock is reading up on this and considering making the changes you need to get this to work. Of all the mod work on Elemental so far, I think Elementerra really shows best what can be possible.
Looks incredible! I love the rolling feel to the countryside and the well defined areas of swamp and forest. The coastlines look awesome, too.
My hope would be that we still have control over how much hill/mountain, forest, swamp, etc. we get on a given map. If you start adding in environments, it would be nice to control the percentage of those as well. So if I want to give the Fallen civs an edge, I could up the Fallen environment. Just a thought.
Now thats what I'm talking about!! Awesome concept cephalo! I've always had the feeling that Elementals map script was missing something huge. This could fill the gap (spawn the shards and shape the terrain, then place the civs and normalize the starts as needed, now populate with heroes, monsters and lore locations). A world shaped by magic would be just too cool! Increased world immersion here we come! Theres reasons why that swamp exists and those mountains are so hot. And while exploring, one can decipher the land for clues, but not assurances, as to where to seek the magic (a mini-game of hot/cold). And Shards could use a little something extra. And don't get me started on the cool factor of mountain passes, alpine lakes, lost temples atop a high mountain plateau, a hidden village in a valley... Yeah man, I like your concept very much indeed! I enthusiastically third the motion for the XML support you need!
Yeah, thanks for getting that. I specifically went that direction to make the map exploration a sort of puzzle to solve. The fact that the fiction called for a dead world, ouch! I believe that was a much bigger design challenge than the SD guys realized. How in the heck do you make exploring a dead world fun? I hoped that this could help alleviate that burden somewhat.
We hear rumors of alot more fun stuff for the maps in Fallen Enchantress which is great, but I think this will still help. I'm really hoping the new stuff will be compatible with a true, functionally 3 dimensional map. That's one reason I wanted to show this map before Elementerra2 was actually finished, so I could show it to Derek and get him to have some 3D on the brain while directing the project. This is not a mock-up btw, this map was generated with the new code.
I still need to handle map object placement and build a UI(One that keeps its previous settings this time) to control all of this stuff, so it won't be finished for a while.
Ok, things are coming along pretty well. I have a system for placing resources on the map in the normal way and I also have a system for 'showcasing' certain resources. Both of these systems are configurable in two XML files, so you can add showcases and resources/map objects to be placed for mods or whatever.
I have updated the file link in the OP to a new playable map file! I've played through half a game and though there are still the same cosmetic problems that I mentioned, the game is still functional and can be played with this map.
When I have time next week I will create a new UI and try to release the next version after some polishing.
Functional 3 D Maps?This is mind-boggling. Hats of again cephalo. I will be more than happy to test-run this as time permits when you got a working script fully done (Not being much of a usable alpha tester thanks to lack of patience with rally serious bugs / glitches... but more than happy to beta it.).Finally someone gets to add a real boon to 3D besides the optics in TBS. So far I am not sold on the advantages of 3 D but this might change my mind. Also should fit some of the concepts laid out for FE quite nicely (deep down gorges ect. ...)I just hope Stardock gets the graphics-glitches (affecting me and a few others with G-Force 7k series Graphics cards) from the current beta fixed in time for this to work rightly... (otherwise I would be forced to go cloth-map which might distort the results of testing this...)
Only issue I ran into so far was a quest that spawned the darkling hut to kill was spawned on an impassable tile so i cant get to it to finish the quest Otherwise I'm loving the direction of this map script.. If only you could go all dwarf fortres and have it name the various areas spawned etc would to wonders for immersion!
Yeah unfortunately 'blocked tiles' are not respected when it comes to spawning things. You'll notice the occasional NPC stranded on a hill also. I sure hope I'll be able to use real mountains at some point, then those issues should go away.
@Blackmantle ya the cloth map is worthless at this time, since I can't use mountains.
I still have some bugs to work out, but I took a nice screenshot today I wanted to share.
I've got the UI all hooked up and working, but I've exposed some crash bugs that happen when you pick outlandish settings, like 60 magic shards on a 48x48 map. I should have it polished up by next week.
Good to hear! Thanks for the update - looking forward to this!!
Sorry, I am a little confused as to what this new version does. I mean I read the description so are you saying that depending on what shards spawn and where, the land will be different or something?
Yes. The balance of magic also affects resource placement, but its still hard to predict where things will spawn.
this doesnt work no updates or download link anymore?
I don't think it is being worked on currently. But it may be revived for FE if the random map generator for FE needs more variety or is moddable (hopefully the FE generator will be good enough to stand alone, and/or moddable).
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