“Expansion Packs”
In the time before digital distribution, you had “expansion packs”. It is a concept that has survived well into the digital distribution age.
You’d release say Galactic Civilizations II: Dark Avatar as an expansion for people who had the game and then Galactic Civilizations II: Gold Edition for new buyers. Similarly, we released Sins of a Solar Empire: Diplomacy and Sins of a solar Empire: Trinity for new buyers.
So why was that done? The answer is, in the old days, there was no sure fire way to tell if someone had the original game. So you had to offer a second SCU just for those people. On the business software side, all kinds of efforts have been made to try to get new editions down to a single SCU including installers that sniffed for the original version, send in a copy of your manual, you name it.
A New Team
Fallen Enchantress gives us the opportunity to have a very different fantasy strategy game than War of Magic. While the original intent was simply to eliminate an unnecessary SCU (we can simply have Fallen Enchantress with an upgrade price for people who have War of Magic), in this case, it lets us make an even bigger break from War of Magic because it has a new Lead Designer (Kael instead of myself) with Jon Shafer helping as well as we begin pre-production of Jon’s new game along with many other changes. It’s still Stardock but it’s a very different Stardock than what made War of Magic (or GalCiv II for that matter).
I’m still filling the role of studio lead developer and Executive Producer but we’re actively seeking out industry veterans to take over the role of lead developer of Stardock Entertainment.
A New Game
There is also another advantage to Fallen Enchantress being its own game rather than an “expansion pack”. And that is, it frees the team to make radical changes to the basics of the game while allowing War of Magic to still be updated on its own source tree. A user of Fallen Enchantress won’t have to have War of Magic to play it and can treat War of Magic as a separate game.
This will be the same case for the third entry in the Elemental world which won’t be out for a long time still (but will be free for people who got War of Magic before the end of October 2010). It’ll be its own game as well not requiring War of Magic and Fallen Enchantress but be available at a sharp discount to those who have the previous entries in the game world.
The Changing Market
A few years ago, this wouldn’t be possible. Retailers would have refused to carry just stand-alone expansion. There were exceptions and the Company of Heroes series did a lot of good for our industry by paving the way here. Supreme Commander’s “stand alone” expansion helps as well.
Of course, no one has brought more attention to the changing digital model of PC games more than Blizzard with its recent release of Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty which will have two additional stand-alone games in the Starcraft 2 universe.
Will this be a good thing for PC gamers? I think it depends on how it’s handled. Personally, I’d like to see people get discounts if they have other chapters in the series. That’s going to be our model for the foreseeable future but part of that is because we have our own digital distribution platform (Impulse).
I will take my 2 free expansions. I hope fallen enchantress is amazing. So much potential still in this game.
Ahhh, that clears up my concerns that were silently simmering in the shadows. I guess it would involve checking whether a customer has registered or updated EWoM before giving the customer a price.
I'd like to know what FE is and what is the target for moddability. Is it along the lines of the 4xTBS: SM Alpha Centauri elements? Is it entirely a campaign?
Expansion already and we haven't even gotten the original up and running without bugs. Maybe you should have waited a few more months before releasing the WoM and just put out Elemental: Fallen Enchantress. I really hope you fix a few things with this expansion....
1. Fix the Out of Memory crashes. Really annoying.
2. More detailed and rewarding quests.
3. A more diverse tech / spell trees to give flavor to individual factions. Right now you only need play one Kindom and one Fallen to get all of the feel for the game.
4. More diverse and thought out NPCs with possible side quests: You pick up an NPC looking for her twin brother. In your travels you find <trigger marker> if NPC is part of faction, then, You find a clue to her twin brother's fate... Chain quest with possible out comes: a. brother joins faction, b. brother is found dead but puts and end to her search, c. brother has turned evil/good fight. Another idea, Paladin or anti-paladin, joins faction but has lost his war mount, armor and weapon. Side quests to recover them all. The options here are limitless and can be done with very little coding. NPCs should not respawn as well. Once dead they are gone (unless Life Magic: ressurect or Death Magic: Undead). Mulitple spawns of the same NPC is not only annoying it can unbalance the game if you get say 10 tech related NPCs of the same name/same person.
5. A larger selections of abilities and traits to flesh out unique factions. Minor Factions should be there as well (actually spawn during a game..not currently happening as they are on placed on game maps) to provide flavor and distractions for expansion. Each minor faction should have it's own ZOC with resources and growing city. Prevent growth by not allowing them to make pioneers.
6. Armor/weapons. More detailed and diverse armor. 2-3 forms of leather, Cloth armor for casters, 2-3 mail/scale types, 2-3 plate types. Weapons should be more readily available. Broadswords after several tech advances? If they still know how to make blades then swords should be a low tech and advanced metallurgy gives you better/stronger blades.
7. Spells. Make some spells (spell books) prevent others from being learned so you have to choose your destiny. Don't make Fire the win all with it damage. Damage spells shouldn't be the major difference between them. Firebolt, Icebolt, Stonethrow, they should all be close to the same and some things would be immune to them, ie Fire Elemental is immune to (yep that is right) Fire! The diversity should come from functional spells. Like Earth would give you Farming Bonuses, Water: ships bonuses, Fire: ravaging land tiles, Life: healing spells, Death: (yep) Death spells. etc. This would make you have to choose your type of ethos or style and NPCs would only join you if they had the same ethos or closely related to prevent NPC armies with 6-10 spell casters.
8. Resources should spawn more logically. I can tell you how many games I played where ore or another resource spawned in really wierd environment tiles. Also more diverse resources and mounts
9. There should be more mounts that are also researchable, ie standard horse, scouting horse (speed), War horse (bonus fighting/armored), etc.
10. Finally, units should be more useful. I don't even created units in most of my games. I just buy up every NPC I see, Imbue them, and arm them and beat the snot out of other guys armies. They should start out in small squads. This would make them more deadly early on. As Bruce Lee said. (paraphrased) "I can fight one person no problem, 2 would be tough, but 3 or more would be almost impossible." Numbers kill. A knight in armor on his war horse is attacked by a mob of 10 spear wielding militia is gonna die. Sure he is gonna kill a lot of them but he can defend himself from all directions all at once.
I just hope you put more time and energy into this expansion because I have had to rewrite so much of your code to make the game enjoyable to me I might as well make my own game. I don't want to do that. That is what I pay you for, and yes I do, because I buy the game. You have such a good concept here if you just took the time to flesh it out. Make it something it was supposed to be. At worst, dumb it all down and make an electronic board game of it. That way no one will expect more from the game, but if you really listen to your buyers, maybe you can give them something they want. Just some of my thoughts for what they are worth. (probably not much as many will flame this.) Good luck. I will play the expansion as I get it for free but if it is like the original, I won't bother even downloading my second free expansion because I will be done buying or playing Stardock game.
I wish I were a code master too.
Where do I begin?
How does one learn this stuff?
-.-
Thank you, SerinMaldy, I agree with you whole heartedly, I just hope Fallen Enchantress can be the game that sets this all apart. Elemental was a shame to me, so much potential, and just an awful follow through. But now we have a lot of talent coming into Stardock and I have high hopes for the future
It will probably show up in Impulse in a similar way to SoaSE, the base game is there, and can be played with only original content. And below it, SoaSE: Entrenchment is a separate game and can be played with that content. Each game gets separate updates...
It seems to have potential, but one can't help but wonder how things will shake down in the grand scheme of things in terms of having 3 teams actively working on the 3 games at the same time---and that's not even bringing the concept of an ACTUAL sequel or perhaps even "classic expansions for the neo-expansions" into the mix, particularly if any/all of the remainder strike a cord in terms of sales and such.
It isn't a move I expected as an early pre-order person, but we'll see how it all shakes out I reckon. I also wonder what direction this will take any "Elemental" modding efforts, as again it'd come down to that minimum 3 way split....
I'm excited. Ready for a few more WOM patches to iron out technical details and AI so that FE can be the big turning point for gameplay. Enjoying 1.11 keep it up guys!
Can't say I've ever been a fan of the old stand alone expansion thing. One of the points to the traditional expansion is you can use the resources already installed on the machine, which keeps it smaller, quicker to install and generally far preferable to having to install the whole damn game again. Plus it always makes the previous games seem pointless. Unless you're going to radically deviate from the original game (in which case surely what you have is a new game using the old setting/engine?) then you're making the original completely obsolete, as happened with Dawn of War, Company of Heroes et al. Or in other words, if FE is going to be Elemental but "better", why would anyone want to buy WoM?
Erm, generally traditional expansions get reviewed too. Unless you assume reviewers are brain dead morons (in which case I suggest going elsewhere for your gaming reviews) calling it Elemental : Fallen Enchantress will not hoodwink them into thinking it's completely different from Elemental : War of Magic. And they'll treat is as such whether it's stand alone or not.
In fact it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't for Stardock. In both cases they'll reference the pigs ear that was the launch of WoM. If it's standalone, expect them to range between subtle hints and out and out accusations on the theme of Stardock abandoning WoM. If it's a traditional expansion expect it to be written off as an attempt to make the original worthwhile.
Generally speaking, it's better to just ignore the gaming press entirely and get on with what you're doing.
Anyway, no matter how the expansion turns out, there is people that it's going to complain, come to the forums to troll, ask for refunds, etc. (optimistic here! ) Why? Because: "It doesn't have my favourite features!", "It still isn't MoM 2!!!!!", "This should have been in WoM!", "I hate stand alone expansions!", "I have to use Impulse!!!", "Beta should have lasted two more years!!!" and similars that people value as top priority for them.
There are always complains. Thats right Wintersorg. But i also cant go away from the Expansion/New game thing. I have no problem with FE as a new game.
But i´ll try to give an example. It was always said/wrote by Brad and other SD member that they will do everything to be sure that E: WoM will reach its potencial. The team does a great job to make the game better. Now for example there is one thing i like to see -> better tactical battles. I hoped for the Expansion, but as i understand E: WoM will never get a better tactical battle system. Thats for E: FE. And there will be other features they will put into E: FE and not in WoM, although it would be possible. So the game will never reach its potencial.
The whole "reach its potencial" - thing is not my idea. Brad often wrote it....
Well, first: we don't really know what Stardock is planning for FE. I expect Stardock to treat Elemental much like they did to Gal Civ II though.
Will it be WoM plus some changes? Will it be "Elemental almost 2"? Something in between? Fallen Enchantress is nothing but a name to differenciate it from the base game. I'd say that Elemental (WoM is just part of it, not the whole thing, which I think that creates confusion among some people) can only reach any possible super potential it has by adding as much meaningfull content as possible. That requires expansions. That they are stand-alone or not doesn't seem so important, imho. And I'm quite sure that Frogboy talks about the Elemental game (not just base game) when he talks about reaching potentials (that he actutally mentioned WoM as part of it does not really matter when he had planned for a long time two expansion packs).
Plus it's seems like too late to make the base game uber awesome and patch all the pure awe into the game without the need of expansions. (bad release and everything) Not that I wouldn't mind a better Dynasty system for WoM or initiative based tactical battles just to mention two. In the case of initiative based battles, I read somewhere that it was not so easy for WoM, which would suggest heavy surgery to combat in general, in my uneducated opinion.
For those of the stand-alone thingy... Let's see if I can understand this.
As I already said talking about Gal Civ II's expansions, they were not stand-alone (or my memory truly betrays me) and required the base game. And you didn't get just one game but you had three because you could still play whichever version you wanted. Totally evolved and intereting Gal Civ II? Then Twilight. Vanilla with factions that resemble in uniqueness to those of Elemental right now? Then Dark Lords (base game). There is no "content overlap" that ends with you having only one game and if you didn't like the features of the first expansion you are screwed because they are included in your game along with the features of other expansions that have not overlapped them.
We are not talking of expansions as in: "I have a pair of Elemental pants without pockets and when I buy the expansion it replaces my pants with another pair of Elemental pants with pockets." But more like "I have a pair of Elemental pants without pockets and when I buy the expansion I get another pair of Elemental pants but these ones with pockets. I can wear the ones I want, the ones without pockets or the ones with pockets, whenever I want." The only problem, being stand alone, would be that in the later case you need more space in your wardrobe if you decide to keep both ready to use. That some pockets may be "ported" to the vanilla Elemental pants or not is something that I cannot say though. If the pockets you want for your vanilla required lots of changes for the expansion (and/or totally destroy the orginal pants9, then no way.
But as we don't know which will be Stadock adding to our Elemental pants, who can guess if once released only minority will stick to use those vanilla pants while the rest enjoy (what in their opinion is) a better and more close to its potential expansion? Hell, we all may end wearing belt miniskirts.
Any idea on what the price band will be for this new expansion? I have Elemental, but I bought it just after the New Year. I feel a little gipped that because I'm poor and only got the game a few days after an arbitrary line in the sand, I end up worse off than people who are bagging it mercilessly (I play the HELL out of this game).
But even so, I guess if the price for it if you already own Elemental is low (like, single digit pounds low) I won't feel quite like a random victim of such mighty circumstance as 'had no idea such a game was out'. I adored Fall From Heaven II when I was playing Civ 4, so getting this game as a full-on attempt at the same thing is...well, it would be impolite to mention such a physical reaction in good company.
On the plus side, I guess I'm not going to get screwed quite so heavily as I did for Blood Bowl. Oh hey, we've released this game ---> Few months later ----> Oh hey, we've released the same game with all the stuff it should have had in the first place for an even higher price.
Nothing mentioned about the price itself (beyond the "hefty discount for owners of Elemental that don't get the expansion for free"). Worst case scenario, priced as a normal expansion pack (whichever that is) for those who own Elemental.
Just wanted to say, I have never heard buying a new pair of pants illuminated in such a glorious, analogy filled, light. love it!
Moddability goals for FE are still being established. Not sure what you mean about SMAC elements though - are you talking about FE in general, or just modding features?
Jon
Shoud have some in Elemental Chain male version (Pun intended)
Ok, ok. I´ll take two pants...... No? *confused*
Wait a minute, please correct me if I'm wrong.
I huge overhaul with 1.1, I can notice it. I was expecting the expansions to be, an expansion, meaning building on the game. And now, I believe I'm being told that I'm actually getting "another" game. And I'll just say now, that I'm a little alarmed at this "drastic change".
I'm really worried about the general direction of the game. Is it going to go for some hero based, quest oriented direction!? I really hope not. If this is supposed to be the spiritual successor of MOM, than let's keep going in that direction. Shall we?
I really hope that some details about what this expansion is aiming for in terms of gameplay. I have to say, I feel bleak about things.
Just make EFE much more like Age of Wonders and Master of Magic and I'll be one ecstatic camper.
If that big a radical departure is required in order to make EFE like that then I have no qualms about it being a standalone expansion,
Make it so.
Completely agree with these sentiments.
In terms of modding, it depends on how low level the mod is.
As do I.
What's Game 2? Is that Jon's game? What is it? What? Huh? So, what is it? Tell me now, please? Please? Now? PLEASE? NOW? PLEASE! NOW! NOW!
At least tell me what kind of game it is? 4x turn based? Fantasy, Sci-Fi? Come on!
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