Dear FrogBoy,
I have owned most of your titles since GalCiv1. I enjoyed your creations thoroughly. Now, I was about to buy Elemental after reading how much better it became with patch 1.1. I wanted to buy Elemental because the lead designer of Civilization 5 ruined my civ experience after 20 years of loyal support.
Not anymore. I will not buy any other game that this person touches. I know of many that were thinking along the same lines, and were about to put money into Elemental to run away from the monster that this "lead designer" created and that is not true to the succesful principles that made Civilization the best franchise ever.
With this move, I think you lost a huge amount of potential sales that were about to happen, Brad. I'm sorry. Good luck, you will need it now.
Regards,
Elemental is a lot of fun at v1.1 as the result of a lot of good work by a number of people.
I expect Elemental to get better as the result of the work of that same group of people. There is no way that I can tell for sure if the addition of one specific person will change that trend and make this a bad game or if the current improvement trend will continue.
What I will do is wait and see what happens and make any judgements based on the real outcome. If the game continues to get better I will continue to play the game and recommend it to others. If the game gets bad I will do the opposite.
Pre-judging the outcome either positively or negatively based on indirect data is not consistent with my desire to judge games based on how much I enjoy them when I play them.
NDAs probably prevent us from receiving any inside information or tales of drama unfortunately
We need the media to refocus attention away from Hollywood and towards gaming to get some crazy theorycrafting going...
Quick Brad, give Rebelito a cake to apology. But... well, that's not my problem. Well, Jon is a good edition to Stardock. So welcome to forum, son, if you haven't do it.
You would have to be pretty narrow minded to beleive that this guy is solely responsible for Civ 5s short comings, he did a great job with Civ 4, which is why I play it still after not having the stomach to even get to the modern age in Civ 5, it bored me to tears.
Saying civ 4 is better because of the expansion packs is true to an extent, though the new idea's they came up with during the extended design time could have been easily introduced into Civ 5, yet they were not, it seems they created a generic game which they will over time milk the consumers with DLC until one day, after paying 3x what you did in the first place, have the game we wanted.
I think this move should be seen as Stardocks dedication to improving Elemental, weather you like Elemental or not, you cannot fault the companies desire to make Elemental a great game.
........
NONE of this drivel changes or addresses Fistalis's point that he bought Elemental to get away from Jon and his decisions (rightly or wrongly attributed to him).
I'm not saying that he won't do a great job on elemental. I'm saying that in my opinion he ruined the lastest installment of my favorite franchise and i'm still pissed about it. I bought elemental to get away from the sort of design decisions he made only for him to be hired on to the game i bought to support a different design style. Its maddening I tell you. A lesson in the absurd.
And to be honest. Had this been announced prior to my purchase of elemental I wouldn't have bought it. Simply because the state of Civ V is what lead me to buy elemental. I woulda just said F it i'll wait for a new paradox game.
Which is basically my point.. (or was before i got derailed in thought) the ill will (deserved or not) that people feel toward shafer for Civ V is now going to be felt by elemental. As the OP has demonstrated.
Some of you mindless idiots need to at least acknowledge that it must seem INSANE (word used correctly this time) for Fistalis to leave Civ5 due to Jon's design decisions only to find that very man now "helping" his newly aquired purchase along......GEEEZ some of you people are obtuse!
....sigh
I hate Civilization 5 as do my friends that I play Civ IV BTS with. This hatred has sent me on a search for a replacement. Civ was always the default game that I'd turn to when I was bored. I do blame everything on Jon Shafer, because that's the only name that I know. I couldn't help but notice the CEO post here and even throw a jab at another. I really like that this is my kind of place. I'll buy this game next paycheck.
p.s. Please make Jon Shafer post here and converse with others. I know a ton of people that would buy your game for this opportunity!
Nice welcoming party for Jon. LOL.
I find it hard to believe anybody had a personal dislike for Jon or even that many people here knew who he was. I think people just see the words "Lead Designer - Civ V" and put two and two together. I know I do. But then...everybody starts saying the Lead Designer of Civ V had nothing to do with Civ V being bad??? Insult my intelligence all you want, you're not going to get me to buy that one.
Before everyone crucifies Jon and Brad for hiring him, let's see what kind of work they produce. Remember, Jon also helped to create Beyond the Sword for Civ IV...
The dude is a gold mine. You could put him on a website and have a midget throw pies at his face for $5 dollars a pop. Retire after that.
Good call on both Stern & Shafer, this superbly timed out business move may very well prove to be pivotal for future SD endeavors.
Now, we'll also probably get the GC3 sooner and in some deserved innovative terms.
Some people in this thread need one of these badly, methinks
When Civ5 goes pimpmode in 2014ish with the second expansion, people will recognize just how incredibly important it was to focus on the core systems and ignore the rest of it. 1upt? hexes? City states? Culture tree? Mostly clean interface? Art deco style? Except for the city states, none of that could have gone into the game post-release without a huge amount of time and effort. And even they could only have come about in an expack entirely dedicated to them.
The rest of the stuff needed the feedback of millions of users to improve. Brain dead AI? Not enough testing -- and you'll never get enough testing to compare to real users going at your game. Imperfectly tuned systems? Duh. Again, something only mass users are going to notice.
Heck, even modders know that there's a huge difference between a system that sounds good on paper and played the way you expect it to be played, and a system played by people looking to exploit any and every loophole for an easy win. My relatively simple Mount and Blade mod needed a ton of testing to get the basic balance right.
The design decisions are the critical element. Everything else, like Elemental, is a cake that needs some more baking. If you can't recognize that, well, you haven't been around long enough.
I'ma conclude with one word, just one word: Arcanum.
Amen Brotha (or Sista)! A very important point that not many people recognize.
There isn't any proof that Jon is the person who ruined the Civ5. More likely some bad decisions and communication between the team and execs made Civ5 half-baked game.
Please, chill already (the pic above is great), this is Elemental forum and we do not need another "Jon ruined my game", "Civ5 is terrible" threads. There are plenty in CFC and you can make new ones there.
Please let him work... You can always judge yourself AFTER taste what he (more precisely, stardock with him) delivers.
Confucius say that man who leap off cliff jump to conclusion.
All kidding aside anything is possible given enough time and money. I bought Elemental in September, had my wtf moments with CTD's and lame AI, came to the forums, microwaved a bag of popcorn while I read the drama, digested SD's plan, watched the execution of said plan, and am now playing my little teenie tiny part of the community feedback loop. SD is investing the money and proving it with these hires; they just need the time. As a customer I'm willing to grant that. We all have the same goals and objectives - a kick ass game replayable for years to come.
Anyway, I'm gonna go back to playing Elemental with the iTunes shuffle of Iron Maiden and Rush. I get all excited when Alexander the Great or The Necromancer pops on. It helps with the roleplay.
At least they didn't hire Ryan Dancey. That guy keeps moving upward in the gaming industry killing every game he's involved with.
Fair enough, I can see the value in that. But that isn't the world we live in right now, and its not considered standard practice, like it or not we hold CEO's to a higher standard. Also if I called someone insane (and their post was reasonable) I'm sure it would draw comment (rightly so).
On the other other hand if you will... you don't get change by not reacting to the status quo. So I'll consider Brad a pioneer in bringing down artificial standards (and thus giving more freedom for conversation) for CEOs and agree with you.
elemental(or any complex game for that matter) is hardly a one person show. it takes a whole team of people to make a game good or make a game crap. put a little faith in stardock and believe that they will do right by us. things have been a little rocky over the last year but i believe that in the end all will be well.
Someday I might play Civ 5 and get what the hell you guys are all ranting about.
I might not too. Games based on history never interested me, be they fact or fiction.
But since I'm here and talk too much, I will say I'm very glad to see more top tier talent on Elemental, especially as expansions and sequels will undoubtedly benefit in a big way.
I'm not into mods much. By the time they're polished, I've usually moved onto other games. So if the expansions and sequels are that much better, I'm that much happier.
Glad you guys are doing everything you can to make a better game. I haven't been disappointed at all since the 1.1 beta builds started coming.
Peace out from the resident looney,
Savyg
Yep, so far Brad's decision in salvaging Elemental with his choice of people are good in my book. Just look at V 1.1
It's waaaay better than release date version. I'll reserve my judgment on the next expansion to see if hiring Jon was a wise idea or not.
To those who hate him, why not give Jon a second chance? It's not like he caused the death of your family because of Civilization 5. Even then, I still enjoy the game!
There are other worse game sequel that destroyed the franchise you know? *Empire Earth 3, Command and Conquer
So what you are trying to sell us is that Sid Meier, Firaxis, and Jon Shafer have no responsibilty whatsoever for the mess that is Civ 5. I guess it was all 2K! Or should we blame Steam?
A bit off topic from the epic whining. I believe you mean genre not franchise and I believe you are also confusing turn based strategy with real time strategy as both of your examples are RTS while Elemental is turn based more comparable to a game like Civilization which the complaining is about.
I for one am very excited about Shafer joining. I can't believe some of the arrogance and tunnel vision some people who claim to be old and mature show.
Frogboy, I'd just like to say... For every person who is driven away by your hiring of Jon, there is another who looks at your handling of the (admittedly horrible) launch of Elemental and the effort made since, and purchase it.
Between your statements above, your hiring of Kael (a man I have the utmost respect for; Hell, I'm still working on one of the big two Fall from Heaven modmods) and Jon, I will be purchasing Elemental. And I am sure it will be worth it; If not immediately, then after a few patches. Games take time to perfect.
But then, I may be biased. It certainly helps to have some idea of how game development actually works, before going off like the OP did; Hell, I hope to one day soon be doing exactly what you people are doing here. Just need to finish the degree.
Yes. Because issues with a game are always a result of poor design choices. No no, of course it can't be poor or rushed implementation, commands from higher up the food chain, or anything of that nature...
Very well said.
And the whole discussion about the desirability of a good modding architecture... Mods keep games alive. Mods are a source of free content to the community, increased sales for the developer, increased lifespan for the game. Writing off mods as unnecessary is simply ridiculous... Particularly when mods have the capability to save poor games and make them worthwhile.
Your opinion there shouldn't matter if you personally can mod or not, either; Simply because you can't, doesn't mean that others cannot make compelling mods of their own. More than likely mods that you would have fun playing.
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