Since we are talking crossovers with sci fi to sci fi Lets talk babylon 5 and Warhammer crossover

The Imperium would see the Earth alliance as a weak and corrupted by alien influences. They most certainly attack the Minbari but would they have much luck?

http://efni.org/Sharlin.htm

I think a sharlin class cruiser could put some mighty holes in the imperial cruisers providing they don't get hit first. The minbari are known for their stealth technology too.

http://efni.org/Warlock.htm

The warlock class cruisers are 2km long with 10-16m thick plating that is going to take a beating no matter what you throw at it.

I'm going to break it to you as gently as I possibly can. Before I do, you'll notice some of my math seems off. It's because I'm using "significant figures", wherein the answer can't have more non-zero numerals than the smallest of the values I subtract/add/multiply/divide. So that would be how I get 800g=8,000 m/s^2, even though 800*9.81=7,848. Mostly I'm using this because I can't really be any more precise if I'm to accurately reflect all this.

The Sharlin is given as 1.5 kilometers in length, and 1.7 kilometers in height. Height-wise, it's probably taller than the average Imperial frigate or light cruiser.

A Cobra destroyer, the smallest warship used by the Imperial Navy of the Imperium of Man, is usually estimated at 1.5 kilometers in length.

The Lunar-class Cruiser, main-line warship of the Imperial Navy, is then scaled to 4 and a half kilometers in length. It's three times longer than a Sharlin, with a commensurate increase in volume. It can hold a lot more stuff, like weapons, engine and reactor systems, and, SHIELDS.

Now, that might not be all that impressive, so what if the main-line Lunars are bigger than Sharlins? Okay, let's talk raw performance.

In the book Flight of the Eisenstein, the Phalanx, a moon-sized spaceship, goes from stationary relative to Earth, to 75% the speed of light, and back to stationary, when it makes orbit around the Moon. That means it has acceleration on the order of 800 g's.

EDIT: Actually, the accelerations in question depend on several variables, and the assumption that Phalanx was decelerating the entire duration it took to make orbit around Luna. The low-end figure is 300g, the high-end is 800g. However, the Phalanx is still the size of a small moon, and by tactical standards very immobile. So the figure I assign to the Lunar is instead of being 20% larger is either 1.2 or 3.33 times the acceleration of the Phalanx. Considering relative sizes, I consider neither to be particularly unreasonable, and in fact find them to be rather conservative in the case that Phalanx has an 800g acceleration.

EDIT 2: Since I was checking up on my sources and such, I found that my initial statement on acceleration isn't all the way correct. The 300-800 g figure is if the Phalanx started out at 75% of lightspeed, and decelerated for the entire trip to Luna. If the Phalanx started out stationary, then the figure moves up to 640 to 1700 g's of acceleration, depending on distance from Luna (the Phalanx started out at the orbital region of Eris, or around 38-98 AU's, or about 91-240 million kilometers). So the figures I used are actually EXTREMELY conservative.

A Sharlin can do 3.5 g's. Note that a g=9.81 m/s^2, so 3.5g= about 34 m/s^2 acceleration, while 800 would be about 8,000 m/s^2.

So, in one second, the Phalanx, a moon-sized warship, can go from standing still, to booking it at 8 kilometers per second (which is about Mach 24). Compared to just over one tenth of the speed of sound for a Sharlin.

Scaling down, and accounting for decreased mass, but also decreased volume for engines and requiring smaller and commensurately less powerful engines, still means that the Lunar can, as a rough absolute minimum capability, pull of 1,000g accelerations.

That make's it about 286 times "faster" than the Sharlin.

Okay, so the Lunar can run circles around the Sharlin. So what?

Let's move on to weapons range. There's two approaches: go by the novels, or go by the tabletop stats given in the Battlefleet Gothic rules. BFG is the space-game version of 40K.

In that, we can get a rough approximation of 1cm on the tabletop equals 1,000 kilometers IRL. Which give's a Lunar-class cruiser's broadside weapons batteries and lances a 30,000 kilometer range. Not bad, but it's about half of what a B5 ship can pull off.

However, the weapons range advantage is totally negated by the mobility advantage of the Lunar-class. A Lunar can easily accelerate to a velocity that allows it to cover 100 kilometers every second. That's an ~10 second engine "burn". Once finished, it hurtles through the void, covering 40,000 kilometers (I saw a 70,000 km range on one of the B5 weapons, I'm simply using that as a ballpark for the Sharlin) in 400 seconds.

That's nearly seven minutes. And that's from a ten second burn. Do a sixty-second one, and the Lunar now covers that distance in just over a minute.

We keep going with the stats->RL units, we find that an old Space Hulk book mentioned a 640 gigaton warhead for a single torpedo. This figure has not been contradicted or retconned at all by current rulebooks and fluff. So we use it.

A Lunar-class cruiser carries six torpedo tubes, firing them simultaneously for a single salvo. In-game, the torpedo salvo is a Strength 6 thing, so a single torpedo equals a single point of Strength.

So, a torpedo salvo from the Lunar gives 640*6=about 4,000 gigatons. A broadside battery has the same level of destruction, as the Lunar has a Firepower (same as Strength) 6 battery on each side. That's not including the Strength 2 Lances. Note that lances differ, as they are heavily penetrative weapons, capable of cutting through heavy starship armor with ease.

All of the B5 weapons that I looked over never climbed the 100 megaton mark. Taking the entire offensive armament of a B5 Sharlin, I'd guess that it's up to half a gigaton.

But this isn't all the calculation we can extract from the BFG stats, no. We can also compute shield and hull tolerances, using the 1 point=640 gigatons mark. A Lunar cruiser has 8 damage points to represent hull durability, and 2 shield points. The hull therefore has 8*640=5,000 gigatons of resilience, and the shields can take about 1,000 gigatons.

However, the shields are unique. Once you exceed shield durability, the shields fail. But, all that firepower hitting the shield creates "interference", which, once the ship is clear of it, the shields can rapidly come back up at full strength.

Note also that Imperial shields can't be knocked down to "40%" or something. Void shields, the type used by Imperial warships, are either up all the way or not at all.

So, using the evaluation based on the BFG game and the few pieces of information that give fairly solid numbers from analysis or straight-out, a Lunar-class cruiser has far greater acceleration, firepower, and durability than a Sharlin. In fact, I'd say that a Lunar could comfortably take down the Minbari fleet that attacked Earth during the Earth-Minbari War.

The only disadvantage the Lunar has is in weapons range, but this is trivial. The Minbari can start shooting first, but they can't do squat to the Imperial warship.

And, addressing the Warlock, while it may have 10 to 16 meters or armor plate, it's also of a fairly conventional material mix that cannot withstand more than megaton-range weapons.

Imperial warships are armored in "adamantium", which is more-or-less a magitech metal that can take high triple-digit gigaton to low single-digit teraton impacts.

You might think that I've been unfair to the Minbari, especially since I haven't addressed the stealth system. However, the stealth system is more or less irrelevant. It comes down to Imperial naval doctrine.

It comes down to "fill the sky with building-sized explosive rounds and 60-meter long torpedoes, and we're bound to hit something". Yes, Imperial warships really do shoot building-sized projectiles, and 60-meter long torpedoes. The torpedo figure is given in the BFG rulebooks, which describe the torpedoes as 200 feet long. Note that actually doing out the math and then rounding for significant figures gives a length of around 70 meters.

So really, none of the B5 races can expect to have any chance at defeating a lone Imperial escort, like the Cobra destroyer, which (using the BFG figures and calcs) has a durability of 640 gigatons hull, 640 gigatons shield, and a 1 teraton (1,000 gigaton) torpedo salvo, plus a 640 gigaton weapons battery.

A side note on the other method: the novels.

The novels and fluff frequently describe combat occurring at the thousands to millions of kilometers distance mark. Also note that torpedoes in BFG are rated not in range, but in speed, 30 cm per turn. It's widely considered that a turn covers about ten-minutes of in-game time, so we can extract something of a velocity figure from that.

30cm=30,000 kilometers, 1 turn=10 minutes, 1 minute=60 seconds, so 30,000 kilometers/600 seconds=50 kilometers per second.

Now, considering the fact that fluff>gameplay/game rules, I think it's safe to discount that figure. Even if we don't, then there's the small matter that Imperial torpedoes are two hundred feet long, and have a measure of guidance. The weapons are also quite well armored.

EDIT 2: the derived torpedo velocity figure is acceptable if taken as acceleration, keeping in mind the maximum 1,000g acceleration I assigned to the Lunar-class cruiser. With a 1700g figure for Phalanx, and likely 5,000-10,000g accelerations for a cruiser, then it becomes somewhat stretched to impossible (10k g's is almost 100 km/s^2, or going from 0 to 60 miles an hour in ~0.0003 seconds. Or three ten-thousandths of a second.).

EDIT 3: also note that 1cm=1,000 km is a bit strained, and doesn't jive well with the novels and fluff depictions of naval combat. I personally consider it more likely that 1cm=10,000 km, which means that the Lunar gains a 300,000 kilometer range for it's weapons batteries and lances.

It also means that a torpedo covers the distance with an average velocity of 500 kilometers per second, if a game turn equals ten minutes. I've seen some that consider a game turn to be ten seconds of real-time, which means that that torpedo is really booking it, at 30,000 km/s, which is one tenth of the speed of light. If it is ten minutes, which seems a bit more realistic and reasonable, then, as above, about 500 kilometers per second. If you take it as acceleration (in which case units are km/s^2, instead of km/s), then it handily out-maneuvers a 40K ship, as 500 km/s^2 is around 50,000g's.

Let's see those interceptor guns shoot down something that moves more than five thousand times faster than a Starfury!

As a side note, the Imperial Fury Interceptor is seventy meters long. That makes it seven times longer than a Starfury. Also note that Furies have the same acceleration capabilities as a torpedo (ref: BFG speed for Fury is 30cm, the same as a torpedo), giving them five thousand times the speed! It also means that the Imperium has acceleration compensation equipment, something sorely lacking in the B5 races!

So there you have it. Why Babylon 5 races simply cannot stand up to the Imperium, especially one-on-one.

I looked back over your posts and this rather jumped out at me. Since it's not easy to edit in a new quote and I'm a tad lazy, I'll double-post and deal with it.

So, here's the thing about the Imperium's view of the EA. They would see them as weak and corrupt due to alien influences, but there's also the fact that the Imperium will recognize that the EA has not encountered the God-Emperor's Light.

So they don't know that they're supposed to abhor and kill and purge the xeno. Because of that, it's a bit forgivable. The other side is that the aliens that the EA has fought, only one of them really tried to wipe out humanity, and that was the Minbari.

So the EA would likely get severely reprimanded by the Imperium, primarily through mass murder of high-echelon political and military personnel, but the average citizen will probably be no worse for wear.

In contrast, the Imperium will then go all xeno-purging on the Minbari, and proceed to wipe out the collective groups of aliens in the area that the Younger Races inhabit. Note that, so far as I understand the timelines of the Younger Races, Imperial humanity has had space travel for longer than (likely) most of those species have had industrial, pre-spaceflight government.

The Imperium has probably been at war for longer than some of those empires have even been extant political entities with space presence. I'd guess that the Imperium isn't older than the Old Races like the Vorlons and Shadows, but the sad part is that the Imperium could, to pardon my language, "bitch-slap the hell out of them".

To my knowledge, the Vorlons and Shadows have never shown firepower substantially greater (as in hundreds or thousands of times greater) than the Younger Races. And it would be in the Imperium's best interest to do so. The Vorlons/Shadows are, to some degree or other, manipulating the progress of the Younger Races (which includes humanity), and so, from the Imperium's POV, are "interfering with the ability for Man to fulfill his manifest destiny to rule the stars".

Minbari are dead, because they tried to xenocide (like genocide, only species-wide) the humans. Narn, Centauri, [other B5 aliens here], they're also going to be wiped out, because, from what little I admittedly know about the show, they occupy planets that are favorable for human habitation.

There's even precedence for the Imperium planning to exterminate alien species that posed no threat, but happened to be in the way of some prime real estate. The Tau from 40K. An Imperial exploration fleet finds the Tau's home planet, and the Tau are stone age at the time. They mark the planet for future colonization, declare the Tau to be the worst type of xeno and thus requiring extermination, and then leave.

Cue multiple warp storms to cut off the area from Imperial influence, and then the Tau develop into a tiny, space-flight civilization capable of meeting the Imperium on equal terms in space and on the ground. Note that that's solely in terms of technology, not in terms of overall military capacity. The Imperium would actually wipe out the Tau, if not for the fact that the Tau:

1) inhabit a sphere of space a few hundred lightyears in diameter (tiny empire)
2) there are bigger problems, like the forces of Chaos, the Orks, and Eldar raiders. Oh yeah, and the Tyranids.

As it just so happens, Orks infest the galaxy from end to end, and the Tyranids happen to be invading from the same regions the Tau inhabit (there might be hope that the Tyranids will eat the Tau, or, even better, the Tyranids and Tau will kill each other a lot). The Tau are content to very slowly expand, while the Tyranids are ravenously devouring planet after planet.

On a side note, Shalkto, do you happen to know of a credible B5 space-map? I already know that the Imperium dwarves the collective territories of the B5 powers by a significant margin (Imperium covers the entire Milky Way), but I'm curious as to how the Younger Races' collective territory stacks up to the Tau Empire. My gut says that the Tau Empire is only marginally smaller.

Oh why did he leave?

Ah well...he deleted me from LoL anyway so I havent talked to him in a long time.

You are not my king. You never will be my king.

AVE DEUS-IMPERATOR!

EPIC VIDEO IS EPIC.

Wow, I think Morph must have had some sort of Force Field over the forums...Old posters are coming back in swarms...and new ones(To the chatroom anyway) are coming too...

-Twilight Storm

well, i always make my way back eventually...

SO SAYS THE KING

WUT MARRIAGE?

You'll have to google it guys.

It's an important British marriage, between two important (one really important) British people.

Really guys? I am pretty sure he's talking about the prince.