I finally threw in the towel on Starcraft this week. As a single player game, it’s amazing. Game of the year as far as I’m concerned. It’s multiplayer design is phenomenal as well. It’s the single best game purchase I made in 2010.
And yet, playing online, against humans, has demonstrated why I just cannot stand multiplayer games in general. At various times during the beta I was ranked between "bronze” and “diamond” leagues. In my experience, the difference between silver and gold is pretty small in terms of player quality. Above that, you are starting to deal with a much higher quality of player.
The problem is, at silver and gold levels of Starcraft, the players you’re up against are overwhelmingly “all in” starting strategists. That is, they expect to win or lose the game in the first 5 minutes, which, to me, as a father of 3 nearing 40 years of age, is an anathema. I want to play the damn game.
The key to Starcraft is “scouting”. You scout to try to figure out what strategy they’re going to employ. This works in theory -- if you’re willing to devote inordinate amounts of time to the meta game that is Starcraft multiplayer. The meta game consists of scouting YouTube and various other sites to see what the latest fad opening cheese tactic is.
Playing against Zerg? Check to see if they’re doing a Baneling rush. Mutablob? Or are they going to do the extra roach cheese rush? Or something entirely different.
Playing against Protos? Photon canon rush? remote base? Probe hiding in your base?
Playing against Terran? Mass marine + peon rush? Mass Reapers? Rush for cloaked banshees? Or any of the myriad of other all-in strategies.
Scout. Scout. Scout. That’s the alleged answer but it misses the point. If you want to play the game, counter or no counter you still lose. If you fail to counter, game is over in 5 minutes. If you successfully counter, they quit and game is over in 5 minutes.
I don’t even know what Blizzard could do about this because we are playing two different games. I am playing a game of Starcraft, they are playing the Meta game of Battle.net rankings.
I get more pissed off when I counter all-in strategy than when I fail because I don’t even get the satisfaction of taking the fight back to them. They quit immediately when their all-in attempt has failed and move on to the next game.
But that frustration is rivaled by the feeling that if I don’t want to be victim to the latest all-in strategy I have to keep up with it. The extra Roach trick, for instance, is really hard to spot from “scouting” and very hard to counter (and if you’re wrong about which strategy they’re going to employ – something the “scout” people ignore, you end up crippling yourself).
Probably the only realistic thing that Blizzard could do is have those at Bronze, Silver and Gold Leagues have a somewhat randomize set of start-up conditions so that players can’t literally play out a recipe strategy they read on the net. But I don’t see that happening.
I love Starcraft. I love it so much that I get frustrated that I can’t just get to play the actual game. I’ll have to stick with LAN parties for now I guess.
I like how League of Legends somewhat deals with this, by tagging 'leavers' in relation to their wins. If you leave a game for any reason before it ends, you didn't lose the game, but you get a 'mark' that is far worse than a lost game.'
Recently, they even banned those that had a Win/Leave ratio over 0.45. So everyone who had less than 55% wins in relation to their leaves simply got banned. That's just awesome.
Except that Starcraft has no LAN support.
I still don't see how this makes for a fun game. It is basically you win or lose one shot kill type of thing. No real battle to see who is a better tactician/strategist, no real push to make it feel like the game can go either way throughout the game. This just maybe how I feel about it personally see I'm not a big fan of putting everything into "one final swing" type of play.
Well when you boil it all down, most one on one strategy games are decided after the first major battle whether it's a RTS or a TBS. These games usually involve cascading victories or failures so once you fall behind you usually don't have a chance to catch back up. It's just a question of whether this big battle occurs after 5 minutes like in SC2 or in an hour like when I used to play Heroes 3 online. Either way you usually know who's going to win when it's done and it's not uncommon to see the other person quit.
This is why I like Red Alert 3 better.
It has its own problems though...
All competitive games tend to devolve into this mentality to some level.
My suggestion on a design level is to look at this:
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw
The guy who designed this personality-wise is very similar to you(Brad) in many ways, though I don't think the two of you would ever work well together (the first argument over a Mac would result in murder- you guys would either make an awesome game, or awesome court TV)
He was the designer of the SFII and Puzzle Fighters remake, which is controversial among SF fans, though I'm of the opinion he vastly improved SFII on a shoestring budget.
He describes what you're talking about in the post above as the "slippery slope effect" and talks about the design problems involved. I think in terms of making competitive games, he's probably the best theoretical guy in the business.
the solution seems simple enough, non ranked play.
That is, have the ladder for competitive PvP players, and non ranked play for those who would like to finish a game rather then lose / "win" (via opponent quitting) in 5 minutes.
I would expect things to be even worse in non ranked play. People quitting when they have no chance of winning happens in every game, ranked or not. In ranked play there is at least some incentive to stay in and try to turn things around.
True. If you and a friend agreed to build for 20 minutes before attacking, the same scenario would happen, although maybe you wouldn't feel the frustration that Brad describes when he says he "can’t just get to play the actual game". The slope is still there, and every lost battle ensures that you're less able to fight the next, until you eventually decide to resign. In some games perhaps a cunning strategy can turn the tables around, but at high level play that is very uncommon.
Original poster: If you want to try something competitive and fun, check out League of Legends. It's a MOBA rather than RTS, but the matchmaker's pretty good after the first 20 or so games and you quickly get into repeated fun experiences of 30-50 min each.
That said, MOBA not RTS... but similar!
I saw this coming eventually
It's possible to make an RTS that doesn't have this to a large degree (Kohan), but it's generally a fault of the genre. You're dead right on the 20 mins rule just leading to the same situation- people would generate a rush based on the given rules. This is mentioned in the Sirlin post I made earlier as well.
Besides, if comeback mechanics were too strong (See SF4 ultras)- that tends to encourage negative tactics, or would make initial battles meaningless, which isn't particularly good design.
Honestly, the complaints made by Brad here, sound very much like complaints made by some in the fighting game community- which is another reason why I posted that article by Sirlin. That said, there comes a point where the barriers can make a game unfun, which is why I don't play certain games. Starcraft has plenty of those barriers, some of which are even intentional (SF4 does the same thing, and I consider it bad design in both cases.)
The OP is a little overblown. Im a platinum player and have never seen anyone quit out if there initial rush fails.
YOu might encounter cheese every 1 in 5 games. Occasionally there is a try hard cannon rush but if you scout the 2 or three places and hv good building placement its easily stoppable. Probes can attack too!!!
The frustrating thing about the lower levels is that majority of the time ppl use the same build. Terran it 3 rax MMM 1 base all in. Zerg it fast Roach off 1 base. when you learn to deal with these things you get easy wins rise up the ladder and then start playing the epic 3-4-5 base games that go back and forth and require constant unit composition cahnges and a battle for upgrades. Fighting or watchtower control and battleing it out for specific areas on the map just to gain a small advantage not to actually win the game then and there but to give you the best oppotunity too.
For me, being a protoss player. I have several solid openings that are designed to hold off that INITIAL all in rush. Zerg - 3 gate, with 1 zealot, multiple sentry and mass stalker. This allows you to FF the ramp and hold off roaches with stalkers....NOTE: I only do that specific build if i scout a spawing pool and no expo. Rarely are you able to see the Roach warren start but then if the rush dosnt come expand. Into 6 gate pressure with mass sentry to split there army.
Against terran. 1 gate, robo, FE. Or 1 Gate robo into 3 gate robo. Observer is key to see whats coming.
Cheese is stopable and very satisfying when you do. It took me a while to relise that at ealry levels the best way to avoid the cheese is to chees yourself......then when your in high gold league. YOu can play a "normal" game which is very enjoyable.
At the lower levels, a 3 void ray rush against zerg works 95% of the time. And if it dosnt it induces so much defence that your ground army can stomp them. I have never cannon rushed.....thats no fun, but 4 gateing & void ray rush are the extend of my "Cheese" and they are not really all in plays, as you can transition out of it.
Macro and build order are very important to prevent it as well, scouting is essential, but if you miss it it dosnt mean complete death. Protoss have sentrys to hold the ramp, i suggest you use them to get past that initial crap.
I know at times its frustrating but stick it out. Scout, adapt, and when you get into upper gold the games are very enjoyable. Youll still get cheesed occasionally but it not at the insane levels of the lower leagues. And then the reward for winning is the feeling you get when you have just outwitted your opponent with good macro and a solid unit composition.
The rewards are there, just stick it out and when you get a game where every mineral on the map is mined out and there is one final battle that you win by having one stalker and a Dark tempar left over. Its a very gratifying feeling, 45minutes well spent and a replay youll watch again and again.
Work on it. Love it enjoy it and the game will love you back. Yes some ppl a sad all in losers. Rise above it and enjoy the potential every game bring. Oh, and dont be afraid to bad mouth the CHEESING FKER after you win. Even more gratifying hearing them cry and try justify that it wasnt an all in build. lmfao.
Enjoy, and be sure to smile
Starcraft? Tactical maneuver? It's a bit too simple for much of that. You'd have to actually build up first. When people are doing lame crap rush strategies in braindead RTS games, there isn't anything else to them. You have to build up, get defensive lines, sprawl out across a map first. Only then do you have strategic warfare on a bigger scale where a bit of brilliance in the face of defeat can turn the thing around.
The crux of the problem, they're playing to win instead of enjoying the game itself. A losing battle should be a blast, if it's not you've picked the wrong hobby and need to find something you actually enjoy, like knitting! Back when I was bad news, the most fun I ever had playing RTS games was when I was getting my ass kicked. My favorite people to play were the few who could challenge me seriously enough to stop messing around while not resorting to five minute tactics. The ones who made me work to survive were just sheer fun, I had to turn my brain on if I wanted to keep the game going long enough to have a good go of the systems in play.
Well, Battle.net is a system that encourages that kind of behavior. The only thing that affects your ranking is a win or a loss. Sure enough, people will chase rankings the same way they chase shiny armor in World of Warcraft.
To be fair, I haven't seen all-in strategies being employed very often in high level tournament play (although I don't follow the game too closely, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). These players have the skill to counter any early rush if they see it coming (and they usually do, since they scout very well), making those strategies too high risk to employ at this level of play.
Personally, as someone who only plays casually these days, I prefer the gameplay of something like Company of Heroes (victory points, the way resources work and low unit count).
The problem is that their are different types of people. People who derive fun from winning and those who derive fun from the game itself. And of course there's a whole multitude of people like me who are somewhere in between.
If it is possible for a gamer to derive fun from the game itself and not from winning then I would argue that the game is poorly designed. In fact, I would question whether the player is even playing a game and not simply toying with a map editor. A well designed game motivates the player and makes them want to win in a meaningful way.
Why do you think Tetris, arguably the greatest game of all time, was so popular? Was it because people simply liked playing with shapes and still had fun even when they lost? No. It was because Tetris, like all great games, motivated the player to place the shapes in the right way and ultimately "win" the game (get a new high score). In some ways Tetris is a lot like Starcraft. If the OP were playing Tetris and not Starcraft, I would image he would say:
"I don't like Tetris anymore. In my last five Tetris games I kept getting three of those z-shaped figures in a row. I want to enjoy the game by getting shapes that nicely fit into the holes I make. The only choice I have is to figure out how to make holes that fit the z-shape. But when I do that I sometimes get three square block figures in a row and now my z-shape strategy doesn't work! I hate having to keep up and create new strategies when I get the same shape multiple times in a row! Realistically the only thing Mr. Pajitnov can do is not allow the game to release the same shapes multiple times in a row. That way I can finally enjoy the game and not worry about winning!"
interesting thing in league of legends, if you finish a game you get more points than if you quit prematurely. with extra bonus for "long defense" if you lose / protracted offense if win.
No actually I think it is the game. Blizzard has a history of making games that have strategy tailored to people with ADHD....
Every since Warcraft 2, in 1995 anyway.
Since that time I can't think of a single strategy game they had release that didn't have some form of Rush tactic.... and it also seems that as the designs became more modern the effectivness of "Rushing" increased.
I think that their games` designs encourage that sort of play.
Nothing wrong with that, I am just not in thier marketing "target group", and don't buy thier games (at least not since Warcraft 3).
I pity you. A lot.
If you didn't enjoy playing Tetris, torturing yourself for countless hours on end simply to achieve a high score no one will ever care about, you are one poor bastard. Thinking like this makes those morons that do stupid shit to get into Guinness look really smart. At least they get their name in a book, immortalized in history as the rejects they were.
If you just want to challenge yourself, hold your breath.
I think you are one of those win/lose players then. I lose games all the time and still enjoy them. I don't have to win a game to like a game. Hell I might not even become good at a game but still play it. It's about fun, not winning and losing for some of us. There is nothing poorly designed about a game that people enjoy whether they lose or win. I think you completely missed point on this one.
@OP:
Scouting is important, but what's more important is just knowing what your opponent's race can throw at you and coming up with a build that can deal with all/most of it.
Starcraft 2 is not a "counter" game. It's not about playing passive and reacting to your opponent's build to "counter" it. If you want to play a long game, learn what each race's early rushes are, and come up with a build that can beat them back. If you know at ~6-7 minutes you can have a pair of cloaked Banshees in your base, make sure you either have an Overseer, Raven, Oberserver, or stationary defenses ready for when they come. If playing against Terran as Protoss, build a Stalker early to kill that scouting/harassing reaper (with the nerf on how fast a Terran can get a reaper out, this is easy now). If playing Protoss vs anything, if you're worried about early aggression, work in a couple Sentries early on so you can keep your ramp forcefielded. As Zerg against Terran, always assume the Terran will go for Hellion/Banshee harass. Extra queens counter both, and then you can use them to spread creep everywhere.
You don't have to actually *scout* any of these things, you just have to know that they can happen and prepare for it. There are few truly "all-in" strategies out there. If it seems that way, it's only because their initial harass succeeds brilliantly and they can finish off the game. If it fails and they leave, well, that just means they suck and they didn't have a plan past the early game.
In summary: scouting is very important, but it's not everything. Having a strong build that is flexible to deal with a wide array of early pressure that's possible from your opponent is of much greater benefit than knowing what your opponent is doing at any given time.
It's a problem with all online games, though worse with RTS'. You have a small group of people who want to play, and you have a much larger group of people who just want +1 win as fast as possible. Too many fun games have been reduced to shit by a player base that use 5 minute win cheese tactics, every day, every game. The age of a game doesn't seem to matter here. Regardless of how old the game and how small the playerbase, you STILL seem to run into more people who just want to win ASAP.
The only solution is to play with friends, or play in unranked games where you are more likely to find people who actually want to play. I can't even remember the last time I played a game of 1v1 ranked. In 2v2 and 3v3 with friends you tend to at least be guaranteed a 15-20 minute game.
I don't really understand any of it. If there's a cash prize for being in the top 3, then sure. Do what it takes to win if you're aiming for that. But in most games I've played, people don't respect the #1 player. The #1 player is usually just infamous for abusing a cheese tactic when something was badly imbalanced. That guy with the 400-10 record? Yeah, nobody is buying that skill got them there.
You are exagerrating. I don't know of any game where cheese tactics have unequivocally reduced it to "shit". Any game with a half decent development team will root out and fix any imbalances that truly pose a threat to the well-being of the game. The cheese tactics that you are talking about are just...regular tactics. It is true that games played between less-skilled players will tend to end fairly early due to cheese but that is simply due to a lack of skill. At higher levels of play cheese diminishes in frequency and simply becomes another opening with its own risk/reward ratio.
That's a popular solution. I would argue that a better way to experience 20+ min games is to learn how to beat cheese and become a better player. As you climb the ladder you will play better and better players and end up having beautiful games that transition out of a cheesy beginning and into 40+ minute matches. This is exactly how a lot of pro matches play out.
I don't think that's the case. Using wins/losses to measure skill is the best way to do it. How else can you measure skill?By playing custom games called "4v4 BGH no rush 30 minutes"? Yeah right.
This really isn't the case in SC2. It probably helps that there's nothing "badly imbalanced" to abuse at this stage. In all the big "pro" events with money involved the last matches tend to be pretty hard-fought and the winners (and losers) are pretty well respected. Just this weekend Sweden hosted DreamHack 2010, with I think about an $18,000 USD prize pool for winning the SC2 tournament. The finals were best-of-5, played out all 5 matches (one player won first 2 matches, other player won next 2 to tie the score, so the 5th was the final round) and included several 30+ minute games.
The problem is not with the game itself, but really with the way the ladder system is set up. People who want to move up the ladder need a lot of wins and points, and the fastest way to advance is to get fast wins. Couple that with the fact that a lot of players in the lower ladders have trouble defending early pressure turns what's normally considered harassment into a quick win.
There are "safe" and "unsafe" builds, and when the "pro" players lose quickly, it's usually because they lost gamble: they tried an unsafe build for an advantage, and got caught with their pants down.
This whole thread is full of people who miss the point. Its almost as if he is trolling them (like usual). So many people saying "The way to play is like *THIS*" when the problem is that not everyone has that opinion, not everyone finds that fun.It doesn't matter the game, I see it in every (public at least) multiplayer environment I've been in. Mossie farmers vs outdoor infantry imbalance in planetside, the large game vs the quick game in civ (thanks for no animations in multi civ5...), "i just want the last boss" vs "I need all bosses" in WOW dungeon finder. These are some that I've run into personally.When people with different goals are put in the same camp, somebody isn't going to have fun. The only real solution is to split the game up into different parts for different playstyles or get into a very heavy balancing act.Also losing dosn't really effect the game for me if the game is FUN. Just the other day I was pushing into a town in arma 2, out numbered and running out of ammo I lost too many men and had to retreat, this was a 2 hour battle that (thanks to dispersion mods) felt like a news video from some Eastern European war. So fun!
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