You are a channeler. You are the lord and master of the pure magical elements. Fire to melt a man's flesh off his bones. Water to call tsunamis and level cities. Earth to crack the land and send armies tumbling into great crevasses. Air to summon tornadoes to tear apart cities and show your domination over the skies. You are near godhood. You can take on entire armies by yourself, smash titans back into the ground, slaughter the Fallen like lambs...
Or you know, walk around casting +1 Production per Turn on all your cities. Because that's the vastly superior position for your magical character to be in because Elemental's magic sucks. It really does.
This is a problem that has been mentioned since mid-beta. Elemental's magic system is vastly inferior to a game that doesn't even have a third axis! (And to what Elemental is supposedly a spiritual successor of.)
Master of Magic had (and still has) people enthralled. Do you know why? It's primary feature (which is in the title like Elemental's is) was amazing. It was awe inspiring. It made you feel like a Master of Magic. A wizard playing at the top of your game, taking on your foes with hordes of minions and magical spells cast from across the world.
I have to say, some of the stuff I did in Master of Magic gave me a bit of a nerd boner. In Elemental War of Magic, we instead get the stuff that only gives severe lovers of mechanics boners. My god! Look at that, I can fill up all my enchantment slots (another poor idea, really sorry to the guy who thought this up, but it was a step in the wrong direction) with +1 Production per Turn! It's like a girl having a really sexy name like Cassandra or something and then her turning up at your house and being a bloke. It might be nice for someone, but it's not what I'm looking for.
Let's take another game as an example: Dominions 3. This isn't particularly my type of game. I'll be perfectly honest, it's not the right sort of turn-based strategy game for me (I prefer 4X, where it's more of a wargame), but I was willing to buy it for one single reason.
The magic system was fucking awesome. Armies of the dead raising from your land every turn. Using magic to turn every certain kind of magic spell into an EXCESSIVELY deadly game of chance. Single, otherwise pathetic, units standing against armies simply because they're buffed with enough magic to smash the world.
It's beautiful. It's a wonderful experience. It's like autocratic crack. It makes you feel so powerful (imagine Black&White, only more awesome) that it's sad that it's on such a poor graphical level. I heartily suggest you all try the demo (especially the magic!) and see what you think of it.
Elemental simply doesn't hold up to that. People are willing to forgive a lot if you engage their fantasies of being powerful, and Elemental simply doesn't do that. Elemental simply doesn't do a lot of things.
Make magic feel like magic, instead of feeling like we're playing with the numbers on a spreadsheet, for god's sake!
Make the War of Magic be the WAR of MAGIC.
God damn it, guys, I suck at game design and I know this much.
Games are for fun. They're meant to engage people and make them enjoy themselves (usually through delusions of grandeur and powerplay, but screw it). If you're not doing that, they're going to call your game a piece of crap and they would be right to do so.
P.S. I know I'm going to be said to be being stupid and not being constructive or some crap like that so I'm going to post some things that could be changed, too!
Namely, shards. Shards, as they are in Elemental now, are the dullest pieces of shit in the world. They're supposedly raw conduits of elemental power and they just sit there looking stupid? No way. Do something with them. Don't just make them resources to hold from other players. They're dangerous, they're deadly and they should be acknowledged as such. Make them explode, giving everyone in the world one (or two!) more shard-power. Shards were just the beginning of the troubles, however. Just read this.
Spells are buggered up. Volcanoes should be THE VERY LEAST of our abilities. They should be the base from which everything else comes. Make us capable of casting a spell that starts blowing up all terrain outside people's borders. It changes the gameplay completely (no ability to expand due to GOD DAMN VOLCANOES) so players feel powerful and gameplay changes as the game carries on.
What I'm saying is that ALL SPELLS SHOULD BE OVERPOWERED. They should be dangerous. They should regularly bite the hand that feeds them. They should destroy vast swaths of terrain. Spell casters should be deadly and not pussies stuck at home filing away bonuses.
YES I KNOW THIS IS BARELY COHERENT BUT I'M SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSEDLY EXPERTS AT GAME DESIGN NOT REALISING WHAT IS WRONG WITH ELEMENTAL'S GOD DAMN MAGIC SYSTEM FOR GOD'S SAKE GUYS JUST LOOK AT IT IT'S FUCKING DULL
Look I like the game, aside from perhaps too slow a pace of early game, maybe too weak AI, and a feeling that wandering monsters are the real enemy, but honestly, the magic system has been weak for while.
Aside from single target damage, a variant single target spell, and AoE damage and some 2D town buffs, there is just Teleport and Summons atm, 1.09n has brought in some meaningful combat buffs and some flavour to the game, but it's still not there yet. And we had release months ago. Pre beta patches it was pretty weak, during beta patches it is getting there.
The magic system is improving, but it's not balanced or deep or interesting. I think that perhaps withAutarkhos' tone people could be in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
(Edited: to remove some unintended hyperlink weirdness.)
If I ever get around to moding(I've been putting it off for months because of work), I want to try and make a spell that lets me summon the friggin Devil, beat him to an inch of his life, and make him my servant.
Unless of course Stardock does it first. I won't mind. Hopefully after this spell contest ends, there would be a lot more spells in the game. A tone more, useful ones, like Cracks Call
It is a shame the contest form to enter spells has been broken since the 23rd. Stardock is probally missing out of some potentially cool spell ideas.
i can see some of the reasoning in this post, but right now i really think that the magic system is currently on the right track. this is largely an issue of spell selection.
the issue for me is more about the long term effects of endlessly accumulating mana. we've gone from a situation where having as many enchants and summons as you liked had little to no consequences, to a situation where you can only physically have a few of these without shutting mana gen to a trickle. if mana endlessly accumulates then every single spell cast has long term consequences. to be competetive in the mid to late game you should have spent the early game aquiring a massive mana stockpile. using enchants and summons in the long term can prevent this entirely. what's more if you go on a massive mana spending spree at any time, you will put yourself at a disadvantage to the rest of the game. in the next war you will always be however many points you spent behind your competitors. we've created a situation where players never use their mana because they're saving it all for a rainy day.
the immediate solution would be faster generation across the board, and a separate stat that determines the maximum amount of mana you can stockpile. but imho this is a crude solution. it works best to my mind if you regenerate mana along a non linear formula like this:
where x is turns and y is mana. the equation is mana = max mana x (1 - e ^ (- game constant x turn number))
this way mana regenerates at a decreasing rate until it reaches your max mana. the higher your max mana, the faster the generation. you increase the max mana with every shard you own, for some unique buildings. every summons or enchant reduces it slightly. this has a lot of advantages over linear regeneration (ie, +5 regen for shard, -2 for a summon) in that it's impossible to give the player negative or static regen if they summon too much. you can be a lot more finely graded since you're dealing with bigger numbers and set it up so there is a lot less of a difference between a mana maint of 1 and 2. and in the mid game you can have 10 summons (so long as you're fine with a small mana pool that regens slowly). it also favours people who actually use the stuff because users get faster regen, rather than stockpiling mana (though that is still a good idea to an extent). finally it governs both the size and the pool and it's regen in a single stat. you can modify the game constant with the "game speed" set-up option too.
Good point, but another solution would be to split the mana into different categories (Earth, Air, Water, Fire, Life, Death) and to reduce the mana cost of all spells, because if a player depletes one mana pool he would have still the others.
would be nice, although at the moment the system seems to be moving away from the elements; at least half the spells i seem to be learning/casting seem to be non elemental. so what do you do then? have a separate generic pool? take equally from all the pools? you still have the problem of endless accumulation even with separate pools; unlike with gold or other resources, with mana you are very rarely "spending money to make money," so endless accumulation means you are always best saving if there is any other way.
Oh, moving away from the elements is the wrong direction, because that should be the focus of the game. Instead of casting the spells from a seperate pool the spells could be implemented in the elemental spellbooks, as suggested here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/400657/page/1/#2830349
I won't say it sucks but given the aforementioned sov description I have to wonder why this "resist" persists for minion peons v. a kick ass sov. I must confess that I am feeling like Black Knight feels about the teleport issue. I keep harping on it (like my wife harps on me for playing the game & when I'm not I'm on the forums ) I can grasp the resist in theory but at a certain point the unit has to take SOME damage---very rarely the case in my experience.
Which presents a quandary for me---my magic use thus far has been more passive/defensive with the bulk of my offense coming from melee units because I am running into a one step up above a peasant unit that can resist offensive spells/dragon breath/arrows/catapults---why spend the mana for a fire spell that has no effect? I'd like a more clear-cut choice in the manner in which I kill. In an encounter with an Obsidian Golem---I saw immune. I get that--not a problem--but a guard unit??? idk..just venting.
Anyone else frustrated by this?
Yes, why would ordinary units have so much magical resistance, especially when the high level offensive spells cost so much mana? I'd much rather resistance be a special ability that only applies to certain monsters or at least only apply to regular troops at a much slower rate than currently. What do others think?
Best regards,Steven.
I really like this idea. It makes a lot of sense. Mana shouldn't just build up forever and it should be faster at lower amounts otherwise it is like you said, everyone just hording mana for a raining day. What fun is that?
[quote]I'm just glad magical resist is there, even if it is flawed and needs more appropriate use and better balancing.
Good point--I'll buy that. I'm sure it will balance out. As it is, I just use different tactics to get around it.
I'm leaning in that direction---I don't think I've played enough to decide though I am not using magic anywhere near as much as I did in the previous version--at least in the offensive sense.
Some dev (cant remember which) said resists arent final and they are still working on it. It was in one of the dev journals.
So i think it will get replaced by a new / different / better balanced system, sooner or later.
Didn't read all the replies but I do agree with the OP, even though he could have done without the capitalized, bold lines at the bottom.
It would be nice to start seeing some big changes / additions to the magic system. It would be great to be able to become a powerful Wizard, able to conjure up massive, powerful creatures and amazing spells that instill fear in your enemies.
I'm hoping to see something of the sort in the future. That, and a good AI, would be a big step in the right direction.
Well.. .I have to agree. I've now played a good few games.. and even when I can walk around with 'just' my sovereign.. who CAN wipe out an army solo fairly easily.. it just doesn't have the 'epic' feel of MoM... with the world-altering spells. the few city-enhance/detriment spells ARE boring. deadly so. The only one I bother with is the food one, because I expand FAST early on. I'd never get far without Nature's Bounty.
I also miss being able to design your own equipment like in MoM... ie, the magic items. The ones they give, while somewhat useful, are just so very cookie cutter, and very few of the quest-reward items are very different save VERY few. (I've only found 2 or 3 worth the quests)
And yes.. each champion's mana should have a way to go up more than just 1/turn.. (or 2 with the one building). Hell. You'd think if you just sat a guy in place a while (guard perhaps) that they could sit down and meditate or somesuch to gain mana faster.
Since most of my sovereign's 'kids' have the 'restore mana/life' during combat bonus (NO idea where, but I love it), I've been known to give them move-boosting stuff, and just run circles around a weak enemy when they'r nearly out of mana.
By the way... WHAT is the difference between the spells 'Teleport' and 'Teleport friend'? Whenever I cast the first one.. the whole army goes anyway. And the 'friend' one seems no different.
it would be nice if you could teleport to some variable open spaces.. instead of 'just' back home.. sometimes expanding out on a large map takes literally hundreds of turns. (lots of forests or such in the way)... While I'm not saying a teleport to 'anywhere' on the map you've explored... one that maybe jumps you 25-50 squares or so would be nice.
And yes, the lack of spells once you hit the spell-level 8-10 range is... silly. there seems to be 1 or 2 summon-unit spells that high up... and that's it.
And having all three 'other' spellbooks all at one 'tech' level is a bit odd.. spread them out a BIT more.. or make each one separately researchable (I tend to start my sovereign with all 5 'starter' spellbooks)
First off i have to say that the tone of the OP is seriously out of order. Don't do that, the devs are trying their best to listen to us and improve E:WOM so that it becomes what it should be.
That being said though I have to agree with the OP on the fact that magic is taking a backseat in this game, and it shouldn't.
This is elemental: war of magic. Not civ stuck in the medieval period, which, to be honest, is how it plays right now.
It's fun, but it doesn't live up to its name and it just doesn't compare to MoM. yet...
/rant on
The main gripe i have with magic right now though is that I feel that I just can't have a sov that's completely focused on magic instead of combat.
I want to play an all powerful caster that's thrown out all pretence of the art of the sword in favor of more power and understanding through wielding the full force of the elements against his foes. And i just can't do that, low level magic is horribly under powered and you get forced into using conventional weaponry just to compete..
/rant off
To fix this i make two suggestions:
-Make low-level magic competitive with low-level weaponry in damage throughput
-Give mid-level magic more oomph, as the OP said fire and brimstone should be child's play by the end game. By the end game (if we focused on magic) we should have the power to turn entire armies to dust and scar the world itself.
Oh and let us cast heal outside of combat.. seriously.
*spellchecked*
In the original post, it was said that magic needed more magic. He put it down saying as that all you can do with the magic system is encant for +1's, and other magic that is completly unchanging/important.
Note, it is a RPG, meaning that you will otherwise start out low and slow and gradully gain mana until after 100 turns, then (depending on how you leveled up your tree) You will be able to do much with magic (EX. turn land into mountains, cast powerful spells damaging several opponents, (and my favorite) summoning several monstersto wipe out opponents and destroy entire factions.) In less than 200 turns, altar' sovereign, on novice, had a base attack of 21 with a base defense of 9. (very high attack as a individual.) Also, much technology for anything was lost, including magic.
As some magic needs to be improved. (Early spells later on, healing, and animation, ETC.) The magic system is actully pretty good. {No, I have not read all the replies, nor played BETA. But yes played a full game.}
That's not a rant at all. It's a reasonably-put version of a not uncommon critique of the game so far. The tone of the OP might be less than constructive, but the title of this thread is a rock solid statement of the game's core weakness, at least for the part of the audience who took the "magic" part of the game's title seriously.
Somehow, they still won't break down and design the basic metaphysical framework for the game. Instead, we're getting stunningly mundane 'improvements' like a Mobility spell book. That reeks as much as the gamiest hunter returning from a week in woods with no water for bathing. I'm convinced that the reason there's still no set of viable paths to magical supremacy is because the magic system is being thought of only in terms of the visual effects and raw combat mechanics, when it needs to be thought of as a set of fundamental rules about how the world of Elemental works. Whether "integrated physics" is a co-equal set of rules or whether magic is indeed the more important rule set is a debate we've been unable to have because the magic is still not really magical. Especially for those of us who have little or no interest in the 3D views of the game.
Now that was a rant
And of course, being Australian I must add,
"That's not a rant, THIS is a rant!"
That's true, I think the design philosophy would help by establishing some 'rules of magic' for the fiction.
If anyone remembers the TV Series Gargoyles, my favorite set of rules is:
-Energy is energy, whether be it from Magic or Science
-Every Spell has a counter and reverse
-(Not really a rule of magic) Iron is lethal and binding to the Fae folk
Stuff like that. Elemental might benefit from a Chinese Style/Avatar The Last Airbender style 'elements' guide
-Fire is damaging and fast, with direct damage spells that pose a risk for the user to use
-Air is quick and defensive. Spells like blink go here, and some of the better overland travel spells
-Water is healing and flexible. Water spells have multiple uses when cast on different targets. (Heal/Buff on friends, Damage/Curse enemies)
-Earth is strong but immobile. These spells manipulate terrain. Direct damage spells take longer to cast, buffs cause targets to be slower or immobile.
Other stuff
-Death is principally damage over time, and enchantments that raise cheap undead minions. Death is a great 'reversal' tree, in that the more a loser loses, the more powerful his magic gets.
You get the idea.
Maybe magic has global effects, such as those who are exposed to it the most are affected the most (or least). Maybe demons/summons are vulnerable to weapons made of iron (read, require steel). Except, that is, for earth summons.
Riding this, Intelligence and Charisma should have combat effects. Maybe Charisma gives a combat buff to troops, and Intelligence a bonus to overland move. Or maybe Charima lends to offense, Intelligence defense. Something that makes non-spellcasters with these traits more valuable in the field.
speaking of the schools/elements of the magics...
1) If you don't start with all the books of magic (the 5 you can start with), what does it take to get them? I just unlocked the life/sorcery/combat books, but still haven't been able to study/research the 3 elemental books i didn't start with (I took enchantment and fire to start. as fire does just do good damage)
2) Yes, most spells do or should have counter. Not that big a stretch... also.. yes I've seen monster/npc units be able to dodge 5 spells in a row (I get 'miss' over and over), yet I've NEVER seen one of my champions/Sov/units ever dodge a 'spell', like the tangle-web.
3) Yes, Heal should be both an in-combat and out-of-combat spell, as should mass heal. Having only one for each like that is silly. if someone casts an area of effect on my group.. I don't want ot have everyone endlessly casting heal on themselves and each other. A Mass-heal makes sense in combat.. just as a regular makes sense out of combat. Only one guy got hurt, why should I have to cast Mass heal?
4) This one is actually in counterpoint... But The fire spells, ESPECIALLY if you have any fire-shards.. do tons of damage. With just 2 shards and an Int of around 15.. The base damage is in the 20's usually for Infernal.. Groups don't last long against that
5) Need a better way to regen mana. At least for imbued champions and the SOVEREIGN.. Come on, the most powerful 'unit'/char in the game.. cannot do more than 1/turn without a special building? Whereas (for me at least) EVERY SINGLE CHILD/GRANDCHILD/ETC has both regenerate health AND mana even in combat... That's just silly.
6) Back to the books.. I agree, the three you can learn (and I don't ever recall seeing a death-magic book by the way), shouldn't all open up at one research level. Perhaps the ability to research the books themselves would make more sense. Especially as almost all I have left to research now is just the next level-up spells.. and I'm at 9 or 10.. And with only 2 books (Fire and Enchantment), there's almost nothing added at that high level.
I have a few problems with this post I suppose, i'm not an expert on game design nor do I know the answer to everything...I understand the dislike of tedium in these games to alot of players, while you may not enjoy giving your people a +1 enchantment to food production to me it makes me feel like an apocalyptic leader. What you call "mechanics" are all part of running your empire-People need to eat and with your magic you can infuse these plants and crops to go faster.Just as well another flaw I see is the fact that you want us to basically throw nukes at eachother every turn or summon giant goliaths of world crushing doom and have epic ass battles with solar flares and spirit bombs. You're a new channeler-you just discovered you can manipulate magic. I imagine this takes quite some time to master---However I do agree that Elemental really needs to shape up with their graphics. A firestorm in my eyes is not an opaque curtain of fire, but wrather a shimmering inferno of anger!I've yet to try the new patch yet (In exams) however the changes look lovely.Long Story Short, I don't want this game to become all power play but at the same time I want to be able to work up to and earn those epic spells and enchantments.
I agree, but that's not the point.
We shouldn't just be given ultimate power at the start of the game. But the spells, as they are, are still boring.
I researched up to spell level 12 in my last game and I still only bothered to take teleport and heal. I had three fire shards and the fire book, but nothing really piqued my interest.
The problem mostly lies in the fact that magic is incredibly homogeneous. Seen one spell that does X damage over unlimited range seen them all.
Here's what I would do if i had Brad's power over the dev team:
I'm glad im not playing the beta, I'd just be pissed, but I am not. I am remaining hopeful that SD Devs and Kael will come through. They had better be listening to all this great *AHEM* FREE feedback (from those of you playing and commenting) on their beta and get it right for 1.1 or its the last money I'll have spent on a SD product.
I recall in MOM while you were a character, your character did not take form in the "gameboard" itself, you sent forth your minions to do your deeds and you supported their efforts when needed or desired via magic.
I recall in AOW that you had a in game mobile character that was for all intents kept in a tower as it really hamstring your domain and power to not be.
We do not need a Sov to be going around rambo-ing the game world in a spiritual successor to MOM.
Disagree with the ramboing comment from Gene1966. I LIKE the fact taht you can go around 'ramboing' as a soverign. Would would be crucial would be a choice, for there to be an advantage to staying home as well. This would be....
WIZARD TOWERS! Ala AoW2! By keeping your soverign at home, he has massivily incrased spell range (like anywhere in your terriroty), plus esence production. This would
a) give a soverign a REASON to stay home and govern a high-level city and his empire, sending out children and champions
make 'overextending' yourself an option were the soverign cannot leave home without losing enchantments if you cast too many
c) reward for having a high-level city(can only build in level 4 or above). This makes a soverign a 'questing hero' in the beginning of the game, and mage-king by the end
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