Today we’re talking about different ways we can streamline the creation of resources. A long time ago, we wanted to put in a system where I could mine ore which could be turned into ingots and so on. Basically, one resource being turned into another resource.
I have three thoughts:
1) Separate weapon/armor/accessory production from Unit production. Armaments should be a global resource. A sovereign should be forced to forecast or at least be relatively prepared for future unit production.
2) There should be an incredible wide range of resources that relate exclusively to the production of armaments, with a wide range of "recipes" for the production of armaments to match. Some of these resources should be mined from static resources on the ground -- others from the legion of random monsters roaming the countryside. The armaments should require strategic decisions as to the role of the soldier as opposed to load up a unit with as many badass armaments as possible.
3) A unit should somehow be much more than the sum of his armaments + an hp bump as a result of additional training.
You're right, it's not complex at all. You dump a few hundred hours into coding a resource management system that automates it, and your forges take the raw ore and make it useful without anything done by you besides building the crap you already have to build now to get gold, material and metal...
If anything, in my opinion, you need more rare resources (like crystals!) to truly set units apart. These rare resources could be used to produce unique units - just like crystals, but they could add items that give the unit special abilities (passive or active).
This is a paradoxical argument. You say the game has more pressing concerns than a complex resource system, and then you request one.
But how you say? You asked for more rare resources to truly set units apart. You're dissatisfied with "only upgrading a peasant" and wish for a more interesting end result than 12 units of full plate cavalry.
The solution is an actual production system where making full plate knights is a major undertaking. One where you can take that plate armor and send it to an enchanter that makes enchanted armor with special abilities. Burning blades, regenerative armor, magic resistance, weapons of apocalyptic proportions. You can't do it simple. You get what we've got now. Insane training times and expenditures in a futile attempt to make them something other than the only choice.
We do need a combat system worth using of course, this MoM lite nonsense we started with is grossly insufficient to the task, but combat builds off units, and units build off the economy. Systems of increasing complexity result in balance problems. It's why RTS games always turn to crap. Simplified economies cause idiocy like rushing, single unit spamming, etcetera, while simplified physics lead to horrendous imbalances in ranged power depending on scale.
I think a lot of people are ultimately missing heavenfall's point about units and most of the resource chain ideas which have been put out there. The issue that Heavenfall is talking about is the idea that unit's ultimately lack diversity and so the best strategy is simply to mass produce the best unit you can as fast as you can. If you consider that, all weapons/armors are basically the same but with different stat boosts, each unit you build is just another "upgraded peasant". The real challenge for tactical combat and ultimately the fun of the game is to add combat roles which diversify the combat experience. If you consider AOW as an example, each race has 4 tiers of troops, yet there is not an inherent advantage to simply building tier 4 troops. At each tier, different units are given to the player which augment the kinds of strategies which are employable by the player. This is something that should be carefully considered and implemented into Elemental, as it is this kind of diversity which gives different players the ability to utilize strategies beyond a simple mix/max.
The second point he made about rare resources is not a push towards a complex resource system but a valid point about limitations on building super units. There is no need to make a incredibly complex resource/improvement system, when this entire process can be abstracted by the use of multiple rare resources. Consider, if one wants to make a enchanted swordsman, it might cost crystal and a rare fire mana resource. This would place an non arbitrary limit on your production of these units, while also promoting diplomacy or land wars over these scant resources. If you look at reality, it is this idea of resource scarity which has driven nation's to war and peace.
In general, I am actually not a fan of global resources. While our world does in fact have semi global resources, this is a fairly modern invention based upon an established infrastructure of trade. Once possible, I would love to make a mod where all resources but gold become local, yet resources can be moved via caravan from one place in an empire to another. I think this would be as complex a resource system as I would like.
While that's certainly true, I think the same is true of a lot of systems in the game. Adventuring and quests could be bigger then it is now. Tactical battles certainly have a ton of room for improvement, as does unit creation and the magic system. Given that we have limited developer resources (and have hopefully now put to bed the pre-release idea that game development is 90% engine and 10% game and that this stuff is easy to get right), I'm not sure a highly complicated economy is the place to direct the most attention.
Or maybe it is. I'm still confused about just what direction they want to take the game because of how cryptic the OP is.
Cool.
That could work. If we're going to go with a more complicated underlying system, I hope it makes for better parallelization of production when it comes to units. It irks me right now that I've got one town doing all the work for 20 turns of creating armored mounted units, while 4 other towns are basically sitting idle doing nothing. Why doesn't one of them train the horses, another one make the weapons, a third make the armor, and the last do the troop training?
And while we're on the subject, what if you could give attributes to normal equipment (and to units), at extra cost? Say I want to make guys with swords and armor, but for this group I want to use my stash of 5 fire crystals to add a +2 Flaming enchant to the swords. Wouldn't it be cool if when designing the unit I could just take a list of available bonuses from the resources I have now, and drag and drop them into the list? (You could do the same with skills, and say that for 10 extra turns of training I want to teach these guys First Strike.)
I think that stuff like that is a way to boost the interesting things the player can do and provide a place for rare resources without necessarily over-complicating the game. If I say I want to make guys with +2 flaming swords here and train them in X, the AI can figure out which of my cities can make those swords and ship them over in the least time while this city is busy doing the training part of it (and also get the fire crystals to where they need to be).
That also gives my opponents a way to stop me from making those guys, by intercepting the swords either by taking the city that is making them, or by cutting off the supply line.
Hey here's an idea. Why not make resources (except gildar and materials) limited? When you have mined all the iron in your mine you will need to find more elsewhere. Also, when you win a battle you get to recycle the equipment of your opponent. Say if a unit cost 1 iron to build, you scoop that iron up from the battlefield in loot. Or if you like, scoop up a percentage of that 1 iron.
There could also be a "monster blood" resource you get from killing... well monsters. Or more rare things, like dragon scales etc. In that way you can combine action elements with resource gathering and then be able to build a few unique units.
What I'm trying to say is, perhaps you can develop the resource system by adding more ways of aquiring resources? Without turning it into grinding of course...
No. Just no. Limited resources are either no fun or the amout availible is so high there might as well not be a limit.
But it does make unit design more interesting, since you might actually have to design and build units that does not have the best armor or weapons.
And maybe new resources could be found by research (as we already can), by casting spells or by doing quests?
And intermidiate units that use the limited resources but do not have the best of everything will not get made unless it cannot be avoided. And there may not be any of it left by the end of the game, at which point a the things that use it will be unavailible.
I don't think this post accurately depicts the real tone of the current mod community, with respect to resources. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that improvement and resource chaining is already possible in Elemental and the mod community has already begun to exploit resources as workarounds for other mod limitations. As a modder who has spent alot of time working with custom resources, I can easily say the the problem is not Clay Pits and Forests all return some abstract resource "Material". If you really wanted to make a more complex system, simply mod your clay pits to give a clay resource instead of a material resource. Then add a couple of buildings with a clay requirement and you have the beginnings of any kinds of wonderous resource/improvement chain you would like. The real problem with resources from the mod side is a set of fairly important limitations from the way other game systems handle resources. These are :
1) Resources numbers should be able to be hidden from various display boxes. That is, If I make a custom local resource to use as a game mechanic and not a direct user perspective, I should be able to hide the resources in the city display.
2) Buildings should be able to have a resource requirement before built or even being shown as buildable. Currently, the game does this for buildings which require other buildings, but not for the requirement of certain resources. I would love to make buildings which are only available to cities with a resource income of type x.
3) Caravans are one resource type units. I would like it if a caravan could be set to import/export resources. This would allow for even more incredible resource chains to be created by modders, who want this type of functionality.
There is a problem with this. Well, at least one, might be more that I'm missing, but anyway...
To make this, or any other type of local resource-chaining work, the Road Pathing for Caravans needs to be improved. Honestly, it needs to be improved anyway, along with the rest of the AI Pathing in the game. Speaking of, off hand, does anyone know the formula and mechanics behind the Caravan bonuses? Sorting that out and finding a way to implement that into any new systems, within reason of course, could be a very helpful jumping-off point for other ideas ya'all might be having.
Caravans do need an overhaul, and that technically is part of an economy system. With more specialized cities, they could definitely play a much more important role. But whatever the case, it's really hard to discuss a caravan system unless we know what we are going to be carting around.
Oh there's probably lots of problems.
If you're going to use caravans to ship stuff around, yeah the pathing has to be right. But given the way roads and trade routes work, it shouldn't be that complicated. All it has to do is go from X to Y across the road network (if possible) or directly (if not possible to use the roads). Units can already path from X to Y directly when you move them, and with so few roads a network traversal to find that path shouldn't be overly complicated.
The other issue is that the caravans will actually have to be fairly speedy on roads to make it matter. Nothing is going to move around if it takes 15 turns to get stuff from one city to another.
Caravans carting stuff around? Nooooo..... (leaps from elemental cliff never to be seen again) Seriously this would be so tedious micro. Having to constantly check which cities have how much of what and moving all those (already disheartening) caravans around each turn with a list of where the dozens of them are going in hand. Nah. And letting wander around by themselves on auto is just a recipe for death. Colonization had this caravan transport idea and it drove me barmy - that was what you ended up spending all your time doing, boring.
Complex resources - yay. But make the choices interesting. Not just iron for swords vs. iron for armor but also iron to make a blacksmith (the anvil ain't made out of wood!), etc. Of course you could have swordsmiths and armor makers - two different buildings...
p.s. On a different note how about getting rid of the ridiculous shop (or balancing it if it's too embedded in the fantasy genre). If I want to give a hero a spear and a padded cuirass currently I'm up for 48 gildar. But to equip a peasent with same it costs me 8 gildar and 5 materials. So 1 material is worth 8 gildars? Come on, a spear's a spear and if I can make them out of materials for my peons I can make them out of materials for my heroes. D&D couldn't do this because you weren't managing cities, sticking to a ridiculous gold only economy for heroes just doesn't make sense.
When you make your ultra rare resource that's required to make the ultra rare equipment, you just end up with something rare. If you make enough of them to give yourself diverse units with different requirements, you end up with map clutter and extreme rarity. You'll have entire games where you didn't see one of them, irritants like that. It's already enough of a pain in the ass dealing with the shard crap. Do you really want entire games hinging on absurdly rare resources you play for hours just to see?
When you have a production economy that builds itself up, you don't have to make something rare. Enchanting armor and weapons to make special items needn't even have other requirements at all. They're simply additional work to create, which makes them costly to your overall ability to equip units. They can be built over time, stockpiled, seized by the enemy, put to use immediately upon forming a unit. When you have actual production of actual products, you can loot those products. No more simplistic loot. Want to spend a fortune making your units invincible? Make sure you don't lose them or your opponent just might be sending a lot of that equipment back at you. You can't do this with a crap abstract either.
Reality is complicated.
@feelotraveller - "Carting" was used as a general term to reference caravans moving resources, regardless of the caravan mechanic. It wasn't meant to be taken literal.
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Just some more thoughts...
With a sophisticated economy, and more defined resources (i.e. not generic), it immediately adds a layer of strategy to the game beyond the economy. Resources in the world immediately become more valuable.
The current system, that clay pit produces materials. It has trivial value to me because I can just settle over here and occupy this forest. However, that same clay pit and forest, when producing clay and wood, immediately have their value increased simply by producing their defined resources (clay and wood are used as an example here). I now need to weigh out making a play against my opponent for that clay pit.
The game is immediately more interesting and challenging simply by adding a more elaborate resource system.
Maybe you could use specialty building placement in proximity to the resource to unlock higher tiers of that resource?
Crystals can be mined anywhere in your domain, and produce generic crystals for generic improvements (like rings, amulets, etc).
If you have the crystal mine in your city, and next to an enchanter's guild, then that city can produce blue crystals (or whatever), which can me used to make enchanted swords for your army (more crystals is higher attack value)
If you have the crystal mine in your city, next to an enchanter's shop AND a magician's guild, you can make red crystals (or whatever), which let you give spellcasting power to your armies (a la priests or magicians); you can add a single special attack to the army units you make there.
Similarly, with food; farm anywhere gets you food. Farm in city and next to a granary gets you pies (or whatever), which increase the attack speed of your troops somewhat, when spent that way. Farms next to a granary and a irrigation get you magic pies (or whatever), which increase the movement of troops built with magic pies.
The general idea is to use Stardock's idea of using the base resources as multiuse building blocks (think population, which can make armies, or specialists, or what have you, provided the correct buildings are in place) as well as the idea of locality on the map, to add some strategic depth to city placement, so it's not all about plunking down forts next to every resource. If you can't build a magician's guild until the city is level 3, then you'll be cautious about where that city is placed to maximize the use of that crystal mine, because not many cities will be capable of making red crystals (due to size and food and all the other limiters).
More concepts I'd like (as generalities)
In the early and mid game, cities cannot make everything. A town might be able to make horses, but not armor (horse but no iron resource within range), or a city may be able to add enchant weapons but not make them (crystals but no iron)
To do that, you'd need a good troop upgrading system, which is something Elemental lacks entirely at this moment.
Let's say every resource provides some unique type of resource - clay from clay, stone from stone, wood from forest, etc. The question becomes how does the game handle all these distinct resources. In general, trying to maintain and balance an economy of over 12 different resources is an tedious experience where by the player is forced to heavily manage his various inputs. This does not even begin to attempt to structure and balance the various game play elements to allow for all these various resources. Would you want a town hall to require gold, wood, stone, metal and clay just to build one of these buildings? What about the various equipment for units? What happens if the player either can find or can't obtain one of these resources? If we look at the civilization series, the number of resources is fairly high but this variety simply masks a set of simple resource abstractions. Cows and pigs are visually different, but mechanically they function based on the same abstracted resource type.
This statement is a matter of taste. If we look at the Total War games, the vast majority of the gameplay revolves around one single resource, being money, and all minor resources work towards the expansion of money. Yet, Total War has a fun system, which both limits the player's strategy as well as abstracts the economy to a manageable size.
If they can't find some resources, they can make use of the resources that they do find. A sword can be made out of items other than just iron. Civilizations use the resources available to them to make the best tools/weapons/armor that they can. This can only be considered a "limiting" or "unbalancing" quality if you choose to look at it like this. Instead, it adds flavor and uniqueness to your empire. A spear can be just as effective as a sword, even if they are made of different materials.
Also, you don't necessarily need to make the game 100% dependant on the resources. Instead, you can use resources to enhance the game and its mechanics.
A guild/black market system was also mentioned where "rare" resources could be obtained, for a price. As long as any player/AI had access to the resource, it would be accessible in time, but at a much higher cost and at limited availability. It's a matter of discussing the topic and flushing out the possibilities.
Other than that, if the implementation feels too unbalanced (balance is not necessarily a prerequisite of excellent turn-based strategy games, by the way), map generation can be configured to help distribute the natural resources. Computers are pretty good at those types of calculations. Personally, however, I don't want my empire to be balanced. I want it to be unbalanced. I want to win the game. If someone has something that I want/need, I have to strategize to take it or find another source or find another solution. Elemental is a tough game set in a tough world, after all.
The idea of this thread is to explore the possibilities. That is what I am doing.
This entire thread is a matter of taste. This discussion is about opinions and the things we would like the resource system to encapsulate. But, you are only half right. The "interesting" description is an opinion. The "challenging" description was proven in my previous paragraph.
You reference Civilization and Total War, With all due respect to you and those games, this is not Civilization or Total War. This is Elemental. A turn-based strategy game in a role-playing world. A "role-playing" world implies a world that is vivacious, interesting, and worthy of exploring. I don't see that now. I don't see that in Civ or TW. I want to see something interesting. This type of system adds uniqueness to Elemental. It attempts to makes the world something more than a generic, vanilla game board that we are sliding pieces over. If I wanted to play Civ or TW, I would play those games. I want something more.
Now, it's nice that you chose two games that fit your argument, but there are other successful and fun games that have more complex economic systems, such as Dawn of Discovery and Settlers, to name two, too. (I threw that last "too" in there just to use all versions of "to/two/too" )
This type of system also adds a lot to the replayability of the game. You never know what to expect around every corner. Is it that resource that you have been looking for to enhance your legion? Right now, there is nothing that adds that layer of wonder to exploration. Now, it's "Yeah, another material resource. Now I can can make those high quality material swords/spears/armor/buildings that I have always wanted." I want to explore beyond that mountain to find that silver mine that enhances my gold mine and mint and give my economy a boost... or I can use that silver to enhance my spears/arrows so they have a keener edge and fly more true. Heck, maybe I can use them against those pesky werewolves that have been plaguing my northern farming village.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to Settlers as successful. Yet, you are right that there are a wide variety of 4x games which utilize an equally varied set of resource systems. Personally, I find Settlers to be incredibly tedious and do not enjoy the complexity of micromanaging bakeries, so that I can make units. However, the reason, which I did not mention Settlers or Dawn of Discovery or Victoria 2 or any number of other games with incredibly deep and complex resource systems, is simply the same point you made about Elemental not being Civ or TW. A lot of people in this thread have pointed at Settlers as a guide stone for the future of resources in Elemental, but if I thought Elemental and Settlers were trying to approach the same type of gameplay or user experience, I would be less inclined to follow Elemental.
This is why I follow Elemental and why I will continue to follow Elemental. Yet, if Elemental moves towards a deep/complex resource system, it will run the risk of moving towards patricians instead of something like AOW.
It has never been said nor implied that players are not intelligent enough to handle a complex resource system. The point that has been made by all proponents of a simpler economic model is simply that these players have limited desire to manage such a system. With respect to complex tech trees and building trees, a player does not need to micromanage these systems per turn, but are managed at milestone points. A complex resource system however has the possibility of needing turn by turn management as well as monitoring of various infrastructure systems. Consider the example of Settlers. In Settlers, the player must monitor the output of numerous interconnected buildings as well as the routes of the various workers for those buildings, as a single disruption of the infrastructure can have devastating effects on game play. As far as I am concerned, the more Elemental moves towards a character/unit centric game the better. Again, it is not that the players are unintelligent, but simply the desire of many players is simply to have a complex and deep character based 4x game.
The thing is, with the quality of AI Stardock provides, they would. The AI is going to use these systems quite well, AI's tend to be good at this sort of thing, and Brad's an exceptionally good AI programmer. Also, it's late game where I worry the most about tediousness. Automation can get rid of some of that, but if it's a process 99% of people will automate, it may need to be rethought as a mechanic (does not mean that it's a bad mechanic, just that you have to think hard about it).
Also, complex does not have to be tedious. I found Victoria tedious, Hearts of Iron unplayably tedious, yet enjoy Europa Universalis- so for me at least, the line falls between those two games. That said, you did think of a good idea- bone swords/spears for civs that lack iron. As for spear/sword/staff- I'd like to see the type of weapon matter more. Playing Din's Curse has given me some ideas for abilities and maybe how to do this also. Complexity in the forms of interactions that are automatic are a lot more fun then microing things left and right.
Each time I post one of these my ideas changes: here's what it's at now.
Base Resources: Materials/ Wood/ Iron / Gold/ Mana/ Horses/ Crystals- that's it. Anything more might be overdoing things. I would dump Wargs as a resource. Horses are too rare as is, and splitting it up makes mounted warfare pretty rare in Elemental. Not to mention Kraxis being unable to use horses is flat-out illogical.
Things such as the clay pit, will provide materials, but also a bonus to building production speed, based on proximity, for towns connected to it via road.
An exchange that can be built by civs mid-game, in order to sell excess resources, and buy surplus, determined by the civs themselves. Maybe this isn't guaranteed to appear in every game, but only if things stay peaceful enough. Resources will fetch something on the market even if no civ wants them (civilians might) Direct trades are still possible, and would be a better return. Ai work may be needed to get this right, but I think Sins did if I recall correctly.
Resources can be consumed to provide advanced buildings.
Example: A Stable produces horses. You could spend horses to get a breeding farm, which could produce racing hoses (more speed) or warhorses (can carry heavy armor troops,)
Example #2: An enchantment shop might require materials+ crystals.
One thing I am unsure on: should these structures have non-gold maintenance costs also? If so, I'd suggest the maintenance costs be based on proximity, to encourage specialization, and maybe to discourage generiknight in Plate+3 with Warhammer #244. Also, troops in the field should require in this case other mainitenance as well, This might encourage the use of cheap peasantry even in the late game, which should be encouraged, and use of the market. Supply trains for armies or magic, along with better roads, could reduce these costs. You want to station that army of elite knights halfway across the map, it's going to cost you hard. Sending a hero and some veterans in leather armor and spears will be more cost-effective- maybe send a caravan also to build some roads. Heroes could have promotions that further reduce these costs, like Animal Husbandry to reduce maintence cost for horses in the stack, or armorsmith for iron, or fletcher for food.
That said: unit creation mechanics need to change to allow for upgrading of units, provided the town is capable of the upgrade. A town with an enchantment shop could upgrade a sword to a sword+2, a town with an armory could upgrade a peasant's club to a sword, leather armor, and shield. This will add micro though- but it already applies to heroes. Item shops in towns woulld also be based on the town itself.
Resource Tiles can be improved multiple times to improve production rates, though this will be expensive in population required and with diminishing returns.
I think what I suggested would be a good for complexity, without adding a ton of micromanagement.
I think this hits the nail straight on the head, but doesn't expand it enough. Resource scarcity is a player problem, not an AI problem. Personally I play Elemental on the harder difficulties where the AI has huge economic advantages. If one attempted to use resource scarcity to promote one strategy or another based upon what resource are near by, the hard difficulty AI would only need a small amount of these resources and their natural bonuses would kick in to fill in the gaps.
I would actually modify this list in some ways to break it into two.Global Resources: Materials/Gold/Mana/Diplomatic Capital
Local Resources: Horses/Crystals/Metal/Population
Under this system, cities would be encouraged to grow and consume scarce local resources instead of merely growing to cover every inch of territory in an attempt to grow the global economy. Each city would specialize and the player would have incentives to actually grow and protect cities which produce specific specialized troops. Consider a city which has horses and metal in its influence. This city could be specialized to produce heavy cavalry units, whereas another city which has crystals could produce enchanted units. In this way, each city would have strategic value based upon those resources it controls. This could then be expanded to allow for caravans which move resources from one place to another, thereby allowing for the types of resource chaining that has been proposed.
Yes, I had specifically discussed this and had broken ground on possibilities regarding just this. This is why I used terms like "elegant" and "sophisticated." There is a solution out there that provides complexity while still being streamlined. The goal is to find that perfect hybrid.
This would also blow the door wide open for the modders to make as simple or complex system as they with to pursue.
Continuing, and addressing this:
This could be anything handled with a resource manager AI component that you can enable/disable with the check of a box so you can micromanage everything yourself or let the system do it for you. All very similar to the options that are available to us now in the game with various systems. Thus, players that do not like this component can set it to be automated, therefore matching the AI opponent's same abilities(both use the same mechanic), so neither side would have an "advantage."
Sorry - was a bit polemical and rushing it...
I think resources should remain global for two micromanagement reasons
a) I don't want to bother with a mechanic for transferring resources from city to city (particularly literally carting them around...)
I don't want to have to constantly be checking how much of a resource each city has.
Both of these are just huge time wasters IMHO.
What I would like to see is more specialized cities from keying a set of buildings to local resources and for items to be resources (complex or refined resources). And some interesting choices-
E.g. Only cities producing iron can make (certain) weapons. To make an axe I must have an iron mine and an axe-maker in the same city. To make a dagger I must have an iron mine and a swordsmith in the same city. Any city cannot have both an axe-maker and a swordsmith (and an armorer is incompatible with both). To make a battle-axe or a short sword I need iron ingots not just iron. A blacksmith produces iron ingots (its output depending on how many specialists work there). A blacksmith can be built wherever there is an iron mine but has an upkeep of one iron. Add to this NPC's which give bonuses to axes or swords (two flavours one produces more quickly, one produces better quality - they level up after a certain amount of production). Now you have choices. If I only have one mine do I want armor or a weapon? If I get 4 iron a turn is it worth getting instead (up to) 3 iron ingots. If combat is balanced so that axe=dagger, battleaxe=short sword whilst being different tactically (fingers crossed) then you start to get strategy. How much you want to pile up weapons also becomes a good question (is it worth saving iron to trade/use for other purposes?).
The key points are to have resources being useful for more than just one thing (several preferably) and to force city specialization by limiting some buildings to having appropriate local resources whilst maintaining mutually incompatible building choices.
Now do this for ALL resources.
My postscript was more a comment about realism (if fantasy games can be said to have that!) - I'm an immortal magic wielding absolute sovereign who can command his people to build cities, construct buildings, equip armies, who leads them gallantly into battle etc. but when I ask them to make me a sword they say 'bugger off you go buy it down the local shop, all the swords you've ordered forged are going to the peasants not you, you high and mighty sonofa...' I find it a bit hard to swallow. OK if I'm at another sovereign's city, or if I don't have the tech (although mostly then I can't buy it anyways), or if it's something I can't make (do people really eat salted pork?) but normally I want something I can make in bulk but have to pay ridiculous prices for.
Excellent post Kenata, that's what I've been trying to say.
I in part referenced the EU series to counter the gamer-too-stupid argument. As you said, we can handle complexity, but that's not why we bought Elemental.
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