I've put the game down for quite an extended period now to try and approach it fresh again. The beta process was incredibly frustrating and I wanted to approach the game with a set of new eyes. On top of that I gave myself a few house rules so that the exploits were minimised. For example, I didn't allow myself to use the Imbue spell so that I couldn't create a super stack of summoned creatures.
So over the weekend I tried to get back into it...
But it simply lacks personality - and I don't think the coming 1.1 version can really address this in any meaningful way (although I hope I'm wrong).
Here is a list of the impressions I had while playing again. I hope they help the devs in some way...
The Races/Factions/Allegiances or whatever you want to call them
This has been my biggest issue with the game since early beta. Playing again I resigned myself to the fact that we will not get unique species within the races. So I set my expectations to the sort of differentiation you get while playing the vanilla Civilization series rather than the racial diversity you get while playing [inset name of any other fantasy game here].
So I'm playing along trying to keep an open mind and each faction/race/what-ever I meet interacts with me in exactly the same fashion as each other. They sort of all approach you - even if you are in the opposing allegiance - with the banal 'Will you be my friend and trade with me?' sort of opening question. Where is the personality? Where are the threats? Even the backgrounds they stand behind all look the same. They may be different - but they don't look it.
I declare war early to gobble up the cities and resources (not that my aggression has any bearing on how anyone else interacts with me) and I get attacked by units where the only differentiation between factions is that one is bald and another isn't. I find myself looking at units on the map wondering who they belong to. And even when I find out, the answer is meaningless because there are no differences between the factions anyway.
The lack of racial personality in Elemental is so bloody frustrating and boring that it is extremely difficult to get immersed in the game in any sort of RPG sense.
'Not fair!' I hear you cry. You're right - I was going to approach the game as if I was playing Civ. And I was, until the lack of personality even in the Civ sense got me back on my 'racial differentiation' horse. In Civ, most of the personality between races comes from the leaders. Each leader plays the game differently and you need to interact with each in a correspondingly different way. The game injects personality through the differences and you get drawn in. Unfortunately, Elemental simply doesn't even come close to getting this right.
Will this be addressed in some way in version 1.1? I don't think so because to change this would strike right at the core of the Elemental design. My bet is this is at the very bottom of the 'too hard' basket.
The Tech Tree
Why would I choose anything other than spamming the Combat techs? There is no impetus from the game to approach the tech tree in any different way - game after game after game. Techs are also linear. Why can I research Sharp Weapons as an example before I've researched Mining? By the way - I don't even know if Mining is a tech - I rarely research anything other than the Combat stream.
The tech tree should be a choice - not a process. The choices should be important based on your neighbours and available resources.
It would also be good if each race/faction had its own unique techs.
This should be easier to fix than the racial issues. My hope is that 1.1 will address this in some way.
The Spell Books
Like the tech tree, the approach to spells is very similar where the same things are researched in the same order game after game. How much more fun/surprising would it be as an example if you could choose to study from a book but the spell you researched was random. 'Damn, didn't get my Fire Giant.' When you research all the spells of one level within the book you chose you then start learning the next level.
Also, why are all leaders automatically given all the spell books? If you where trying hard to make all the races/factions the same boring shade of grey then the first thing you would do is give all races access to the same spells. This is such a 'no-brainer' I can't see any good reason to have changed this during beta other than letting the testers try out all the spells.
Restrict each race/faction access to limited books at the start and then tie in the others to tech or quests (or both). This should be an easy fix.
In Conclusion
Elemental should be one of the 'must have' games. A game that gets loaded first onto your computer. It has so much going for it but it has not reached anywhere close to its potential. I know Stardock is trying hard to reshape Elemental (and I do appreciate the efforts) and I trust that the mechanics will be close to being right in version 1.1. My main concern is that the flavour will still be the same.
Hate to say it but instead of a beautiful and flavoursome three course meal, it feels like someone got all the right ingredients and then put them in the blender.
I agree with everything that was siad in a attempt to offer wisdom on how to improve Elemental... We all can agree we want teh game to be more than it is today.
Wow, great points there. I agree with you, and it is something that hasn't gotten as much attention as other areas. This really needs its own thread to brainstorm...There just aren't enough things going on to really drive the gameplay. Here are a few examples from other games and media of what we need:
1) In Fall From Heaven, you have the Armageddon Counter. As it gets higher, hell terrain appears, bad things happen, etc. It is a really cool mechanic, that while not perfectly implemented, really adds lots of flavor and drives gameplay. Things going to hell? Go raise the Ashen Veil holy city to help bring things back to normal. Perfect example of something that happens in the game, driven by game events, that feels natural and thematic. Right now we don't have any external events or gameplay mechanics that drive decisions. Shame really, because the ideas are there in Elemental. If a player is going for the Spell of Making, it should lead to world changing events and require a player's response.
2) In Medieval Total War, the Mongols eventually invade from the east, just as in history, and are a real threat. In Elemental, we don't have any big events that occur that can really alter the balance of power or force player decisions.
3) In Civ, players can go for a Space Race or other victory. You can stop this by winning first or destroying them. This forces the player to react to the AI's goal. In CIV V, you can see the exact status of the AI's victory conditions, so you can see how close they are to winning with a particular condition. In Elemental, we don't have this.
Really, what this leads to is the sense of playing in a vacuum. Sure the AI might declare war on you and thus divert your attention to deal with them, and maybe a big nasty monster is killing your caravans, but past those two events, there is almost nothing going on that requires a player to react or act, leading to a very passive gameplay experience. However, this can be fixed. As we have been talking about in numerous threads, events (both random and driven by gameplay) are badly needed to bring life to the experience. I think that King Arthur and the Paradox staretgy games provide the best examples of how to do this, especially King Arthur since they use a quest mechanic.
I think you can alter your clothmap setting (so that persists to a lower level of zoom) then you should be able to do what you want.
As to the rest of the thread, I don't think personality will be as hard as you think. I agree it is not there yet. What you need is several separate AI algorithms that persue different strategies (one magic heavy, one that rushes, one that turtles, one that is open diplomatically, one that is after any short term advantage, one that will not trade anything, one that does everything possible to put as many squads of axemen in the field as fast as possible). The current priority is right (to get one AI that is reasonably good) but the rest will come.
Frogboy if you read this - it might be nice to see all (or several of) the options of your current AI builds, and if some are pushovers, and some are a real pain that would actually add to the experience. (and if we can eventually mod them that would be great)
This.
There's a reason that successful fantasy games have elves and orcs and dwarves and creatures from mythology: we can all easily identify with this stuff and that gives a game some sort of built-in depth. So when I have to fight a wyvern, I kind of "get it". On the other hand, I have no conception as to what a "shrill" is or where they come from; they are just something that helps me gain experience.
I'm having fun with Elemental, but I would be having a lot more fun if the creatures and races were more varied and identifiable.
I don't agree that in order to have fun, I must play something with horribly over-used fantasy cliches, and I rather enjoy Elementals somewhat fresh take on fantasy, and in my mind, helps it stand out from generic fantasy garbage.
But to each their own.
[quote who="Teslacrashed" reply="30" id="2800632"]
I guess you missed the "I'm having fun with Elemental" part of my post.
I just think the experience would be better with more of the common fantasy tropes. They can be layered into the "new" stuff - it doesn't have to be all or nothing. They could even have an original twist added, take them in a new direction. But throwing away most vestiges of fantasy gaming and trying to build a entirely different backstory ends up defeating one of the major goals of this game: being MOM-like. MOM relied on the tropes; want to be MOM-like? Adopt some of them.
I like the fact that they're not using all the usual tired Fantasy stuff.
It's just a shame that none of if has been fleshed out very much in the game, in terms of game-play and in-game lore. But that will come with time.
Agree but, it's not personality just too linear, the tech tree and spell book are the same thing in each and every game. Some randomness in the order of the tech tree and spells would go a long way to make sandbox games play out a little different.
Personality should come from the interaction between the players character and the NPC/champions/family members, something like the NPC's in Jagged Alliance, where NPC's have likes/dislike for other NPC's. A random set of who likes/dislikes between champions/family members along with some banter would really inject some personality into the game. More interaction between characters in the game would make it better, it's the rpg element that makes Elemental different from Civ X/ MOM, so go build on the CRPG elements to add personality.
Some really great suggestions/insights added here. Particularly like the 'Shit happens' post by Dhraconus and the various comments for and against traditional recognisable races.
I guess the escalation of monsters through the adventuring tech tree is an approach to the 'Shit happens' scenario. This has potential but just isn't hitting the mark yet. In FFH2 there were also specific monsters that spawned as the Armageddon counter climbed and depending on your stage of development they either spelt doom or were an opportunity to get some really cool equipment. I think Elemental is heading in the right direction with this aspect tied to the tech tree - but it just hasn't really been fleshed out properly yet. Too bland and simplistic in its current form.
As far as the debate about traditional races are concerned, I prefer the traditional approach simply because you have an existing context rather than requiring to understand the game lore before getting a feel for the RPG. But in reality I would be happy with either as long as there were very clear lines of differentiation in:
Your liberated spelling of spelt has some serious irony/cognitive dissonance entertainment value. It almost distracts from your more important point about how the built-in factions do little to nothing for making a given game distinctive (regardless of the whole lack of random maps problem).
I don't often rank-ordered lists and I certainly wouldn't put visuals at the top of one I was forced to make, but if I pretend 1-6 are fuzzy, co-equal priorities I can pretty much sign on to your argument.
Simply the Queens English. Spelt = spelled for you Americans.
And the numbers weren't in any particular order. Visual is much less important than some of the other points.
What a good post. I wanna be your friend.
Very good post and one I could sign without hesitation.
I'm in the same situation except I still haven't touched Elemental after beta. I expressed my concern on the lack of personality regarding sovereigns, factions and their units back then and that is still the reason why Elemental does not appeal to me at all. I just want the game to be great but still can't play it at all.
I truly hope some major expansion will introduce cool, immersive races as factions. And also completely redo the spellcasting system so that we can have Sovereigns with an actual magical identity like the wizards in MoM and AoW:SM.
I'm a Floridian who very much appreciates having some colour in my world-English prose. It's just that my only exposure to "spelt" has been on the labels of niche-market grain products. Is it kosher in the UK to use a simple T where us cross-the-pond folks would generally think to use a form like "spelled?"
Lol. I think the spelling is Old English in origin and has been around a long, long time. Most words don't work by transposing the past participle verb 'ed' for 't' but there are a number:
Spelt = spelled
Smelt = smelled
Knelt = kneeled
And so on.
Not sure of the origins for the changes between British and American spelling but I'd guess it was when the dictionaries where first written. I'm in Australia and we have a few differences than the British as well. But generally the Collins dictionary is considered the correct reference for British spelling.
(and replying to the reply-chain to my reply. Wow, what a sentence )
I have no problem with the setting itself. I just feels like a waste of a very dynamic, very multi-faceted engine. Right now, with the way terrain changes and so forth, there is no chance to, let's say, make a Lord of the Rings-mod for it. Or just imagine relatable battles/scenes/storylines. This way, it's kind of "us" playing "their" story, a feeling, by the way, that caused Morrowind to receive its due praise way too late as well.
Anyway, having worked as a storywriter for a game developer I know how easy it is to get carried away with your own universe and setting. I wouldn't say that this is beyond repair in Elemental, it just feels very inconsequential. On the one hand, they create a very dynamic and potentially flexible engine that just makes you want to adapt it to fit your own personal fantasy universe, while on the other hand promoting a very narrowly defined, high-concept setting and storyline, which does not at all fit in with the former.
That is my 1 complaint about all stardoc games.
The AI factions etc don't have personality they tend to make them all the same in the name of game balance.....I say throu out balance and give factions & ais some character
I'm just curious to see how much money Stardock throws at this game. The core players have already bought it, but word of mouth has been terrible, so future sales are a question mark. Only so much money can be spent appeasing players who already purchased this game.
I wish Stardock the best, but a month after release to still be discussing changing major game features is just weird. With the hiring of a new producer that just says " we need help ". I am sure they will get the game to a better place, but at some point the bean counters will say....your losing money. Not negative...just my opinion.
This is really not much of a concern so long as Brad is CEO. Elemental will get a lot of love and attention for months stretching into years.
The question is where will it wind up. It won't be everything to everyone, but I hope they really focus on improving the core mechanics (economy, combat, magic) and don't worry one bit about lore or art or any of that fluff. The modders will chew that stuff up anyway and spit out tons of content. Tackle the areas the modders cannot (or cannot easily).
Make a damn 2d game first, then worry about what it will look like.
Regarding using pre-existing fantasy tropes or creating new ones, it can work either way the problem (as has already been pointed out numerous times) is that the diversity is in the LORE and not in the GAME. If they would get it in the game then we wouldn't be having this thread. Right now I imagine most players are like me and are just projecting their fantasy stereotypes onto the races anyway, which makes Elemental a case of 'naming a rabbit a smerp':
Ironeers = dwarves
Mancers = high elves
Tarthans = wild elves / nomads
Amarians = high men
Men = men, hehe
Trogs = ogres / trolls
Urxen = orcs
Quendar = lizardmen / draconians
Wraith = dark elves
I may have mixed up my Mancers and Amarians but you get the point. Unless you dig for it in the novel or manual you just don't get any character from actually playing the game, and when presented a void the player will fill it with their own preconceptions. There are a few, and I mean a few opening dialogue lines when first meeting the other Sovereigns that made me think, for example, 'ah Procipinee is kind of like Ariel from MoM, self-righteous and bitchy. Got it.' But mostly not.
So long story short, yes, game needs more personality.
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