I hope I am wrong but I KNOW I am not: I don't believe at all that online or even LAN multiplayer in this game will work at all. It will be hard to keep players committed to a game like this when they start losing. TBS tend to last a long time and having the losing side waiting to make just a couple of moves while the winning side plays its long rich and satisfying turn just never works in my experience (I have played games like this for 30 years, starting with cardboard wargames). The loser surrenders and leaves VERY soon.
The only way I have ever managed to get this kind of games going was PBEM (Play By E Mail). I have played huge maps of "Age of Wonders" and "Age of Woneders Shadow Magic" for months, one turn each day. A player plays his turn then sends it to the other player who sends it to the next...
The way we made it work was as follows:
I would usually make a map then start playing. After about a couple of weeks of rounds I start another game with the same people so that we have two going at the same time, then another couple of week and I start a third one. Three is the good number usually.
That way after about 2 months of playing certain players start realizing that they are weaker then the others, but keep playing all games for several reasons:
1 They have other two games going where they hope they will be able to win.
2 The game where they are starting to lose begins to be boring for them, but since their empire is smal (they are losing) playing their turn and sending it is not that time consuming.
Before they realize that they are condemned and I am also going to win the next game the first game is over and a fourth has started. I can tell out of personal experience and years of testing (!!!) that SUCH SYSTEM WORKS. On the other end if we were playing at the same time, the losing side would have to wait an hour for me to end my turn, when they just have a couple of units left. NOBODY WOULD EVER DO THAT! And it would be embarrassing to me to enjoy myself while my friends are clearly bored.
This is a very important piece of info for the developers, please don't underestimate this I have tested this for years!
Age Of Wonders Shadow Magic still survives thanks to PBEM, their forum is crowded even after 7 years!
(I know what you are going to say PBEM had a drawback: battles against other players can only be solved in autofight. True but the player can fight all battles against teh AI, thus developing his empire that way, before the confrontation. To be honest once you start playing, you don't really mind: since the autofight system in AOW is extremely well done.) - Besides THAT IS THE ONLY WAY MULTIPLAYER WILL EVER WORK!
(PS: You can have a "battle mode" for multiplayer, like in "Heroes of Might & magic 5", where you can create a battle and just play that one on the tactical map. But the epic strategic game can only be done by email!!! (to add a personal note Age of Wonder Shadow Magic by email is the most fun I have ever had with videogames, one has truly the impression of an epic game when playing a map one hour a day every day for a year)
I don't see myself playing multiplayer for this game,because I don't have the time for long sessions of this game at a time. Having said that, a play by email scenario might be different, because you just have to do your turn and that's it, no waiting for the other guys.
However, I believe they have said that they are NOT adding play by email. Unfortunate, because it seems like a lot of people enjoy this play style.
But I do agree with your argument and your logic is sound; and I actually didn't think of playing multiple games at the same time. But it doesn't look like they will implement it. Or if they do, it's probably not coming for a LONG time.
I believe the MP is simultaneous movement w/ countdown clock. So, while Stardock is putting options for a longer time clock, you'd never convince me to play an opponent that thought he needed an hour a turn. I think of it like Rome - you've made your empire so large, you have to choose what to micromanage wisely and eventually, you will begin to see corruption and crumbling within the empire.
In Age of Wonders you can get the the one hour mark for turn length long before you have taken over the map, especially if it uses all three levels (surface, underground, and shadow world). Therefore it must be concluded that you have not played an epic game of Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic.
I read through my post again... and see nothing where one could ever conclude such a thing. I pointed out that in Elemental, you would never be sitting there for an hour because of the way Stardock designed MP: simultaneous + countdown clocks (ie: speed chess).
I have played epic games of Age of Wonders: SM.... as a SP. I've recently just re-installed the first to give it a whirl again. But sitting in a room, waiting for a person to take an hour just so he could micromanage every city he owned and click on every army he could possible touch.... wouldn't happen. Ever. It be like playing chess with someone who takes 10+ minutes to think of his next move.
Simultaneous turns + countdown clocks require the players to quickly consider their options, and more importantly, realize that part of their Empire may well not be managed as efficiently as they would like (much like a real life empire that spreads well beyond the control of its territorial armies).
This is not to say that if Stardock could implement Play by email without wasting resources that need to go to other areas, then by all means, Stardock should do it. But... if I was given a choice between fixing the AI, adding more spells, more balancing, individual tech trees, better diplomacy, better tactical battles, and play-by-email, I'd choose all the others first. 4X games are meant first as solo affairs - we like large, vast empires with our fingers in every possible decision... but when I think about sitting in a room with my friends, I'd rather break out some dice and slay monsters on a D&D quest than watch 1 guy take an hour turn.
It would come out of the multiplayer resource pool, as multiplayer and singleplayer are being done separately.
Even with simultaneous turns you will never manage to get people to sit there, on an Epic TBS game, when they start losing. It just doesn't happen: too time consuming, too much work involved. PBEM on the other hand allowed me to carry through 'almost' all games. And I am not an isolated case, go see the AOW heaven's forum!
... what? No.
This kind of stuff reminds me of the guy who said that anybody who could play a game of Civ 4 in less then 72 hours was doing it wrong.
Turn length in AoW:SM is nowhere NEAR that long.
I have played AOWSM since the day it came out in 2003, before I played its 2 predecessors AOWTWT and of course the first one, AOW1, also from the day they come out. The time one takes to play a turn largely depends on the size of the map, but I can assure you than after turn 50 on a XL map turns always take more than an hour to play (for the winning side that is...)
In one game I am currently in I own about 1/8th of the surface, about a 1/16th of the underground, and nothing in the shadow. The time it takes to do one turn averages 15 to 30 minutes, depending on how many tactical battles there are. So yes, while an hour is not going to be the turn time for most games nor every turn, it is very possible to get to that point.
In a single player game on an even larger map by the same map maker (the PBEM game is on a map of the largest normal size, this one exceeds the limits imposed by the map editor tool), by turn 100 the AI players are taking at least 5 minutes each to play their turns with observer mode off, so it is not taking the time for units to move (it just manipulates the map data).
Another plus for PBEM is you can play with people who's schedules do not match up with yours, allowing for games with people that you would otherwise never be able to play.
multiplayer CAN work in this game, if you approach it right. you have to know what people want. example: people that play with friends tend to want to play co-op against very tough AI's in long games that can be saved. people that want to play competitively want quick games where they can come at odd angles toward their opponents, just like chess. you have to open your imagination. nobody knew what the wheel was before it was invented and then every body facepalmed.
well be honest I think you are wrong me and my friends dedicate ourselves to our games that we play, they should not spend allot of time on this just take single player game and make it multi player that is all that they need to do to spend more time trying to make it different with man power and resources is point less I think.
specially when people who want it are hard core with there friends they want the original single player experience when someone is losing they can drop out and AI takes over that is simple way to fix the problem but people who play this multi player are going to be close friends like guy next door like me and my three buddies drinking beer and hanging out or playing over hamchi.
Yeah, but that sound like "casual gaming" which is perfectly fine but I doubt you'll ever finish a map doing like that. In this game around turn 100 turns start to get long, not an hour yet, that happens later... What I am trying to say is that you guys are probably going to be... ehm... drunk before the game ends, in other words you are probably not going to finish the game, the loser will quit long before that.
The single player experience is great until one learns all the tricks to exploit the AI, after that the game is old. As I already said Age of Wonders Shadow Magic instead is alive and well after 7 years because of "Play By EMail".
I have played these kind of games for 30 years, I assure you I have a pretty good experience of what works. It would be great to be able to coop againsta very tough AI, but the AI usually quite easily can be beaten alone, are they going to pull out an AI that can beat 2 human players? I certainly do hope so... And I'd love to play that (by email because I don't have the same schedule as my friends who live in different parts of the world)
Beside, we play "competitively" but do not like quick games, the people you are talking about probably just want "quick games" because they realize that epic games are not going to work... But this game is conceived as epic... a Tiny map doesn't really make much sense!
no, i only refer to quick games for people that play with strangers. you can be plenty competitive when playing against friends that you know will keep coming back to play a big game. i think especially more so on games that take a long time to play, you don't want to spend 6 months on a game only to lose!
edit: yeah i looked back at my post, i didn't make it clear enough(or at all it would seem lol) that i meant people who play with strangers want to play fast games.
TBS games of this scope will NEVER be for casual game sessions. I had many many many weeks of fun with my friends playing MOO2, AoW, and even such old games as the grandious Battle Isle series. Though one thing I never did: Play online with strangers. It just doesnt work out. You need to KNOW the player. Have his contact data to continue the match at a later point etc.
IMO Stardock shouldnt focus on random matches, lobby support and all that traditional stuff.... If people wanna play multiplayer, they ll do it with friends anyway.
Games with strangers can work, if you find the right ones. If you want to see how it works out, stop by http://aow.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=t&fn=25
Exactly, guys if you like this kind of games and have never tried to play by email, go for it: you are in for the ride of your life! units that move sthealty around woods, watchtowers that get destroyed to allow armies to advance unnoticed... Spells of all kinds used in challenging ways... You cannot have that against the AI, period!
I've played them all too, and I think you're talking nonsense. The only time I could get a turn anywhere near that long is when it had multiple (ie: 5) tactical combats in it. That just doesn't happen that often, and the average turn length is FAR shorter.
Just like the guy who thinks a real game of Civ takes 72 hours, you're exaggerating. It only takes that long if you're doing it really slowly.
TBS are usually not for people who like to play fast, those are RTS, where thinking is not much part of the game.
I just played a turn in a PBEM game that is in the mid-game stage, and it took 40 minutes. As near as I can tell it was about average length for that particular game for me, and the time is likely to increase as the game progress if I continue to expand my control. So yes, an hour is not an unreasonable time for large scale games of Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic. All turns will not be that long, but there will be enough that if one is lossing they will not want to sit through the turns of the player that is winning.
I agree with Black-Knight and Gwenio1... one turn on a very large map can easily last an hour when tactical battles are included for AgeofWonders:ShadowMagic.
I really do pray we receive HotSeat and PBEM for Elemental.
I believe they will eventually add a PBEM option, but in order for that to work things will have to be balanced in order to have fun from the beginning ine every single turn. Wich means more monsters to fignt and places to explore right from the start.
Also having neutral cities to conquer, like in Age of Wonders, would help.
Problem is you totally discount those of us who like to play a game with roommates or friends etc just to have fun. Not every game has to be a deathmatch competition. Those of us who want a MP clone of SP are mainly in this catagory.. PBEM would be no different for us than just playing it together other than the added wait of sending each other our moves after each turn... Why everyone insists that everyone who plays multiplayer does so in a competitive way is beyond me. Is someone playing a game to have fun instead of to just to win that rare?
At this point me and my roommate are limited to civ IV, freelancer , NWN2 and Sacred 2 for games we can play that aren't just deathmatch mode. I don't get why the majority of games only support the deathmatch mode gameplay style..
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