Hello,
apparently the stand alone Fall from Heaven game has been cancelled.
But on the plus side, maybe this would be a perfect opportunity for Stardock to entice Kael over to modding for Elemental... his work his admired by a lot of people, and I'm sure he'd have a lot of invaluable insight into expanding and improving elemental. Stardock just need to give him a reason to switch from modding the hugely popular CiV (he's already produced a couple of small Civ5 mods!) to working on the far less popular Elemental.
Thoughts?
And no, I'm in no way connected to him. I just really like his work in with Civ4-FfH2, and think that he'd likely help transform Elemental into the game a lot of us originally wanted.
Tweakmod was good.
I rly liked the version of Tweakmod with overpowered Sidar ... makes them interesting.
and, imho, that version of Sidar is only overpowered because of the AI ... basically the Sidar palace gave invisibility to all within culture ... but *also* attacking didn't remove hidden iirc
It is good to have a book on the shelves, but the book itself is not good.
My opinion of course, but bleh, it was not good.
Kael attempted to fix the stack of doom problem to the best of his ability. Horse mounts moved 3 squares, defensive fire was implemented for weaker archers, magic was most effective against stacks, and units are less hard counter oriented but require specific buildings.
As for Kael working on the story, EWoM and FFH are two very different games because one lego designs units and the other has only presets to choose from. There are complications between the two paths because the game must reflect lore.
You're entitled to your opinion of course. But I think the point the other poster made is legitimate. Elemental doesn't lack for backstory.
As for design... when you're designing a game on top of a mature platform, you know what you're working with. In Elemental, the challenge on the design was dealing with a platform that was changing and having to alter the design.
I guess it's true what they say, you're only as good as your last game. I suppose I should just toss out two decades worth of editor's choice awards because Elemental was disappointing. Because, you know, I personally programmed the whole game by myself and every game feature or design choice was made in a completely academic setting where the sky was the limit...
Kael's a friend of mine, we speak regularly and have for a long time. He's a very good designer and project manager. But the difficulties Elemental faced were not ones of design or a lack of backstory.
To paraphrase, you have to work with the engine and development capabilities you've got. That's what happened with the stand-alone FFH. It's not an issue of design, it's an issue of development.
People look at Galactic Civilizations II and say "Great game!" but it's equally important to remember that its design derives from the fact that it was built on a platform that had been perfected over the previous nine years (Pear).
By contrast, Elemental: War of Magic 1.0 was released on a platform (Kumquat) that was released simultaneously and we all saw how that worked out. Even in the 30 days since Elemental was released, the engine has made great strides and over time it'll become vastly more capable where the design and the engine are better matched up.
People without practical experience in software engineering act like you can just wave a magic wand and a complex software platform "just happens". There's a lot of moving parts. Scratch beneath the surface of any major game and you'll find a very large piece of software engineering underneath.
You're right Brad, I didn't enjoy the book, but I can be rather picky. I'm not expecting great books from you anyway, if you know what I mean
Back story really isn't that important to me either, but I can see how it is fun to do, and potentially helpful in design. Though I'd rather have the design first and then the back story, lest you suffer issues with design based on some issue with the lore which is just difficult to implement.
Not that I'm accusing Elemental of that, just a general observation.
Long live Fall From Heaven!
This was the point I was making earlier in this thread. A straight across comparison of Elemental and Fall From Heaven is a little unfair. Like I said, Kael built his mod on a great, tried-and-tested engine. Elemental has been created from a brand new engine. So all the great polish and working game mechanics you find in FFH come mainly from Civilization 4 and the Firaxis team.
Granted, FFH is a great mod in its own right and Kael put a lot of work into it, but let's make sure we're putting things into perspective and realize Elemental was born from a different animal altogether. (I personally am not too fond of FFH, but that's my own taste, not an indictment on the quality of work put into it).
Well the fact that Elemental is built off a new engine is hardly an excuse for it's issues. It may be a reason, but not an excuse.
It boils down to 'the engine wasn't ready' instead of 'elemental wasn't ready', both equate to the same underlying failure.
Anyway, the comparisons between FFH and Elemental are not exactly technical, but about content from what I can see. There's no reason Elemental couldn't have more/better content. The combat and magic systems in particular are so devoid of interesting content (or just include broken mechanics which make them uninteresting) that you can't simply blame it on the engine.
Shadowtongue, you are not listening very well. This is an ambitious undertaking that alot of people have been waiting for. Although Elemental has had terrible birthing pains, it is making nice strides. Many of us are patient and realize that the time that it will take to make this game truly great will pass soon enough and most of us are supportive here for our own selfish reasons. We want this game to rock!
It seems a bit harsh to rip on another person's endeavors to the extent that you do. Of course it is your right to do so.
Have fun, I guess.
What does that even mean? If the context is that I should hang up my hat as a game designer then yea, it's quite relevant.
Do you have a game you've designed? ALL engines have limitations. Try doing tactical battles with Gamebryo (what Civ IV used and Call from Heaven used).
There is no such thing as a perfect engine. You do the most with what you have.
I look forward to your game and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. In the meantime, go somewhere else.
Oh Snap!
Also Brad I really like your book, can;t wait for more (hopefully there is more!) Ever read anything by R.A Salvatore. I know I'm supposed to name drop an Indie writer, your combat descriptions remind me of his. Good Stuff!
On topic I'm sad to hear their project works out, had to be an exciting ride never the less. I do hope he works on a Fall from Heaven Mod for Elemental!
Crikey.
So much negativity on all sides.
Earth map with all the Civilizations >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fall From Heaven (any version)
Cannot wait for an entrepeneur of the map making to create a (good) Earth map for Elemental (and then some minor Kingdom modding to add the Civilizations from Civilization by someone) so I can play "Magical Civilizations" in it. That mod would rule my mod Elemental area.
What he said was spot on, and this response was completely uncalled for. Guess nothing's changed.
[quote who="Frogboy" reply="85" id="2790630"]...snip...Do you have a game you've designed? ALL engines have limitations. Try doing tactical battles with Gamebryo (what Civ IV used and Call from Heaven used). There is no such thing as a perfect engine. You do the most with what you have.I look forward to your game and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. In the meantime, go somewhere else.[/quote]
really, go make your own game, until then your oppinion doesn't matter. i wasn't going to get involved until that. that line just pisses me off. while i am sick of the animosity on this forum, and loathe contributing to it, when you simply dismiss people like that because you can't defend yourself any other way. that irritates me.
[quote who="Frogboy" reply="79" id="2790377"]...snip...People look at Galactic Civilizations II and say "Great game!" but it's equally important to remember that its design derives from the fact that it was built on a platform that had been perfected over the previous nine years (Pear).By contrast, Elemental: War of Magic 1.0 was released on a platform (Kumquat) that was released simultaneously and we all saw how that worked out. Even in the 30 days since Elemental was released, the engine has made great strides and over time it'll become vastly more capable where the design and the engine are better matched up.People without practical experience in software engineering act like you can just wave a magic wand and a complex software platform "just happens". There's a lot of moving parts. Scratch beneath the surface of any major game and you'll find a very large piece of software engineering underneath.[/quote]
i don't know about waving a magic wand, but yeah, when people throw down 50 bucks for a game, they tend to expect to get the game that was advertised, as well as something relatively bug free. you can't blame the game on the short comings of the engine when you wrote the engine. yes there will be trade offs, but you decided what tradeoffs to make with the knowledge of the game you were trying to create. further you chose not to adequately test the engine. to blame the engine now is ludicrous, and insults the intellegence of everyone here. further to say that you didn't have 9 years to fine to it, is just insane.
and before i get the standard company line about how the game works as intended.
unless you intended the ai to be unable to calculate 2 moves ahead in tactical battle, so it could actually reach a target and attack
unless you intended the ai to be unable to pathfind a descent, much less optimal, route to its destination
unless you intended for half the civilization traits to not work, and a good number of the champion ones to have no effect
unless you intended quest locations to linger after completion, become deactivated before starting, etc. or several quests to fail for no reason
unless you intended rampant memory leaks.
i can go on for awhile, literally, i have a rather large list somewhere, not to mention the patch notes kinda speak for themselves, to say nothing of the truely basic feed back and tools that a game of this nature needs, that are missing or just now being added, but i will spare everyone as i think i've made my point.
i don't want you to hang up your hat, however i would greatly appreciate if you stop peeing on me and telling me its raining, and it doesn't take a computer science major to know their being peed on.
Good grief. As a programmer, I can see that ti would be fairly easy for something as complex as the game appearing to work as intended before release and turn out to be far from ready. Just stop complaining and saying how things should have been and either go away or post constructive ideas for how to improve the game.
@Dadoo2: For someone who can't even construct a properly quoted response you sure complain a lot about the faults in others. Do you think Frogboy personally codes pathfinding in the game? If not, what does your comment have to do with game design?
I'm sorry you think your purchase entitles you or others to endlessly complain or criticize our work on our own forums. I can assure you it doesn't.
We are doing our best to address the needs and requests of our customers. I will also continue to suggest that those who think we somehow intentionally or maliciously released something that was incomplete not purchase our future titles (or as the user above said "peed" on them). The free market will decide whether there's continued demand/desire for our games.
Dadoo talks about spending $50 on a game that didn't perform to his satisfaction. Well, I spent millions on said title and I'm not terribly happy either. Unlike say 2KGames, we're privately held.. So I have to decide every day what projects get funding and what don't. So I can assure you that no one is unhappier with how Elemental launched than I am. That's one of the reasons why I get so aggravated when someone suggests we knowingly released it with problems.
It is always very tempting to vent about mistakes made in the past. But what is done is done. Now, the challenge and opportunity is what we do in the future. I'm putting my money where my mouth is -- on Elemental and its subsequent updates. I am hoping that the community believes in it the way I do.
I think Dadoo made a lot of good points. And I feel like he has every reason to feel that way. I really like this game, Stardock and Brad. But, that doesn't mean that I can overlook that this game was released with a ton of flaws and a ton of mistakes that should have been caught before release.
I agree they should have been caught. What would you have me do at this point? Would you like me to terminate the entire development and QA teams for it? Would that satisfy you?
I'm here to help. But some of you seem to want to just endlessly vent on what happened. To what end?
I've tried to be as transparent as I can in communicating the process that led to the disappointing launch of the game. I've also outlined what we're doing to address that going forward and our plans to make sure that the game continues to get better.
For some of you, Elemental is a $50 game that was disappointing. For me, it represents an investment of millions of dollars and 3 years of my life that has resulted in a seemingly endless deluge of anger and hatred often directed at me personally.
I've acknowledged the mistakes I've made during the course of the game's development. But that doesn't mean I'm a bad game designer or project manager. I founded this company on my own in college over 15 years ago and turned it into a $20 million company by making mostly sound business decisions and producing successful software products. My career has had its successes and its failures. I try my best to learn from mistakes and move forward.
That's where we are now. We've had a solid month of nearly uninterrupted criticism and often fairly harsh and occasionally vile commentaries directed as us. It's time to take a deep breath and move forward and remember that the people on both sides of the screen are human beings.
We're here for you guys and we love doing what we do. Let's roll up our sleeves and make some cool stuff together.
I agree Brad, and I'm not trying to be rude or kick a dead horse. Like I said, I really like this game, Stardock, and you. It's just that some times it makes me wince when when I read some of your post or see things in game, and I think "How?" But I'm ready to move on, and think that this game could still be great, I have a whole thread of new ideas to improve and bugs that can be fixed. I have played this game for over a hundred hours easily at this point. I work in mental health and make only a little money, so I had to decide between this, Civ 5, new Fallout, and new Fable. $50 is a big decision to me. I chose this game because of how I feel about Stardock and the trust I have in your company. I think others did the same. And maybe we, as gamers, take it too personally when a game comes out poorly. That being said, even now, I wouldn't trade Elemental for one of those other games. I see it's potential, but that doesn't mean I also don't feel a little jaded, and have lost some of that trust I had in you and Stardock.
I understand where Brad is coming from. I worked at an engineering firm for period during my life where we had to work with..
That's why I'm kinda chilling back here because I can understand the stress - I really can. The budget can influence the design, the due date (possibly in relation to the budget) can influence the design, and the limitation of the software can influence the design. I've also worked the 100 hours per week, trying to cram everything into a short period of time to meet the due date - you get so stressed that a thick fog rolls in and you can't think straight. Basically how I dealt with the stress is just telling myself that I'll do what I can do to the best of my ability, if people don't like it tough. Granted, I didn't tell clients that, I just told myself that.
I think Elemental is a good game, but it has a bunch of rough edges. This is pretty common for games built on a new engine. Give it a bit of time, let it work itself out (aka developers working on it to polish it) and it will be a gem. I can see people a decade from now saying "Hey, I hope you make this game like EWOM - man that game was good!". Like others have stated in the past, MoM is a memorable and enjoyable game. Yet, it had a very rough launch as well - yet with a bit of time it was a gem itself. I think EWOM will follow in those footsteps, at least concerning turning it into something very enjoyable as well as memorable in the long run.
This.
[quote who="Xan" reply="92" id="2791248"]@Dadoo2: For someone who can't even construct a properly quoted response you sure complain a lot about the faults in others. Do you think Frogboy personally codes pathfinding in the game? If not, what does your comment have to do with game design? [/quote]
you do realize you press the little the quote button and it does the rest. this is what it produces. obviously this website has a problem with my browser or my browser settings, i must therefore be a moron, eh?
you also realize i have only posted about 20(guess this makes 21) messages, and that was my first post in this thread. wow, i just never shut up do i? and i bet all 21 are complaints too.
As for the rest, Frogboy crossed a line in my book, i called him on it. He's not pressing the matter, i won't.
Software developer here. I totally don't understand it, perhaps because of my imperfect english. Did brad say that in development they didn't use approach:
1. Let's develop an engine that can support at least half of the cool features and sophisticated mechanics I have here in this thick golden folder
And instead the development was like:
2. Oh cool, the engine is shiny and 3D. Now let's what logic we can stick into it.
Never mind, let's move on.
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