INTRODUCTION:
I'm truly glad I bought Elemental and look forward to playing it for months (years) to come. In fact, I love it so much, that I put darn near 6 hours into this post for the community and The Almighty Frogboy to consider.
Despite my love of this game, the tactical combat results aren't just random at the moment, they are erratic to the point of frustration. They are so unpredictable in many instances that entire battles can be lost by two bad die rolls back to back.
Imagine if you could lose all your armies on a single territory in Risk with just a single poor roll. Doesn't that make you want to cry inside?
WHY I CRY INSIDE (FOR REALZ):
I have two archers. The first has an attack of 18 and the second has an attack of 24. My target has a defense of 18 and 11HP. How many shots will it take to kill my target? The answer: after being shot at roughly 8 times or so I have reduced his 11HP to 7HP and he has now reached my archers. I get 4 more shots off before he finishes both groups off.
Apparently my archers are the worst shot in all the land. In fact, I would be surprised you could find a worse archer in any land. They would have had better luck if they grabbed an arrow in one hand, ran up, and tried to stab that bastard with it like a dagger.
I understand there is a reason for all this, mathematically speaking. It's likely his 18 armor was anti-arrow armor (not sure how I'm supposed to know this, but that's not the point). The point is that my attack was equal to or greater than his defense, but it might as well have been 0 for all the good it did me.
Rock-paper-scissors is not a fun game when, after I throw Rock and you throw Paper, we have to stare at each other for another 5 minutes before either one of us can leave.
Thusly: internal crying.
Of course, this isn't just a problem with resistances, I find it's a fairly regular occurence that when epic forces collide I will frequently see attack deal 10 damage. I have a 150 attack and I do 10 damage? On a regular basis? Against enemies with lower defenses?
It all just feels wrong. But "feel" is a big part of games, if not everything. If something feels wrong in a game, it is wrong.
IDENTIFYING THE OBJECTIVE(S):
Before making any design changes, one must always evaluate the desired effect of said change. If you don't know what you are trying to do, you will invariably do it wrong.
SOLUTION TIME:
Part I of the Solution: Chance to Hit
Part II of the Solution: Damage on Successful Hit
Part III: That's it.
I admit it isn't quite as elegant or as simple as what was previously present, but I think this would get the results players will want to see. I think players will feel justified when they win or lose through these damage outcomes.
There will still be randomness, but you won't have mass chaos.
A FEW EXAMPLES:
Let's start with an even fight.
Now let's say the attacker has a morale advantage.
Let's say the defender in the above scenario (who happens to be the same unit as the attacker) counter-attacks, they would have a morale disadvantage which would have the following results.
Now let's say we are even on morale again, but the attacker has a big attack advantage.
But what about against a resistant defender?
Let's look at a resistant defender with equal defense.
THE MOST IMPORTANT EXAMPLE:
Let us now say, for sake of argument, that there is some knucklehead with 18 DEF that I am shooting with 2 sets of archers. My first set of archers has an ATK of 18 and my second has an ATK of 24. Finally, this great big jerk is resistant to arrows. Let's see what happens under the new system!
And my slightly weaker archer.
This means that with 4 shots a piece, my both my archers will hit roughly twice. This will deal an average of roughly 13.75 damage. But, if I miss even one more shot than average, suddenly I will be in trouble. If I miss two more shots than average, I will be in real danger.
It's a much less likely that he will make it to me and much less likely that I could lose this fight, but not unfairly so, it could still happen. My archers, with greater firepower and range, can put up a fight. That's what counts. It just feels right that archers shooting at a single target charging them from a field away would more likely cut him down than get cut down.
I no longer have internal tears.
OH, GREAT FROGBOY (whom I greatly respect and admire):
I understand that such a change can not be taken lightly nor rushed out the door... but by golly it would take less than an hour to implement and start testing internally. Unless I'm crazy, which is possible.
If you have questions or want to explore this scenario further, I am happy to do so publicly (via this thread) or through e-mail, PMs, or whatever means you like.
OH, EVERYONE ELSE (whom I acknowledge begrudgingly):
No, I'm kidding. I love you, too, everyone else. Feel free to provide comments, questions, or other feedback through this thread or through PMs. In fact, please do. If you actually took the time to read all this, you have earned your right to say something back!
BONUS QUESTION:
Can anyone guess what I do for a living? (note: this question has now been answered in the replies below).
I have tweaked the formulas slightly on the "chance to hit" side of things, to increase the likelihood to hit. It occurred to me that I often see higher defenses than attacks late game, and that's when we want whiffing the least (massive armies NEVER whiff against massive armies).
This is very interesting stuff.
Coming from you, that really means a lot. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to read what I wrote.
If you can think of any inherent flaws with the system or if these changes jeopardize your vision for the game in any way, I would be more than happy to revisit, modify, or rethink this approach. Feel free to PM or simply reply to this thread with any future thoughts on the matter.
Cheers!
I like your ideas but I have a comment about damage dealt, isn't it a bit too low ? A 40 ATK vs 10 DEF should make more than 5-10 imo.
Bonus question: I bet you are a teacher
Seems decent.
5-10 is a little on the low side, but I decided it was a fair trade off if the target of the attack was resistant to that attack type (especially since they have a whopping 80% chance to hit). Keep in mind against a normal defender (non-resistant), the attack would be 10-20. Of course, if you have a morale advantage, it can get much higher than that as well.
If you still feel it's a bit low, let me know. If enough people feel that way, I will change it.
Bonus Question: That's a great guess. My mother is a teacher. As a result, I tend to be very careful how I explain things (which may be why you guessed that). If two more people guess differently and incorrectly, I'll reveal the correct answer. Though in a way, it might be the very last thing you would guess...
Nah, I like the damage low as it is ...
Of course, in a system where HP wouldn't be shared among the entire unit (well, yes and no), high damage wouldn't be necessary.
Also, if weapon damage were a constant, and not tied to attack at all ... then low damage (not exceeding HP index, or in this case 11) might still be favorable.
hmm, since we are guessing your career, I will guess Musician (of some sort) ... if I have to guess specifically, I would say Orchestral musician, although I still count my guess to encompass any sort of Musician activity
Oooh, a bonus question! I wanna try.
I will hazard a guess that you're a programmer.
I make the guess based on me being a programmer and also spending too much time on combat formulas in games
As to your solution, I think it may be mathematically sound, but doesn't communicate very well to the gamer. And I'd like to have slow, lumbering units that are easy to hit, but have a large damage reduction. That and the other way around. That would really need distinct stats.
Well ... you could have "basic" damage be equal to your equation ... but then retain the ability to "Over-ride" damage done, for its own thing separate from attack.
(so you could keep the high attack, and lower the damage .... or you could keep the high attack and increase the damage ... and you could even make it consistent for weapon, and not have anything to do with the opponent's armor)
but yea, keep the equation, but allow for a damage over-ride once we start getting into Weapon/ Monster variety.
@Tasunke
I appreciate the additional feedback. I am not entirely opposed to the idea separating damage and chance to hit further (as you suggest, having damage tied to a weapon and chance to hit being tied to attack value is one possible way of handling that). That said, one of my objectives with this system was to ensure that only these core formula would need to change and not any of the numerical values or other parameters.
Ultimately, I'm kind of inclined to think "baby steps" with this. Implement this first, then, if it feels like more is necessary, further separation may be warranted.
As for the bonus question... it's another good guess, I do play multiple musical instruments (Guitar, Bass, and Keyboard), however, that is not what I do for a living. Kudos on the good guess though.
@Vallu751
As for the bonus question, your guess is fantastically close, but still not quite right. Since that is the third incorrect guess, I will reveal the answer in a moment.
As for your other comments, I appreciate that you think it's mathematically sound and I wrestled with your very concern for quite a while. How do I keep it understandable to average Joe Gamer? Ultimately, I decided this whole post could be summed up to players by explaining what each attribute does, even if we don't get into the math behind it. Thusly:
1.) Higher ATK increases chance to hit and damage.
2.) Higher morale increases chance to hit and damage.
3.) High DEF decreases your chance to be hit.
4.) Resistances reduce your chance to be hit and the damage you take.
So, I guess I straight up admit that you're right. If someone were to look at the formula for Chance to Hit, the odds are they would be confused. It's nowhere near as straight forward to the player. However, I think the results will do the communication for the system, because they are more consistent. Most formulas in games aren't particularly transparent (StarCraft, Supreme Commander, Counter-Strike, God of War, etc.) but dedicated players can always figure things out and the rest of the players tend to go by feel, which I think this system will attain.
I also agree that the idea of big, tough units (giants, ogres, what have you) being slow but tough is a good one, but I do think that can currently be attained either by giving them high health values, high resistances (potentially to multiple damage types), or both. Thoughts?
@Everyone!
Well, the three guesses were: Teacher, Musician, and Programmer. Oddly, you were all close in very different ways. The correct answer is: Game Designer (not for Stardock, obviously)! I've had to deliberately not visit these forums or work on this solution during my work day (even on lunch breaks), because I'm certain that would breach my contract in some way. Hehehe.
Yea, I've encountered what I can only describe as "miss-spam" from creatures with a higher defense. I would like to see something where Dexterity and shields determines your miss chance on the defensive, and your chance to hit with bows on the offensive, and heavier armor provides better damage reduction, but makes you more likely to be hit. The fact that we have misses is good, but the misses happen way too often to be fun.
My only problem with the proposed system is that i don't see how it ensures that heroes and one man squads will remain tactically valid in the late game.
In the current system to keep late game heroes and one man troops valid they will have to be given unrealistic/bizarre attack and def values as well as health. And once you've given a hero unreasonable Def values you're back at the miss-fest.
also with only attack and def you don't get very much leeway to make very different weapons / armour. I still think that attack and damage need to be separated, perhaps that's just me.
Robbie price
@ Robbie
I agree that 1-man squads and heroes get incredibly weak late game and that is another issue I currently have with the game. Specifically, the weak heroes (I don't mind 1-man squads getting outdated). That said, to me these are somewhat separate issues, not necessarily tied to the core combat model itself, so much as the way the attack and defense values are increased over time.
In addition, I think the game still works without those issues being resolved (though I still agree that they are issues), but I find it very difficult to play currently with the combat the way it is.
You've got my gears spinning, though, so I will strongly consider doing a future post on troop advancement. I've actually already suggested a couple of other fixes, including one to the weak late-game heroes (specifically: resolving their unforgivably low HP). You can check it out here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/396501.
Thanks for reading through the lengthy post above and I appreciate your feedback.
with this i would enjoy taking a hero with morale boost to his skills.
@ Redwind85
Heheh. That exact thought crossed my mind as well. Right now it just doesn't seem to matter enough.
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