Money has been tight lately, as most of you can probably understand in our current economic climate. Having always been a TBS fan, I had to make a decision as to which game I would buy this fall. I've been anticipating Civilization 5 and Elemental for quite some time, but I had to go with the latter, and I still don't regret it.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting pretty tired of the Civilization series. It's starting to remind me of Madden: Release the same game, add a few features, and call it the best thing since sliced bread. I've played every one of them, and every spin off since Civ 1 and the whole tour through history bit is getting a bit long in the tooth for me.
So I'm left with Elemental, which kind of feels like the old pick-up truck your dad gave you. It doesn't exactly run all that great, needs a new set of...well, everything, and doesn't impress your friends all that much. So would I rather take the old pick-up truck that can potentially take me to places I've never been before, or do I stick with Civilization, my shiny ten-speed that's always been safe and reliable my whole life?
I've read all the reviews, seen all the crap hit the fan, and even felt a bit of disappointment in the past few weeks. However, there's something about this game that just gets me excited, something unique, and something I don't feel very often with games. Even with all of the bugs and problems this game has, it has something special that I can't quite explain. With Stardock's commitment to improve things, I am giddy with anticipation as to where we will be led in the next few months and years. It's expecting the unexpected with Elemental that is holding my interest. It's hoping that perhaps one day Elemental will defy it's launch in a way that we have never seen before.
I'm sure that Civilization 5 will get reviewed really well, I'm sure it will be everything that everyone has hoped it would be. I'm sure it will be polished, stable, and relatively bug-free. I'm sure, at the core of it all, it will still feel like the Civilization we've grown to love. Unfortunately, this is where I become bored. I'll take the old pickup-truck, but I'm not sure why.
Perhaps Trinity had the answer: Because you have been down there Neo, you know that road, you know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be.
I'd had enough of vanilla Civ by the third incarnation; nothing against it but had just had enough of it. I bought the 'complete' edition of Civ 4 just for the mods, and will probably do the same with 5 a couple of years down the line.
There's no tactical combat in the Civ games. The ATT/DEF -> DMG system is way too simplistic. [...having unit<->unit counters is not enough in my book.] I don't want to mention more stuff like dmg/resistance types etc., because I prefer to play with fantasy themed games anyway.
Yeah, it's ridiculously terrible how spells work in FF 14. You can't even just tap the hotkey twice to get past it, you have to use another button like Enter (or click the target with the mouse again).
It's a PS3 game with a very bad PC port, and nothing more. The UI is terrible in every way.
Well, I preordered Civ5, and I'll probably give it a whirl, in spite of the Steam requirement (which I have a hard time supporting and I'm still pondering to cancel the order). I've played all previous Civs when they came out, so it's almost like a tradition to play the newest version as well, though I generally prefer fantasy settings over historical ones. But we don't really get many TBS games anymore, so I can't be too picky. (I'm actually more looking forward to King's Bounty: Crossworlds than to Civ5, which is also released this month).
As for Istari's post, even if s/he had "disclosed" that someone who flames Elemental and promotes another game on the forum of Elemental's developer doesn't actually own the game (which in my view Istari didn't even do), I think that would be a perfectly valid action. Trolling shouldn't be without "risk", and the loss of credibility is quite an acceptable consequence for trying to start a flamewar or spread negativity.
(Edit: I have no idea why the above paragraph is displayed as link.)
I see your point, limited resources, can only buy one game. Thankfully I dont have to make that choice, I can get both, and will. Your situation though, I dont know how you can be truly convinced you made the right call without having played both games.
If I would have had to guess which one I would like the most, having never played either game, I would have gone with Elemental all the way. Stardock? Spiritual successor to MoM? I would have paid $100 for that.
Now though? I feel the opposite. Its possible that after having played Civ 5 I will think Elemental is better. I highly doubt it though.
Funny, that's precisely how this game works. They've just added a mini-map and bad animations....
Agree 100%
Huh? We have tactical battles in EWoM [it still needs a lot of work/polishing], and dmg/resistance types as well. The ATT/DEF system in EWoM must be polished. [Rolls/Magic vs. DEF/etc.]
The problem with Panzer General-style combat in Civ5 is, that doesn't get very fun until you have fliers. In Civ, the game is usually already decided by the time you build your first plane.
I'm playing Elven Legacy (and Fantasy Wars earlier), which has a similar combat system, and for me it's fun even when I don't have filers.
Whatever floats your boat.
Civ 5 is going to utterly and comletely own (upon release, not 6 months after release). The game looks amazing. Previews, videos, and user experiences have people gushing and this is with rough early preview builds. Waiting these last 15 days til release is torture.
So far, Elemental is a let down. I preordered, never really felt any hook to it during beta, played thru it several times in various patch states and ultimately the game isn't that great (on top of tons of issues). It lacks the oomph of GalCiv2, which is a game I can still play and enjoy as much as civ. GalCiv2 blows Elemental away completely. Someday, hopefully Elemental will match GalCiv2's level of awesome.
I can't prefer Elementa over Civ5. Is like prefering Lord of the Rings over Star Trek. Other than being empire buildiers, they are not the same thing. They can't be compared.
If Civ5 is as broken as elemental when it comes out, I'll definitely give it a pass. That would be a huge shame as I am big Civ fan.
Civ5 will have a DEMO upon release. WOW, what a concept, check it out - then make your choice.
"Why I chose Elemental over Civ 5"
I initially choose Elemental over Civ5 because I choose Impulse over steam (thats a whole other topic discussed in length elsewhere, so I won't get into here). 2k's handling of Civ reinforces my decision to abandon my most favored game. Stardock as a publisher is everything that 2k is not. From this gamers pov... 2k offers nothing while taking much. Stardock dialogues with its costumers. They give us timely status reports. In my mind, the relationship between publisher and customer is one of respect. Not so with 2k. 2k treats us as commodity. I've had my fill of that. Civ is a 2k title. The king is dead (civ). Long live the King (Elemental).
Reasonable argument.
What exactly has 2k/Firaxis done that you don't agree with?
S
Sorry, but what? I will every time go for the game that's polished and fun to play over a crappy one produced by my 'buddy'. I don't really care if I'm treated like a commodity. That's actually not necessarily a bad thing. Isn't that how the market is supposed to work?
If you prefer a bad game and relationship, that's your choice. I prefer a good game and a cold, distant business transaction. Just my 2 cents.
"Why I chose Elemental over Civ 5"I initially choose Elemental over Civ5 because I choose Impulse over steam (thats a whole other topic discussed in length elsewhere, so I won't get into here). 2k's handling of Civ reinforces my decision to abandon my most favored game. Stardock as a publisher is everything that 2k is not. From this gamers pov... 2k offers nothing while taking much. Stardock dialogues with its costumers. They give us timely status reports. In my mind, the relationship between publisher and customer is one of respect. Not so with 2k. 2k treats us as commodity. I've had my fill of that. Civ is a 2k title. The king is dead (civ). Long live the King (Elemental).
Reasonable argument.What exactly has 2k/Firaxis done that you don't agree with?
Top of the list is 2k's silence over patches. They left us hanging. Players didn't know when, let alone IF, any patches were forthcoming. On some occasions a patch broke the game further. Would have been nice to know what the devs were doing support wise. And from a modding standpoint... patches often break mods. I read numerous posts where people were questioning if they should delay work on their mod since the latest patch was clearly in need of its own patch. And I have been in discussions where we pondered delaying pitboss games because we felt surely their must soon be a patch to patch the patch. All the while knowing how blasted long their patch cycle is.
Another problem I have with 2k is their marketing speech. They continually use hollow talk to sell their wares. So be it. But I favor hype with more substance than what 2k offers. And I have grown to take minor offense when a marketer tries to convince me to buy their wares vs simply offering buyer relevant info. At first I shrugged off 2k's marketing cheese. Saw them as just another cheesball outfit. Like a used car salseman who would put sawdust in a transmission so they can make a sale. It's all about the sales. The product, and the people who buy the product, are of no import beyond the sale. But after BTS was released and 2k marketed that expansion as having finally fixed the MAF... well that was a big turning point to me. It took awhile to get that point. A number of like events lead up to it. Now I see they continue their marketing cheese with Civ5. Despite it all, and for the love of the game, I followed their crap at CivFanatics for months up till the point where they finally released their long delayed steam FAQ. That ended it for me.
There's more I could say about my feelings toward 2k, but the above should suffice for here.
I agree that Civ games get predictable, and after a while, not so much fun. For me the most fun of 4X is in the early exploring, expanding and exploiting. Beyond that, there is to much micro-management with all the cities and units, especially when flight comes into the game. So mostly, I quit Civ games before the modern era started, just to start a fresh one.
One of the major attractions of Elemental for me was when Brad Wardell told an interviewer the management of too many cities in games like Civ was tiresome to him as well. Elemental would work around this by having global pools of food and mining resources (outside of city tiles) instead of local ones. As a result, you wouldn't need that many cities. In practice, it doesn't quite work that way. I still find myself rushing to build cities to secure those precious resources on the map as early as possible and sensible, and ending up with too many cities again.
I am curious about the changes in Civ5 regarding the battle system but the core of the game will probably be the same as it always was. It's the downside of a game based on actual history as opposed to a fantasy setting. I'm not a big fan of fantasy and all their cliches of elfs, orcs, demons and the like (although Stardock has done well IMO by avoiding most of these cliches), but I will centainly keep my eyes open for new updates of Elemental because there's much more to be expected here.
To each their own. Civ4, was for me, a crappy experiance. The MAF prevented me from playing the huge maps that I craved. And it prevented me from playing standard size maps with the mods I liked playing. Customer goodwill would have lessened the effect. But over time, 2k's methods had completely dissolved all my goodwill towards them. The patch process was a prolonged and frustrating experience. The patch cycle was obscenely slow. Then the patches broke the game further. We didn't know if new patches were in the works. We had no idea what the devs were doing to support the game. 2k didn't bother to keep us informed. At one point Firaxis breaks the silence and informs us of a soon to be released patch (matter of days they said); but that backfired when 2k held the release back for a few weeks and didn't bother to tell us anything.
For the most part, 2k ignored its customers post sale. Pre-sale they said whatever they thought would promote the sale. Reality was no object. They speak of community and being one of the team, then they make the sale and turn a cold shoulder as they move on to new prey. I've grown tired of this kind of behavior. 2k is just one of a growing list of outfits whom I will no longer support. And that ISone way as to how the market is supposed to work. I'm buyng Elemental instead of Civ5 because Stardock's business philosophy is to my liking, and I feel that in the end, I will receive a superior product.
I've never quite understood why games polarize so much. Why can't both titles be great? Games aren't monogamous relationships, you can guiltlessly enjoy more than one at a time!
Agreed. However similar they are, they're both good and enjoyable. *shrugs* But the bigger things get, the less people see of it. Which makes people bring out the tinfoil hats and cults of personality.
"You have chosen poorly" - John McClaine (Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom)
I have the game and its pretty perfect. Also the Superbowl will be the Jets vs Vikings (Jets will win)
Yeah I don't know why there is a vs. mentality in general. I loved MoM, and I really enjoyed AoW, MOO and if everything told me I had to pick a side, I'd tell them to take a hike. AoW was great multiplayer too. On the Civ 5 vs Elemental front, well they are different games, and usually I would say you don't have to pick unless its a time or money issue, and even then if you pick one you might wind up with the other later on... But I would be very surprised if Civ released to the tune of 4 or 5's in terms of reviews and general response from teh gaming community. Sure the Civ series has bugs like other games, but I've never seen them so terrible as you couldn't actually play it version 1.0, and certainly not the UI complaints. Civ 5 should have a cleaner release and no need to tell all their customers to stick around for a year for it to get better. Plus, I found the Civ series to have a very nice and receptive fanbase. I thought that was here too but, oh wells, I've seen worse for other games too.
I am going with Civ 5, probably, I am going to wait like I did with Elemental to see how much is screwed up before I give anyone my money too. In a year from now, maybe Elemental. We'll see. There are a number of games coming up after all, always some on the horizon.
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