Money has been tight lately, as most of you can probably understand in our current economic climate. Having always been a TBS fan, I had to make a decision as to which game I would buy this fall. I've been anticipating Civilization 5 and Elemental for quite some time, but I had to go with the latter, and I still don't regret it.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm getting pretty tired of the Civilization series. It's starting to remind me of Madden: Release the same game, add a few features, and call it the best thing since sliced bread. I've played every one of them, and every spin off since Civ 1 and the whole tour through history bit is getting a bit long in the tooth for me.
So I'm left with Elemental, which kind of feels like the old pick-up truck your dad gave you. It doesn't exactly run all that great, needs a new set of...well, everything, and doesn't impress your friends all that much. So would I rather take the old pick-up truck that can potentially take me to places I've never been before, or do I stick with Civilization, my shiny ten-speed that's always been safe and reliable my whole life?
I've read all the reviews, seen all the crap hit the fan, and even felt a bit of disappointment in the past few weeks. However, there's something about this game that just gets me excited, something unique, and something I don't feel very often with games. Even with all of the bugs and problems this game has, it has something special that I can't quite explain. With Stardock's commitment to improve things, I am giddy with anticipation as to where we will be led in the next few months and years. It's expecting the unexpected with Elemental that is holding my interest. It's hoping that perhaps one day Elemental will defy it's launch in a way that we have never seen before.
I'm sure that Civilization 5 will get reviewed really well, I'm sure it will be everything that everyone has hoped it would be. I'm sure it will be polished, stable, and relatively bug-free. I'm sure, at the core of it all, it will still feel like the Civilization we've grown to love. Unfortunately, this is where I become bored. I'll take the old pickup-truck, but I'm not sure why.
Perhaps Trinity had the answer: Because you have been down there Neo, you know that road, you know exactly where it ends. And I know that's not where you want to be.
I don't mean to come off as sounding overly negative on Civ V, I never had the intention of bashing it, it was just weird how everyone was saying it was this super well designed game when I totally don't get that impression. There are certainly a lot of things that the game did well, I mean look at what they did with the Civilopedia, that whole google ease of usage is amazing (something I'd love to see in Elemental BTW). But let's face it, there are also serious issues, and saying that somehow Elemental's current issue is way worse than Civ V is strange to me. Forget about apple and orange problems and take for example, unit balance. Everyone raves about how Elemental bows are so super when no one mentions how insanely OP artillery is in Civ V. This is the exact same problem, and yet one is clearly a feature of "range combat" and the other is "broken"... is this the "world of difference" that everyone is talking about? When something Civ 5 does badly, it's an "intended design" that people don't like, yet something similar in Elemental is "clearly broken".
Personally I think the greatest difference isn't any thing concrete, but rather it's expectations. For Civ 5, all they had to do was take Civ 4, toss in some new twist and don't stray too far from the original game. For Elemental, people have this crazy idea that it should be the greatest game ever, and when that doesn't happen, it's somehow "broken" and terrible. If people would just accept that Elemental isn't the greatest thing since slice bread, they might actually find it to be enjoyable. It's like that saying, "The sooner you stop comparing your girlfriend to supermodels, the sooner you realize you're pretty damn lucky."
I don't think comparing elemental to decade or older games is anything like comparing some guys girlfriend to a supermodel. For crying out loud, how many professional reviewers couldnt' even get the game stable on their multiple, yes, multiple machines to review the game until patch 5 or 6? That is unacceptable. My understanding is MP, an ADVERTISED FEATURE, is still NOT IN THE GAME, as in out of beta and with solid AI a month after release. These are problems with Elemental that have nothing to do with Civ, but for some reason parts of the Elemental community want to lift their game up by bashing Civ V in the most unrealistic fashion imaginable, trying to say Civ V was released in as bad a state when clearly its not. There is plenty to constructively criticize Civ V on, but that is not one of them.
I hope both games get things ironed out, sooner than later to help keekp the genre going, but these are not glamour issues we're talking about here, it's basic stuff that games years older managed to do better on many levels.
It's funny how you mentioned multiplayer as being Elemental's serious problems... isn't that what everyone is complaining about Civ V? I think they are both "in the works"...
Although to be completely honest, when I heard multiplayer from SD I laughed a bit on the inside (sorry SD, but you guys don't have the most spectacular record in this area), so I never expected much for it.
That's not what I said at all actually. The serious problem is an advertised feature isn't in the game which is 100% unacceptable. In this case, it's MP. You're focusing on the MP part, I'm focusing on the not as advertised portion of the problem. Civ V does appear to have an MP problem, but you were incorrectly claiming earlier that Civ V is getting a gold stamp from people without complaints which could't possibly be true if "everyone is complaining" right?
But hey, i don't think you are actually trying to discuss anything at this point. You're still trying to pit one side against the other as if there are even sides to be taken. Civ V's misstep with MP and other perforance issues and Elemental's generally disasterous release aren't doing the genre any favors, and neither are the people who insist that at this point in time, they're on equal footing. In the future, who knows for sure, but now, there is one that is suitable for consumption and another that is trying hard to get there but isn't quite there yet. I think there is plenty of room to discuss Civ 5 design decisions, but we're still at the point where they're ironing things out. I am sure Elemental fans would be more than patient in that area after giving such leeway to Stardock... right?
All well said, Brad.
One thing about your post did stand out though...
Uh, what mods? Outside of the multiplayer shell (released well after MoM was an entrenched cult classic and bandied about on "best games of all time" lists) there were no major mods to MoM until fairly recently.
I'm not trying to put one side against the other at all, I have both games, played both, and I realize there are problems with both. I don't know how else to make this clearer. My point is that, when I hear people say something like, "Elemental is so broken right now, I'll be playing Civ V instead." In my mind, I'm thinking either they haven't actually played Civ V itself, are hypocrites, just saying it just to spite Brad and SD, or all of the above. Because having played both, I can tell you, both Civ V and Elemental have problems, some of which are eerily similar. To use Civ V as an example of quality against Elemental just make no sense. If they were serious about a quality product, they should stick with something like SC2, a game which I also have, even though I'm not a SC fan (I bought it mainly for the campaign and the amazing movies).
Get em Istari ban him ban all those who oppose Elemental please. )
I also wish everyone should have to register their game and have an icon to show they bought one before they can post in THIS forum. I also wish there were some way they had to show they bought CIV V before they could post about it in THIS forum as well. )
Without a register icon they can only READ posts, if they want to talk about the game there should be another forum for those unregistered to ask questions and that is all if they try to down the game they get banned. )
Do you really think your "Elemental Über Alles!" attitude helps this at all? I have NEVER seen you post anything but "Ban that guy for not loving Elemental" and variations of such and I'm really wondering if *YOU* even have the game and aren't just a very low-grade provocateur.
This sort of attitude, joking or not, isn't helpful. We'll make the determination if someone needs to be here or not. If you think something needs moderator action, report it. Otherwise, if all you've got to say is some variant of "go away", just don't post.
Didn't really read all pages here, but i'm really dissappointed with Civ V because of:
- the UI, it feels very console-ish- alot less micromanagement is required- happiness is now global- no more cool & stimulating wonder movies (all you see now is just a picture)- no religion- no spionage- you don't have to connect the ressources anymore to your cities- all units can now water, exploring the world is no real challenge.- the technoligy-tree is really short, it really does feel like civ revolution- no more sliders to adjust culture, science & income.- the titlescreen is boring, the title-music is just ok.- no cool statistics anymore- i really don't like the apple icons- the overall gameplay feels very casual now+ alot more i can't think of atmI'm trying to love it, but the more i play it the more i want to play Civ IV or Elemental instead of Civ V.
If anyone is looking through rose colored goggles it's you. I admited both games came out badly. Elemental endgame is unplayable for me so I stopped playing it. Civ V period is unplayable for me. I can only slog through the low framerate for only a few games before I uninstalled it and reinstalled Civ IV. Both games had absolutly abysmal AI, but at least one game has AI that's actually a threat. If you can turn the AI's armies into a joke by camping a single unit in a chokehold then it's bad plain and simple. And don't even get me started on how random and nonsensical the diplomacy AI is for Civ. Elemental's isn't perfect either but at least I know how it works. I won't have a friend declare war on me just because he felt like it even though he has like 3 units. The AI might eventually get fixed and improved for both games sure. But the graphical problem will remain for Civ V. I just don't see them changing the system specs anytime soon, at least there's hope for Elemental to get fixed and become a smoother experience for those who do have the required specs. Because Elemental knew who they were marketing towards. 90% of the fans of the 4x genre don't have the latest and greatest machines that can run games like Cysis on maximum. Most of them are still using Windows XP or Vista and are capped at 2GB ram. Civ V plain and simple is just ugly. The rivers are less detailed, the water is the same, the land feels more "flat", the cities look the same. The only real improvements are changing the fog of war from a black void to clouds while going from a square tile to a hexagon tile system. Which is very minor. Adding like 7 more bodies to a unit's model which is pointless. And changing the civ leader's diplomacy screens which is the only real drastic change. I'm not seeing why I need a brand new computer for clouds and hexagons. Sorry I'm just not buying it. And the diplomacy screen is it's own screen anyways it has nothing to do with the game rendering the world map.
You're seriously going to use review scores as proof that a game is bad or not? I've played poorly reviewed games that were amazing. I've played highly reveiwed games that were complete trash (I'm looking at you Modern Warfare 2 and Spore). I lost my faith in that system a long time ago. The point is both games came out unfinished. And for the most part just unplayable, whether for balance reasons or optimzation issues. And niether game should be "praised" for it. Especially the game that came from such a much higher budget.
Both games are TBS, and both games are crashing late game on big maps. So at this field they are even.
Civ has much better visuals, but pays for it with very long waiting for AI turn and insane hardware requirements as for TBS. While Elemental has not bad graphics (art style may be debatable but it is mater of taste), but elemental plays well on my laptop, nd i do not even dream of installing civ 5 here. IMO this also evens out. Pretty, slow and demanding vs not so pretty, but faster and mobile on laptop.
Both AI's are stupid and very easy to exploit. Same bugs like pumping out military units while on debt and with negative income.
Where they differ:
Civ 5 is consolized cut down version of something great. It is like they moved back to 1990's with game complexity. This game is aimed at "special Olympics" winners wannabes, for marketing "streamlined". It will give me feel of awesomeness for nothing.
Elemental is trying hard to explore new areas and add more challenge. Stardock is adding to genre and testing on us how it goes. I would prefer if they tested it on their QA workers, but i knew what i am into when i bought it. This game has potential to be fun and challenging, or at least is trying.
2k games will fix few bugs then they focus on DLC and expansion. For which i need to pay again to get waht i was promised on CIV box, but after shelling out 60 more euros.
Stardock is focusing now on delivering what they promised, and because i bought my copy before patch 1.1 i will get new expansion/DLC for free. So no scam like from 2k games here.
I've been reading posts from Civfanatics of CIV V burning up video cards like SC II. This doesn't bode well for 2k games or CIV V. Getting Elemental even with its little flaws is not as bad as Civ V now. Besides the Civ games have been done to death. At least Elemental is new an innovating and in a years time you won't even know it and maybe even "multiplayer" will be in the game by then. "_)) I'll get Civ V just like I did Civ IV when all the expansions and the "complete" gameset are $7.99 and not waste good money on just another donkey milking repeat game from the past.
I like both games for different reasons.
Each night I sit and cant decide which to play.
While pondering the question i start up League of Legends and get my face roflstomp'd.
Then i go to bed, having accomplished nothing.
Who cares. It does not matter. It's just games.
You guys are completely brainwashed. Civfanatics is like the No More Mutants of Civ forums where they have insane and aspergers people sperg out about the craziest thing. Civ 5 is a better game in every way and I think Stardock realizes this since they're pulling inspiration from the game. To say otherwise is being just as bad as the psycho civfanatics people.
Solid, I'm really getting kind of tired of reading your posts to be honest. If you want to crap on Elemental every post, do it elsewhere.
I like Civilization but saying it's better in "every way" is really over the top and insulting to everyone involved on the game. And while we look for inspiration for new ideas from many games, Civilization V is not one of those places. Not because Civ V isn't a fine game, but because its design is so fundamentally different than what we are going for in Elemental.
solid- I'd say that Civ stole from Brad, actually. In Civ IV: BTS they added random events, and in Civ V they have city-states, which are just like the minor races in Galciv2.
Eh. Given that the minor races make 1 pop cities that do nothing, it's not quite an apples and apples comparison.
To go really into left field, Civ's city-states remind me of "factions" in WoW (and probably other MMOs, but my only longterm experience is the aforementioned). You do quests for reputation and get items for your troubles. Higher rep = higher rewards.
We all steal from each other. I have absolutely no shame about stealing. I plan to steal a lot more from Master of Magic which itself stole from Civilization I.
My sons (11,12) have both been playing Civ V and enjoying it. They weren't interested in playing Civ IV, albeit that was a couple years ago and they're a little older and smarter now. However there's something about Civ V that's got them hooked. Even though it means more competition as to who gets to play, I think it's awesome.
Civ V runs just fine for me. On my 4th play through, and not a single crash. Defend your purchase, and Stardock, all you want. But don't do so by trashing other games. Even the worst review for Civ V (1up I believe) doesn't mention the game crashing. It mentions issues for sure. AI problems, and so on. Crashing? Not so much.
Between the two, Elemental is the one most likely to evolve though. Civ V is going to be tweaked, optimized and maybe added to with DLC and expansions, but I don't see a great deal changing. Firaxis doesn't really make big changes like that. I am hoping Elemental will shift into what I thought it would wind up being which is why I am still around.
And this is a good thing. I wouldn't want to see a "radical" change in the civ system. I want to play the same basic game that I've grown up with & love. Add more stuff, great, more units, buildings, features, awseome .. just don't change the game with "radical" redesigns. MOO3 took the "radical change" approach and created a totally different game that suxed in comparison to its predecessor, which was one of the best PC games I ever played. I still play MOO2 sometimes. When I buy civ V, I want to play civ not a completely different game. I've bought & played every version I to IV, and they've all been reasonable expansions of their predessors. I think I enjoyed II the best out of the first four. They didn't screw things up by radically changing the basic system, and I believe that's a good thing.
When you got something that works, don't fix it.
I think elemental is still in the "finding itself" stage. It's looking for its voice or however you want to phrase it. It's definitely a unique design that has its place in the PC game world, and even has the potential of being a truly great game up there with civ & moo2. I just feel it needs a lot of work yet & has a long way to go before getting there & hopefully won't get screwed up (more) in the process, otherwise it'll never find its place in the sun.
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