Basically, the game ain't great as it is. It's fun enough, but some of the mechanics are so laughably poor it's hard to remain positive in the face of such a epic fail on the part of Stardock.
This fail has been admitted by Brad and the reviews and sales (not to mention the layoffs on the back of that) speak for themselves.
The good news? Stardock bought themselves a SHITLOAD of goodwill with Gal Civ and Sins, and also a hell of a lot of fan loyalty. This loyalty isn't misplaced, I'm not a raging fanboy or a fire and brimstone doomsayer. I'm simply a fan who's been impressed by Stardock and it's people in the past but can still take a game on it's own merits.
I might be way off when I say this, but it seems Elemental suffered more than it flourished with Brad taking a big role in the development process. His love for the game is obvious, and his commitment was clear (for those who've been following Elemental you'll know this to be true) but what he gave in love he lost in objectivity. A game isn't great because you THINK it's great, and you can't just make bad choices because YOU like it that way.
Basically Stardock it seemed completely ignored the lessons the past masters of the genre have taught, and tried to build it all from scratch. Sadly, an epic fail.
So coming to the faults and solutions :-
1. The Magic System - In it's current state, it is truly pointless. There isn't any variation within the different spheres, and all spells are basically direct damage.
SOLUTION - Elemental Dev Team go play Age of Wonders 2 and Age of Wonders : Shadow Magic. Learn what it is to have a dynamic and exciting magic system, one that actually has buffs/debuffs that matter and more varierty (overland spells / tactical spells / summons / buffs / strategic).
2. Combat - As is, it's walk a big unit over to a lesser unit and press 1 button until dead. The only variation in battlefield is basically the colour of the ground. There are no fortifications (this ties into the Magic system as there are no spells for destroying fortifications either) and nothing that makes siegeing a city remotely hard.
SOLUTION - Again, learn from AoW2 and AoW : SM. The battlefields there are varied and make use of tactical things such as LoS and fortifications.
3. Unit/Research/Race Tech - The current situation is basically every unit (aside from creature allies which are one of the games good points) is a peasant with different equipment a different name. There are 10 races, and aside from skin colour and design, there might as well only be 2. We have 10 races and 2 tech trees, a lot of the technology being fantastically redundant. The units as well are in need of an overhaul. in AoW if I play Orcs I raid with Warg Riders and Warlords and Shamen, all with their own look and feel. IF I play Elves I get Archers and Centaurs and Trees, etc, etc.
SOLUTION - Learn from your own creations as well as the epic MOO and HOMM games. Gal Civ 2's tech trees were awesome...both varied and race specific. As far as units goes, if you want the game to have longevity you need to make it varied. Each race should have it's own look and feel, not just the homogenised 5 + 5 that we have at the moment.
What Elemental does well is the Quests and the Sovereign. That imo is the best part about the game, it needs some tweaking but it's good, and fresh. The style of the game is beautiful as well, can't fault the art guys.
In short, this game would have been a bigger hit if you just remade AoW2 with the arty painterly graphics and new engine. Fact. That isn't what we (the fans!) wanted, and it isn't what we expected, we expected an improvement if anything, but in all fairness it would have been a bigger success if thats the way it was done. And more importantly, it would have been more fun.
I'm sure over time Elemental will grow and become a better game, but I can't see it replacing any of the past masters as my (and many others, I'm sure) "go to" 4X fantasy game unless some DRASTIC changes are made
Tbh AoW was quite a failure itself. I say, to save Elemental devs shouldn't "just remake AoW2". They should remake MoM.
I'm a fan of the AoW series too, but I think the spells in MoM are even more interesting, so they are a better source of inspiration for the Elemental dev team.
if this waws more like CoD it would sell better cuz they sell 4 reasons duh gosh devs are so stupd
I don't understand, can you translate it to English?
This game is awesome and just needs a massive overhaul. I think I see more potential and longevity in this game than any other 4x Fantasy game out there. I honestly can't wait to see what this game plays like 1.1x I've been tempted to not even patch until then but alas that's like telling yourself you can't have a cookie when the jar is right infront of you. NUM NUM NUM NUM
Your nickname represents your inaccuracy. AoW:SM wasnt a fail in any way, it was by far the best 4x fantasy game ever created.And yes, Elemental would have been a bigger hit if they just remade AoW:SM (or MoM) with better graphics.
The thing is, they wanted to make something of "their own". Granted, it didnt work out so well because even the core gameplay elements werent even figured out or remotely balanced or well thought out, as the game got released (and still to this patch, it feels like the game is struggling against itself trying to figure out wtf its supposed to be or do).
thread after thread after thread saying turn Elemental into a sequel to an older game. this thread more specifically then others has an ironic title for that. FIX Elemental by turning into NOT Elemental. That makes NO sense. Then it WOULDN'T BE Elemental. Stop trying to talk Brad and his company into re-making other games you loved and let him make his own game, and maybe join him in loving it too. If you want the other games re-made then go to THEIR forums and leave Brad - and us - alone.
This weekend I am playing through the old 2003 title, Knights of the Old Republic. In it, you really struggle in fights until you become a Jedi (at least with the non-soldier classes). The relevance to Elemental:War of Magic, is that getting things done without using Magic should be possible (if futile) but when you really get rolling with Magic, it should really get the party started! Magic in Elemental is anything but Magic.
Everyone seems to want the magic system from Master of Magic, but has anyone thought about how Elemental might be better off with a magic system more like Dominions 3?
Playing AoW would be a solution for a flaccid magic system? I doubt it
There's various tiles on the battlefield that grant bonuses, although the AI seems completely unaware of this fact. Fixing that would be a start, fortifications would be nice, but I think the main issue there is a lack of distinction between units. More special abilities, more inherent differences between weapons and armour and similar would go a long way there.
You're right about that. The unit variation needs looking at as much as the magic system. I want Fairies and Elves and Angels and Orcish Warlords and Fallen Death Kings, etc, etc...not just the same guy with a different hairdo and a bigger sword.
The homogenised units are almost as lacking as the magic system. Stardock have a herculean feat ahead of them getting this game anywhere near decent.
What the game needs is equipment that grants special abilities:
Spears grant first - strike. (Sword-damage style but two-handed, counterattack BEFORE the attacker gets to attack. Heavily armored infantry will beat them since they survive the counterattack and attack spearmen with weaker defence (no shield), ditto archers, but an effective counter to two hander users.
Spiked Armor - armor that damages any unit that attacks it in melee. Armor of repelling - after the first attack, the attacker is pushed back one square. (Good for archers)
Triphammer - targets are stuck in place. They can still fight, they're just rooted to the ground. (A triphammer is a huge piledriver hammer.).
Ammunition types as an off-hand weapon for archers. Burning arrows, magic arrows, exploding seeking arrows of nuclear destruction, punching arrows... STUFF.
Ring of Defensive Teleportation. (If the unit would be killed by the attack, it teleports away to a random square. Saves it, but only once per battle, or eats mana.
Things like that. Don't make it too commonplace - preferrably, make equipping special gear for squads easier, but also make it possible to find special stuff that would be very useful for certain situations.
A good first theoretical step would be to create a few procedures for forced movement (push back the target to a free square, if none is available, the blocking unit is pushed back first, then the original unit, if the second unit is also blocked, the forced movement is blcoked instead... that sort of thing.). This effect could easily be added to spells as well.
I am a fan of the AoW series too, but I think the spells in Dominions 3. are even more interesting.
You've got some pretty cool ideas, fella.
Seperate Tech tree for each rase
MoM spells ++
Kingdom Champions / Empire Champions / Monster Champions
Robber Baron factions (no city faction, camp based that moves around)
More upgrades on buildings
Tons of Items, with random and predefined bonuses
Underground maps
Border forts, that must be taken to pass into influence area (just an idea on how to handle chokepoints)
Walls not auto generated by city
Water as main resource (different quality, filty, muddy, toxic(needs tech to purify) and pure water)
Persistant items, if a champion dies to a monster, the monster makes use of them, or dropped on ground as loot to pick up
Options at start (Limit cities, limit prestige, limit gold, option to turn off teams, and to disable any tech you dont want in your game)
Shapechange & mutations
Necromantic npc factions (just to add some spice)
Gold income reduced if robbers are inside your influence area
"Guard the Realm" automove and "Hunt" automove
Tech that can only be researched if you have captured a location, beast or item
Upgradable teams/units
Mana regen
There's reason people mention magic from Dominion3, AoW, and MoM, because they are interesting and fun to play. Elemental doesn't need to be exactly likely those games but it is a game, and it needs to be fun and interesting. And since it's a Magic 4x game, then it needs to have Magic that's fun and interesting. I think that's all people are asking for. If SD can make Elemental's magic system exciting to play in its own way, then that'll be great. But until Elemental is fixed to a point where it has its own magical charm, or until people can see a unique (and fun) aspect of magic system in this game, the inevitable comparison with older titles will continue.
To fix Elemental SD needs to take a closer look at these games mentioned above. What makes them fun and special?
Example: My favorite, AoW:SM, has awesome tactical combat. Just copy it and make some improvements, or add a special Elemental twist to it. Triumph studios included a lot of suggestions from the players to SM, so in a way they already did the job for Stardock. I don't see the point in SD recreating something from scratch when they will in the end come up with the same solutions to problems that another developer already did years ago.
We also need more fantasy feeling to the game. Right now it's a bunch of humans running around in a desert. This can be fixed easily with more races and more interesting terrains, quests, monsters. And dungeon crawls!
I say, release a stand alone expansion a year from now. All bugfixes included, a new campaign (a REAL campaign) and tons of new races and units. I'm 100% sure Ewom can be made a success.
Also see my MARRIAGE and LINEAGE post, I think it would be great if you could continue playing even if your Sov dies in enemy territory, as long as you have an Heir to the Throne.
Hate to break it to you, but if they just remade MOM with better graphics, the game would probably getting 8's and 9's instead of 4's and 5's.
Whether you approve or not.
Its too late to just remake it, but they could certainly borrow heavily from the spells and ideas.
Hate to break it to you, but you missed my point. If they just remade MOM it wouldn't be "the game" getting 8's and 9's, it would be a different game called MoM 2.
Have to place my agreement with those yelling MoM. AOW is still relatively modern, MoM on the other hand can be a challenge just to locate. Master of Magic is such an old game in comparison to the others being brought up that it's far more overdue for a sequel of some type, even though I agree Elemental isn't and shouldn't aim to simply be an updated clone, most "lessons learned" research done to enrich Elemental should come from Magic if any is to be done at all.
/snip
actually i disagree. what the game need more is a good stat system that includes most of these scenarios anyway. looking up the meaning of every special rule individually is really annoying. i should be able to tell what every unit can do at a glance once i know what the stats mean.
doing this would be a start
https://forums.elementalgame.com/395308
ie, rename combat speed Action Points then give every weapon a different attack cost. this would cover a lot of weapon variation
then introduce some sort of Magic Resistance stat (based on charisma perhaps?) that will allow us to have good offensive spells that aren't just direct damage.
then add some damage resistance stats (ie, subtract the first 5 points of fire damage from received by fire elementals). don't do percentages: they suck because at low levels a low percentage is worthless.
after that we need a charge bonus that gives a bonus to attack for cavalry in the turn that they charge (a property of the mounts, and also potentially for some weapons) so that we can actually represent the shock of a cavalry charge.
prevent units from counter-attacking units that come at them from the flank or rear, so that maneuvering matters. then give us maps that are big enough to do this.
then we will be approaching a decent combat system and can't start thinking about special abilities.
AoW's magic was mediocre and GalCiv2's tech was about as exciting as watching paint dry.
Really your whole post is just farcical, considering you overtly say Stardock should have just made Elemental: Age of Wonders 3 and then completely mis-identify AoW's strengths (hint: it's the tactical combat and unit diversity, everything else in the game is ho-hum).
You would be a terrible game designer.
And I'm not saying that to defend anything or anyone. Elemental is awful and Stardock should be ashamed of their shoddy work. No, I'm just saying this because you're a bona fide moron who pretty much exemplifies the mouthbreathing, neckbearded, armchair-designer-tryhard.
And yet I'm beset by self-important pricks like you who can't just read a comment and take it for what it is without resorting to insults. The fact is, AoW is a great game, it was on release and still is now, my original points hold true and if all you can muster is some adolescent insults you ain't gonna go far buddy, but seeing as you've opened the door, I don't mind getting a little verbal here.
Ever actually refuted a point with a debate instead of a scathing remark?
Also, learn to read before you type a load of bollocks. I clearly mention other games as well as the "tactical combat and unit diversity". Or are you blind as well as stupid?
Lol. Dickhead.
Take your own advice.
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