Not to mention that one comes with a 'stigma' that hurts potential future jobs, resumes and references and the other doesn't.  I think that actually may be the most important distinction.

Sorry Annatar11, but I just don't see an attempt to be political here.  It is what it is and the difference is relevant.

Here's the problem, Stryck:

Releasing fundamentally broken and ill-designed games (as admitted by Brad and Boggie in various posts) does nothing whatsoever to help support PC gaming, nor the indie development side.

While this is no AAA shop with multi-million dollar budgets per release, putting out games that are priced at a similar point while showing little of the "quality" (subjective mind you) nor "polish" (less so) does nearly irreparable harm to Stardock.  Granted the release does little to dissuade hardened fans of Stardock, it sends a very strong message to your average TBS or fantasy type that picked up this game knowing or caring little about Stardock's indie street cred or dedication to supporting games post release.

Were I in the position of looking for a fantasy TBS game, didn't have some preconceived notions or love for Stardock and saw the all too legitimate reviews from the professionals and customers...  I'd steer clear in a big way.

You can buy as many copies as you want, and I laud you for supporting a company you love with your wallet.  But short of doing some heroic bailing to stem the tide of negative reviews (insofar as bug fixes, then far more importantly major gameplay reworks) it's just not enough.

Real world consequences are tough, especially now. 

Taking responsibility for "your disasterous judgement" is rather valiant of you, but I think that much of the criticism is overblown.

I have been playing the game and really enjoying it for what it is.  When I see posts like Mtrixis' UI feedback thread https://forums.stardock.com/393693 it illuminates what the game could be... which is quite a bit better than what it is.

The game is fun though.  I hope this turns into a big win for you guys longterm... maybe by highlighting what it is (in my mind) that makes you guys at Stardock outstanding as game developers--that you are so responsive to customer feedback for quite a long haul, and support and polish a game until it is top notch.

My sympathies for those looking for work...  maybe the trolls and flameheads will feel a bit less demanding and entitled, as those people no longer "owe" them anything...

-ENSAIS

I don't think that's really true. They do believe in it, and they're committed to fixing it. But the fact remains that the launch was to put it charitably, not smooth. The result is going to be lost sales.

If they polish things up and then nail the expansion, a re-review can turn a lot of this around. But that's a ways off, and in the mean time the business has to be managed based on the revenue that it has. At the moment, the revenue doesn't support a second game studio.

Does it suck for the people out of work? Absolutely! Nobody is happy about that, including Brad.

Running a business does suck sometimes, but doing things you don't have the money to do is a good way to go bankrupt and put a lot of other good people out of work.

I don't think anyone is rooting AGAINST stardock or the game. We've all want it to succeed. No one is gloating. It really is awful that there are people who are out of work and now have to struggle in this economy because of the overall decisions made. Thats what we should really care about. Not some corporation or fanboyism or PC gaming. It's some real life heavy shit when you have no money and you're struggling. All of us should thank our lucky asses that we are able to even afford to play games like this. It's just a shame that people get upset when Stardock is rightfully criticized for what happened. I respect Brad for owning up and I know he's hurting because I can tell he's really passionate about this project. I'd feel the same way if something I put a lot of effort into was trashed but at the end of the day he can still go on vacations, has a job, can pay that mortgage or whatever.

It's just a sticky and heavy situation with many layers and so many different people have so many different perceptions of it. The only thing we can hope for and I think we all agree on is this: those people that were terminated get back on their feet and elemental and stardock fixes itself so they can get these people back and the company gets back on track.

Thats my rambling. Ciao.

You have to do what is necessary to keep a business going.

Flagship studios (remember hellgate?) was one such business that didn't face up to reality.

This happens all the time when business'es do poorly.

My condolences to the people who were laid off.

Historically, intellectual property will be sold by the CEO/Investor once it becomes clear that it's not a profitable venture.  I sure hope Elemental doesn't wind up as the world's first Pay-2-Play Korean 4X MMO.  Bill Roper isn't steering this ship, so I'm certain we're in good hands.

Right?

In spite of the ill topic at hand, I have faith that Elemental will do well in the long run.  I'm not going to pretend I know about the financial situation present, but I am sure things will settle out for stardock in the long run.  Based on what I'm seeing that Elemental is simply going to be another sleeper title, but I feel strongly that it will still be successful.  Its strange to see some of you jumping into some sort of my fellow fans giving them flak for having financial troubles.  Frogboy says they are continuing to strive to make Elemental an especially great game and for what reason does anybody have not to believe him?

I personally feel that if it had soaked in the bug-cleaning phase a little longer before release it could have avoided at least some of the negative press, but even still everybody I know who has played it can clearly see the game has a lot of potential.  Reviewers are no different, and while I would love to make a shot at a few and their apparent lack of souls, they would not do their own communities the injustice of failing to acknowledge elemental's changes over time.

Financial reasons are a fairly good reason not to prolong a games development, and somebody had to make the judgement call of weighing the cost of waiting vs. releasing.  Stardock made the choices they made so they can continue to improve Elemental in a way that ensures there will be some kind of product released but allows Stardock to focus on "improving" rather than "creating" as the primary development strategy.  While their open betas allow this to some extent, it is not the same.  To show this point, where was all this feedback in beta 4?

Does anybody remember "Startopia"?    That game is AMAZING!    its like elemental in that it was released with tons of bugs, however unlike elemental it's release was not planned in such a way that they could continue to support it after its release.  So as a result, we have just an unplayable.   Elemental is already passed Startopia in stability with patch 1.07.   Startopia didn't have 7 patches.... heck, I don't think it had more than 1.  The company was trying to work on 2 projects at that time, so to meet their schedule they had to sacrifice the quality of one game and move their staff to the second game.  Then they went under.    

Notice how that is not what stardock is doing. Stardock released their game, alotting time to focus on quality (providing multiplayer, book 2+, and so on later down the road) and not jumping on their planned future title(s) until Elemental is to the standard they expect.  Would some of you seriously want a higher production value but unsupported title instead of what you have?  Furthermore criticize them for trying to manage their spending?

I thought Brad said Elemental wasn't rushed out, that Stardock didn't rely on game sales and that even if they didn't sell another copy that the team would work on improving Elemental for the next 2 years.

Guess Brad led a lot of you astray ... as my first dealings with Stardock was the game Elemental, I really do not understand where all the loyalty comes from. He seems like a real tool

Stardock doesn't especially relay on game sales to completely function -- but elemental exists to make money.  There's no point on blowing money on producing a game if it doesn't reinvest itself in some way.

And the 2 years is an understatement,  they improved GalCiv2 for many years after it's release.  I doubt elemental will be different in that regard.

Something doesn't add up. Didn't Brad say that they broke even just on pre-orders alone? If that's the case then any sales after pre-orders is pure profit. Is Brad saying that sales are so bad that they didn't make any profit?

Show of hands. Who got a refund on their pre-order? Reason I want to know is that's practically the only way that revenue projections could be so bad as to lead to layoffs. All of  the diehard fanboys are keeping their copies, right? It just doesn't add up. Poor revenue can only mean one thing. Massive returns.

Not necessarily Tevans if they were so overconfident on "projected sales figures" that they started to put the cart before the horse it could easily lead to this situation on its own just from poor sales after release. Breaking even from preorders and making a profit large enough to sustain future development of projects for a 2nd team are completely different things.

Not true on this either. The second team could easily have been planned to start development of one of the future aspects of elemental (as in expansion content or DLC) while the main team focused on support and other aspects of the game. (or the other way around of course, now we will never know)

I don't. Too many things don't add up. Elemental being in such bad shape almost smells like a cash grab. That's after we were told that Stardock doesn't depend on their game studio as their source of income and there would be no financial pressure to release early. Then we were told Stardock has no other games in the works for two years. Now we're told one team was to continue work on Elemental while the 2nd team worked on future games. Now there's layoffs which Brad says hasn't happened at Stardock since 1997. Something is not right.

We all know that Elemental is not a Stardock quality game. Brad's excuse was that everyone, mostly Brad, was too close to the project. Sorry but I find that a little unbelievable. Everybody at Stardock felt that the game was ready for release? There were no voices of dissent? That's unbelievable. We already know there were beta testers who questioned an August release. It seems like they were hellbent on a August release no matter what. I think there's a lot things we're not being told so I don't have any faith Elemental doing well in the long run. If, heaven forbid, Stardock is in financial trouble we won't be told. Brad has already implied more layoffs are coming and that his employees already know it. That doesn't bode well for the future of Elemental. I hope I'm wrong but a lot of things that we're being told just doesn't add up.