http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/65443
If not, you guys might want to respond to this.
Not knowing the direction Stardock was going (but very intrigued with it), earlier I made the speculation that Stardock was attempting a new release strategy, where they release Elemental in an early state, get the revenue flowing early, and get the feedback from the user community. Then with that information they could steer SD with more up-to-date information of where they stand. They could then re-invest the Elemental revenue into improving it and hopefully milk more revenue. Or, if Elemental launch was dismal, they could instead decide not to bet even more on a losing horse. An unorthodox strategy, but a reasonable one considering Galciv II went down not that much differently.
Frogboy essentially rebutted that, saying that Elemental was not core to Stardock's financial situation--that Stardock derives most of their revenue from non-game products. Actually SD is going this other direction--not the one I outlined. Then the layoffs happened, and we've got new information: in fact Elemental *IS* important to SD's financial situation. Elemental is funded by other, non-game products; and Elemental, in turn, was supposed to fund something else. There is nothing in Stardock's strategy to have Elemental fund Elemental.
My issue is that it was implied that games are not critical to Stardock's bottom line. Now we know, they are. Personally I never would have thought otherwise, except that's what I felt I was told.
Well here goes another round of insults on these forums. Personally I think we should be left out of the business end of Stardock. The only thing that should matter is the product they sell to us and in this case the product was pretty piss poor. Now why don't we all join hands and sing "We are the World" or "Kum-by-yah". Somebody tell me exactly how Brad admitting to laying off people makes him a stand-up guy? It's a really crappy thing to do especially with the economy the way it is. Seems to me like a way to deflect blame. "Elemental didn't sell well so we're laying you off". Well who's fault was that? Just a few days ago Brad took full responsibility and now some of his people pay the price. That's not right. If anything these past 2 weeks have given us an inside look at the inner workings of Stardock. Apparently everybody has to be a "yes" man willing to kiss Brad's ass. Sorry but it's pretty unbelievable to think or be told that not one person at Stardock thought that Elemental wasn't that good or was being released too soon. Sorry to those who got laid off. You have my sympathy but in the long run you'll be better off not working for a guy like Brad.
If this post gets me banned then so be it. I'm fed up with all the Brad is a god talk. I thought maybe he was a standup guy by taking the responsibility for putting out such a bad product. I was wrong. Brad is not a standup guy. My impression of Brad now is that he will say or do anything to deflect blame from himself and to make a sale. That's not the type of person I want to do business with.
It seems to me that the very nature of corperations is creative destruction. They create and and destroy, they love you until until you don't serve the corperation's purposes anymore, then they spit you out. There are many many people who have lost jobs becuse they corperation cannot survive if these people stay on. It is sad, but the nature of capitolism, thus not unexpected that Stardock has had to follow suit with the rest of Counrty. I am shocked that is has taken so long for you to do so.
This is true. If layoffs occur because Elemental did not do well, then it is Elemental who should take the hit. Who is it that did not deliver-someone on the Elemental team, or someone on this second team that had nothing to do with it?
Thing is, managers are not in the business of levying justice. Their job is to run the business. If they decide to keep Elemental alive--which is a reasonably good business decision--then the people already on the staff already intimately know the source code, release processes, IDE configurations, etc.. You have to keep them on board if you are to have any chance of keeping Elemental alive. That leaves the stark reality: money out > money in. You have to balance the books. So you let go of the people who do NOT have you by the balls already. And identify what went poorly on Elemental. Identifying WHO went poorly on Elemental is a discussion for a later time.
Commiserations to those that lost their jobs. All the best for the future.
I was disappointed in the actual game being so buggy; I pre ordered it and after attempting to play it a couple of times I went back to playing some TF2 whenver I have a little gaming time, with the idea that I will play Elemental in a few weeks once it gets patched up properly.
Not sure thats the best way to do a launch, might have been better to simply postpone the release a couple of weeks... but hindight is 20-20. As for layoffs, it happens people. Stop freaking out.
And 50 dollars is not a lot of money; if you are someone who feels like you wasted 50 dollars, then welcome to reality. Not every purchase made in life will give you the value you anticipated. I have paid for PPV fights that sucked a lot worse than Elemental; and once they were over there wasnt even a hope that I would get added value from them later. With Elemental there is still a chance to get some value for that 50 bucks spent; maybe from patches, maybe from community mods later on, who knows.... but at least there is a chance. I have made worse purchases -- Napoleon Total war, and Arsenal of Democracy are two that come to mind... and those titles dont even have a chance of getting better, the companies that produced them have moved on to other things. But Im not wasting time bitching and moaning about them-- so i wasted some money on them, oh well. Life goes on.
Keep your chin up Stardock; if it really gets bad financially maybe you can offer to sell yourselves to one of Microsofts puppet kingdoms that seem to own 90% of the rest of development land? There are worse fates. Developing software is difficult, I have worked for more than one company that ended up going under after dumping lots of money and man-hours into projects that never got completed, its just a risk of modern capitalism that companies (especially small ones) have to deal with. Try to be more understanding if possible guys, sometimes it is not anyones "fault" at all, its just a confluence of events. All I can ask as a consumer is an honest effort at delivering a good product, and if the product is kind of sucky, an honest attempt at restitution (via fixing it or refunding, either works for me). Good luck at FIXING IT Stardock! I wish you all the best.
May I express the very same feelings of deep empathy and good wishes -- as many others have expressed on this thread ?
I didn't think game was *that* bad, but I guess people disagreed... With that said, I don't see how anyone who played in Beta could have misread writing on the wall and considered game anywhere near release ready. Release-day miracle patches don't ever work and Frog's cocky attitude (i.e. it compiled comments) did not help any.
Frog, next person you going to hire - make it PR/Community manager.
Who is "everyone" because I don't see "everyone" kissing anyone's ass.
Some? Yes. There's some that aren't.
I think all of us are feeling badly for the people being laid off.
It happens, its a business, and it sucks. It wouldbe nice if everything could go on with unlimited funding, but that is not the case. They sacrifced a few to save the whole, which is the only way to operate.
Well whats done is done. Let this be another experience for Stardock. Learn from failure, not learning from success. It is harse. But thats what happened here, and you guys learn it the hard way. Let this be a lesson in the future. Some of us still respect SD despite the calamity. And we will expect MORE out of SD in the future because of this.
Commenting, here, on Stardock CEO Frogboy's reply # 60 to the cheap shot sent in his direction at post # 52 :
Frogboy post # 60 is extremely impressive in its cool, calm, polite tone and style -- taking care to express reasonable explanations, in reply to an unreasonable guy who didn't merit any serious explanation from the owner of a hard-working corporation.
Extremely rare are CEOs who take the time and trouble to read numerous forum posts and to compose analytical replies -- even to nasty and petty users who do not merit any waste of time.
If this statement of mine brands me as a frog-*** kisser, so be it !
(As a French-Canadian, I've been called a few times by local Anglos ... but never frog-*** kisser.)
I hope you've known me enough around these forums and IRC to know that I'm not trying to spew off haterade for any of this, but this is the reality of the matter, from what I've seen outside of Stardock- and I've been labelled a "Stardock apologist" on one of these forums. If this comes off as rude here, I apolgize in advance, but this is how I see things right now, as one of your loyal customers.
To be blunt here, your actions of the past few weeks have been a PR disaster, and it did look like you fired them from your vacation house for your mistakes- and that doesn't sit over too well with Americans in general right now, even though it wasn't the case. With the economy suffering and many young people out of jobs, you look like one of the bad guys to them. There's also been complaints about the refunding- that you're only offering 75% to folks hassle-free- which isn't helping. I understand why you doing this, and in other cases it would make sense, but with this plus the appearance of rushing out the game , it appeared to folks that you had reneged on the GBOR- and you looked like a hypocrite.
Quite honestly- Stardock's reputation has hit bottom among folks who aren't your loyal customers. While I hope you can win them back, and if you do your part I will do mine- as I am a fan of yours still, it's going to be VERY hard- possibly the hardest thing you've done since 1998. That said, from what I've seen from your statements, you know this and are going to do your best for it. I've seen a few people mention that they'll look at the game again when it's ready.
My suggested actions:
First off, no more hassles on refunds, and I'd suggest the people you gave 75% refunds to- give them the game reg back, let them update until XP1, and let them know that you'll give them the other 25% then if they don't like it. They don't get the XP for free though. That may be too generous, but I think it's a net profit idea- you're not going to ever make money off the 75% again otherwise.
Even though this appear to screw over some of the long-term customers like myself, I think a stand-alone release of your 2nd XP as Elemental 2 might be a good idea. I think most of us by that point will feel like we got enough value that we'll understand and re-buy. The positive reviews of a polished product is the one thing that will wipe away what happened- and that's the safest way to do it.
There is some misinformation out there, one of my friend's livejournal posts said you had fired the entire Elemental team, and was sad for them. (He thinks the game is decent though the AI sucks)
Conclusion:
Ultimately, what I want you to do, is to make stuff I want to buy, or in Elemental's case- make what I bought worth what I paid for it. This is how capitalism works . If SD hasn't earned the reputation it had from me with GC2 and even GC1, a game which got me through tech school in the AF, I would probably be asking for a refund myself. You've earned a second chance from me, and you're using it now.
It's going to be a tough slog, and you dug a pretty large for yourself, but it's not impossible. You've bounced back from the brink once- and I think you can do it again.
Once the game gets its footing. Brad, you should release a Directors cut... kinda like what the Witcher did!
With all due respect, Frogboy, this is a bad time to try and use flowery language. Sadly, there is not a "world of difference" - the bottom line is those people are out of a job. The only difference is that "terminating" is done because an employee essentially screwed up majorly (and usually doesn't get qualified for unemployment because of it), while "laying off" is done for reasons outside of their performance. So, while financially for those affected it is better to be laid off than fired, it is morally unjustifiable that they pay with their jobs and source of income for mistakes they did not commit. There's no wiggle room for flowery language here.
If I was to be out of a job, I sure would 100% rather it be to poor projections/planning/earnings then because the company thought I should be fired because it was my fault.
As for the news, I am sorry to hear, but shall remain a loyal customer!
Oddly, I had planned on applying for a support position at Stardock next year... (I do software tech support and have for years, and am a short commute away... actually I may very well still! Maybe they need me!!!? )
My suggestions, sir... DONT FEED THE TROLLS. Dont response to comments like that, sir.
I really hope it turns out, honestly. However, make sure you play more games -
My thoughts on the matter was... how much revenue did Elemental make versus what it did not make. I am sure the first week is pretty much on par with what was expected. The people who love SD bought it. The people who love 4X probably bought it. Some people on the fence bought it. I am betting that even if the game was a wild 9.9 out of 10.0 success to most reviewers that the overal income would have been the same, no? Unless the projected income was from mass buying of the untapped market that is outside of the normal purcashing of 4X games. Were they expecting the same people who purchased StarCraft 2 (which was not that long ago) to start purchasing Elemental enmasse as well? Was midnight openings at bestbuy and Gamestop even planned? Nope. I have a feeling... after reading this comment and thinking about it. That Brad and SD still made money from Elemental. I am going to guess that they still made more than they lost. Guessing (I have no figures and no facts). I am also guessing that someone at SD knew this game would BOMB.
Why do I say that?
Let us look at this:How many Gamestops and BestBuys opened at midnight to release this game? How many copies were sent to Gamestop and BestBuy? We all know Gamestop normally hates the PC market. However, they sell important PC games. Yet copies of this game were either not at all stores or very few. The Gamestop I normally go to (and I dont buy many games) did not even get a copy of this game to sell. The Bestbuy at my work has an inventory list of 3 copies of this game at their store - but they claimed they never got their truck shipment of this game.
Very interesting how this game was suppose to fuel the next investments of Stardock - but, there were so few copies that ... even if the game was a glaring sucess and perfection... that we could not buy this game enmasse. There was no ... or very little... marketing campaign. SHOOT. I think it was mostly word of mouth... and I gut my arse handed to me by fanbois. However, let us assume the game was a perfection and it was revolutionary and every review of it was a 9.0 or higher... or 4.5 out of 5.0 or a 5 out of 5 ... or a 92% or better review...
Could this game brought in the revenue? Was there enough stock and enough product out on the market to sell this game to make it a success?
It just does not seem so. Almost like, someone realized... why bother ... thats more returns and more overhead and we need to make sure to keep the returns and overhead to a minimum on purpose.... makes me wonder, no?
I expect less and will need to be more cautious is the way how I read it. Buyer be warned. If stardock makes a product wait a month and read ALL the reviews before even CONSIDERING to buy a Stardock purchase. THEN, once they make a few good games. I will see if I am willing to risk an opening day or opening weekend sale. I do not have money to flaunt around.
However, it was none of those things.
Stardock and Frogboy have earned a lot respect from me over the several years I've been around. However, I have a hard time feeling sympathy for his situation. He has already posted several times taking the responsibility for Elemental's launch. But, while the consequence of that self-admitted failure was for several Stardock employees (who he himself said did nothing wrong) to lose their jobs, seemingly the only consequence for him was... cutting his vacation a few days short.
Perhaps we will learn more of what's going to happen after the holiday, but for now I can only bring myself to feel huge sympathy for those who lost their jobs. For him to try to argue the distinction between him firing or him laying off is rubbing salt in the wound to the people who lost their jobs because of his mistake in the first place.
I'll always have a lot of respect for Stardock and will remain a loyal customer, but at the moment I'm not sure how much respect I'll have for the man in charge.
Having personally experienced both situations I will say that it makes a huge difference. One is an unfortunate situation outside of your control, the other is a direct reflection on you. When you're laid off it sucks, suddenly your world is thrown off track. You've got to figure out how to make ends meet and start looking for another job. Getting fired is so much worse since you have to deal with all the bad from a lay off plus the fact that you may need to reevaluate your line of work, personal behavior, work ethic, etc. and live with the knowledge that this thing did not simply happen to you but that you had a hand in it. Not to mention it's a huge black mark for future employers.
The difference may be primarily psychological but it is massive none the less.
*Also fired employees only fail to qualify for unemployment if they were fired "for cause" which generally is loosely defined as willful misconduct. So in terms of unemployment benefits there would be no difference in this case.
Actually getting fired for cause can cause unemployment to be delayed or taken away, at least in North Carolina.
As for the comments earlier about the game being unviable- I think they're projecting that the bad reviews/drama is going to lead people to avoid the game in future, which means unsold retail copies and fewer after-purchase downloads. So it's missing revenue later more then missing revenue now.
This is also why I don't think the situation is as dire as some people think, in the short-term. One good game and it's all forgiven- gamers have short memories.
This is very sad to hear but I do hope that some good can come out of this. I don't want Stardock to go under or be enveloped by Electronic Arts. Brad, I hope you guys pull through this and continue on. Your one of the few developers these days that make interesting and unique games built on the classics. You guys are an endangered species in the industry.
Sorry to hear this, but i do hope that as things go on you'll be able to restart your goal of having 2 teams working on games and that goal won't be to far away from now.
That makes absolutely no sense. Major retail chains do midnight releases for mainstream titles that are predicted to sell millions of copies and typically have budgets of over $20M. As for marketing heck the marketing budget for MW2 (~$150M) was 3x the dev costs (~$50M). Outlying the kind of marketing cash it takes to make a midnight release worthwhile for retailers costs more than the total net worth of Stardock.
Also SD games (along with many niche and smaller studio games) have what is typically called a "long tail" after the way their sales charts look. They do not sell massive numbers on opening weekend and then peter off to nothing as soon as the next big thing comes out as many mainstream AAA titles do. Rather they sell slowly but steadily over a long period of time since there is no next big thing in their niche market. Of course that long tail is heavily dependent on it being a quality product and having good word of mouth. Elementals word of mouth has been deservedly ruined by a bad first impression and is unlikely to recover. So even if it becomes a quality product that long tail is depressed by the permanently tainted word of mouth.
Not to mention the costs of returns and the inevitable discounting by retailers which largely comes out of SDs pocket. So it makes sense that both longterm and shortterm revenue would be downgraded in light of the launch.
There is another story out of joystiq saying that the total number is 20 to get laid off....due to the fact they can no pay the creditors who backed the game. So many stories out there, and they qoutea source(which could be their dog for all we know, or some creep named Matt(with two t's))
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/09/04/el...rdock-layoffs/
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