Sorry for the dissertation, but if you are bored while waiting for Elemental to get fixed and want to contemplate the silliness of the human psyche....
I must admit I don't understand all the anger/people saying Stardock should have delayed releasing Elemental until February 2011. It seems to me that EVERYONE is better off with the game released and in players' hands, rather than having Stardock work on it internally for another 6 months before release:
1.) Stardock
Obvious - better off cause they have people's money, and can get players to do their "beta testing", find bugs, etc. without having to pay them...big win.
2.) Players who like the game
"Fanboys" or not, there are apparently a lot of people (50%-ish in the poll, and some positive comments in the forums) who are enjoying playing the game, even if they realize it is not perfect. They are happy it is out now so they get 6 months more of enjoyment. Plus the ability to make suggestions, which means the game will be better by Feb 2011 than it would be if it was just in Stardock's hands internally...let's face it, the official beta-testing process was not, and would not have been, as intense as what is happening now that the game is released - i.e. whenever the game got released players would have a lot of complaints/suggestions, and this way they are taken care of now, rather than 6 months from now. So you get to have whatever fun you can have with the game now, PLUS have the game in better shape by next February than it would otherwise be...PLUS have Stardock feeling bad and more likely to give additional free content that they were planning on charging for going forward = big win for this group, as well.
3.) Players who hate/are frustrated by the game in current form
Okay, you hate the game. Don't play it until next February, and you are in the same place you'd be if they didn't release it until then. Only you are even BETTER off, becasue of the reasons outlined above....you at least have the chance to make suggestions, and/or have other people climbing all over the game and improving it, so it will be better this way by February 2011 than it would have been if they didn't release it until then. Plus more Stardock effort/free stuff, as above. Okay, you had to put up your $50 now. But since you were going to spend $50 next February, you didn't LOSE $50, you just lost the use of that $50 for 6 months. Left in the bank, at the current .1% interest, that "costs" you $.025 in interest (pre-tax!). That sucks, but only a little. I would think if you were going to plop down $50 in 6 months anyways, plopping down, in effect, $50.025 now to get a more-robust, fully tested and vetted game in 6 months that you can mess around with now if you feel like it (and ignore if you don't), PLUS get Stardock's extra effort to make up the problem stuff, seems like a pretty good deal. So ignore the game, come back in February, and have a better game due to the "early" release than you would have had otherwise. If losing out on the $.025 interest on your money for 6 months really annoys you, get a refund and rebuy later - annoying, but not catastrophic, especially relative to the "free look" at maybe enjoying the game now and definelty enjoying the game more once it's been refined by the rest of the public. Either way, the "pre-mature" release seems like a small win even for this group.
I understand if a company releases a game that's not ready, takes your money, and walks away...that REALLY sucks, and no one wants to support the trend of companies doing that. But no one, even those who hate the game in it's current form, appears to think Stardock is going to do that.
Feeling like you are going to get something great, and then having to wait, is annoying...but you'd have to wait if they delayed the release, too. And buying something you thought you'd like, and having to go through the hassle of getting a refund cause you need the money to buy something else to amuse yourself, is also annoying. But it also seems that the annoyance is small compared to the CHANCE to get a look at something early...you might like it..you might not like it but like the chance to help reshape it...you probably will like it more in 6 months than you would have if the release was delayed...it just seems to me that if you really THINK about it, we should ALL be glad Stardock released this game now rather than working on it internally until Febrauary of next year... Stardock wins; people who are enjoying the game now win, and even people who dislike the game in it's current format kinda win. So why the hate?!?!
...if you truly believe that they will continue to improve the game as much as they would have if they kept it internal for 6 more months, the "early" release is a GREAT thing for EVERYONE (like how the capital letters make my points so much stronger.."look, it's in capitals..must be right!"). And it gets even better if you STOP writing how much you hate the game in the forums, and let other people help improve it for you without the distraction!!
Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!
I think the main reason everyone including Brad is so jumpy now is because everyone understood on some level the awesomeness of the idea and unfortunately the current state of the game brought everyone back to reality. People don't like to hear a truth they don't want to hear. The truth Brad had to hear was that he failed. He didn't want to hear it. I wouldn't have wanted to hear it as well (neither of my failure, nor of Brads, in fact). Especially if it happens on such a level. But the others also don't want to hear that their dreamchild, that perfect game, didn't materialize. Despite all the best intentions.
Fortunately we are living in a mature world. Brad, to my big respect, acknowledged his part of the failure. I'm not sure whether his employees also realize their part of the guilt: I don't believe everyone in his team had their eyes as blind as Brad had. But none of them had the courage to go to Brad and punch the truth into him such that it sinks in at the risk of getting fired. I don't want to theoretize too much on this, but such collective group non-courage is the typical real reason for large scale failures of any kind. Even the best leader can make a mistake. It is the task of his 'minions' to at least point it out to him such that he can decide whether to willingly still do the mistake because of some other reasons, or to reconsider.
But also the forum dwellers are now starting to realize the truth and that there is no way around waiting another half year at least. (And I so understand Brads intention to give it to us as soon as possible!) Some of them get the fits out of this, but most are mature enough to live with it and wait. Especially in light of the fact that Brad, despite all the hate storm, is already making promises to try to fix this.
Please everyone realize that in the long run this means that Brad is paying several hundreds of thousands of dollars in an attempt to fix something that he damaged. This is because from an economical point of view, it would be more profitable to don Elemental and quickly move on. To make Elemental 2 within 2 years and try to forget this situation as soon as possible. Who of all you would willingly pay such a sum (or more) to fix your own failure, provided that you could, of course?
And here is a plea to Brad: Please install some kind of feedback gathering process that allows you to garner opinions of these (and possibly other) forums in order to better listen to the people buying your games. A process that is more efficient than reading all posts, and has a higher resolution that a weekly poll. Though perhaps even that, on selected topics could provide much insight (just remember that poll you did after I argued with you on length about tactical battles in Galciv2. To your surprise it showed that a clear majority would want them in, as opposed to the cinematics, despite all the disadvantages it had about which you were right nontheless).
Perhaps we could try out the liquid democracy approach here? Or pick the most informative posts concerning some part of the game, for example said tactical battles, or spells, or... and link them in the poll, asking the people to choose between them.
I think its an insult to the intelligence of the average customer to release a game in the state this game was released in. Seeing a rabid fanboy claim that anyone who didnt like the game must be a software pirate is even more insulting. And the refusal to offer full refunds to those of is that dont like to pay in order to beta test a product is the straw that breaks that camels back.
Today I finally concluded a 1 week long "discussion" with Stardocks support and finally got my 100% refund for the unfinished product they sold me 1½ weeks ago. For a company that claims to be champions of the gamers right to demand quality products, their customer service and refund policies are quite disapointing. Maybe I'm just used to being treated better because I live in a country (Denmark) where there are laws protecting my rights as a consumer, and therefore I quite naturally assume that living up to those laws are the minimum level of customer service to expect. So when Stardock doesn't even live up to what I consider the bare essentials, it sure is hard to see them as a company that treats their customers well.
In the end I had to make them aware of the laws apply to anyone selling products directly to consumers living in Denmark are obliged to respect and follow, before finally refunded 100% of the purchase price. Honestly, I think that should have been offered to everyone who bought the game, including those who are not lucky enough to be entitled to it by virtue of local consumer protection laws. It was a big shock to me that it was even necesary to bring up the legal side of the equation to make Stardock do the right thing. Technically, it's their duty to be aware of and follow the laws that apply to any country where they sell their product directly, as is done via Impulse.
One thing is certain: I'm never buying anything through Impulse again. I used to think it was a great way to support developers by giving them the full purchase price instead of making them split it with the entire chain of distribution that is involved when the game is bought at a local store. We all know that when we pay 50$ for a piece of software in the local brick and mortar store, only a fraction of that goes to the developer. But after having spent a week of mailing back and forth with Stardocks support, buying from Impulse is out of the question in the future. Instead my purchases will done done by ordering the physical game boxes in a webshop where I can count on being able to return it when there is a problem. So while I may buy Elemental again in the future if the game reaches a more polished and complete state, it will be bought through a more traditional channel where Stardock only gets a fraction of the money and the majority goes to the rest of the distribution chain. Its the only way I can be certain to get decent customer support.
Well, this is exactly what I meant with 'jumpy'. At least in Germany the legal side of things is a little bit more differentiated. Here it says that the producer/manufacturer can improve his product three times. If you are still unhappy by then, then you get full refund. Naturally, this could be translated into 'three patches', but here I hope we'll be getting more than three patches. Hence, legally, it is my decision to give the manufacturer more than three chances to improve.
No worries. Just didn't quite get the reference.
In terms of economics, it makes sense to fix Elemental instead of junking it. In the short-term , you lose money, but in the long-term, you build goodwill and make money. Most of the people who are staying the course with EWOM right now, are GC2 customers- which SD gave awesome post-release support to in the past. That expenditure is paying dividends right now- if SD had given average support, EWOM , and probably SD would have been written off by folks. In another game forum, I see the people who didn't buy GC2, who did pre-order EWOM, are the ones most furious, because they've never seen what SD does to games post-release, so they're not expecting it to be fixed.
Some of the ones who are used to Paradox stuff are being patient, but even they are saying they'll never pre-order again, they'll just wait six months like you're Paradox .
Treating your customers right earns you a bit of rope when things don't go well. Treat your customers wrong, and they'll abandon you the first chance they get.
....and soon to come: Trog Porn.
..so when is that coming? >.>
In Denmark the law differenciates between products sold in a physical store and products sold through various remote means (mail order, internet shopping and basically anything else where you do not walk into a store and take the product with you from there). Anything sold through remote sales is subject to 14 day no-questions-asked right to return the product, on the condition that it is returned in roughly the same state that it was bought. That includes products like PC games, which can be returned even if the box has been opened as long as the contents are all there and havent been damaged or visibly worn. In the case of downloaded software there can obviously never be any damage to the returned product since you arent actually returning anything, but simply deleting the software.
Products bought in a physical store are subject to rules similar to what you describe from Germany, although its quite common for store to offer a more favorable return policy as a competetive parameter.
Reading this thread, I can see that Stardock obviously have a problem with their return policy. Some people are reporting getting a full refund with no questions asked within a day, while others share my experience of having to go into lengthy arguments. Considering the appearant admission from Stardocks CEO that they have released a product that wasn't good enough, its very puzzling that they still insist on making some of the customers asking for a refund pay a 25% fine in order to return a product that Stardock are aware is flawed. Personally, I got my refund but am disapointed at how much effort it took to get a defective product refunded and that in the end it was only due to strong consumer protection laws of my country that I was able to get it. Caveat emptor, indeed!
Yet again, Stardock proves that honesty and fair treatment are possible in game developement. I am really impressed with this kind of response from the CEO/game programmer just after the release of a game.
Yet again I find myself in the position of a big supporter of Stardock.
edit: Even though I wasn't planning on buying any games for a while due to lack of time to play anything, your post made me do it.
Cheers! Hopefully when I actually get time to play it, it will have became everything you wish it to be.
I think Stardock's beta process is part of the problem. Just to reuse the car analogy that some people used in the earlier pages, they tested the engine, the doors, the windows, the steering wheel and all that jazz separately but never had the entire car being beta tested at the same time. It seems that a lot of what broke happened when the various things were put together.
The beta process needed a game-play and mechanics beta. They tried so hard to make a "painful" beta that none of the game concepts to make things "fun" where really tested. Throwing random ingredients into a bowl and mixing them does not make a great recipe, no matter how great the individual quality of each ingredient is.
i'm totally in agreement on this and i brought it up during the beta period too but i think it would be really cool to have a turn based version of TOTAL WAR - which would basically make it like a TABLE TOP MINIATURES GAME - ala gamesworkshop games or de bellis antiquitatis.
it would be really fantastic imo, if the tactical combat played out like Hordes Of The Things (official variant on de bellis antiquitatis with rules for fantasy elements like spell casting - brad, if you've never heard of it or haven't read the rule book, i REALLY recommend that you at least gloss over it - especially if you're going to do a total redo of tactics and spells).... make the tactical really a tactical battle between entities that are larger than a single soldier... so company level battles with emphasis on things like importance of maintaining battle lines, morale and cohesion, combined arms, routing, flanking.
for me, that's interesting. homm is not so much. but that's me. whatever you come up with will have to be loved by the majority. but that's my two cents.
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anyhoo, it's good and refreshing to see a ceo just come right out and own something bad rather than try to dodge it.
especially since in almost any internet situation, you're going to get gadflies and fanboys and the fanboys will defend something to the death even if it's not worthy of defense... so it's good that you deflated an unnecessary stalemate in the community and just owned a failure (failure is valuable as they say - lessons have been bought [dearly] and learned) and committed to making it right.
jin
That would have fixed everything, period.
Hey Frogboy, nice post, I've waited this long for Elemental, I can wait a little longer. My experience thus far with Stardock has resulted in a level of trust, similar to Blizzard, Valve, ID, Unreal etc.. I see the potential in Elemental and have no problem waiting a bit longer for you to tweak this game to what we all know it can be, keep on pluggin'
IMHO
Your logic is flawed in that it fails to take into consideration the very thing you mention in your first sentence: the silliness of the human psyche.
First impression *do* matter, and can in fact be quite important. I'm quite convinced that it is *not* always in a company's best interest to release games "early", and then "complete" them later.
That's an... "interesting" observation.
I'm quite certain it is not correct, but "interesting" nonetheless...
Frog, Boogie:
Realizing ones mistakes isn't always easy, but it's a very good start to fixing them.
Publicly admitting ones mistakes is something worthy of respect.
I've been waiting for Elemental for years, and have long felt that it has tremendous potential. It's certainly unfortunate that it got the rocky start that it did, but I still fell that that potential is there, and I'm hopeful that you'll eventually be able to realize that potential. I've been waiting a long time, and I'm perfectly willing to wait a bit longer for that day.
Indeed. Especially since EVERY patch has been pirated as well with the xception of last night's 1.07. I'm sure it'll be floating around too by the weekend though.
I would like to second this point. I guess no one here - or very few others here - played Demigod. This is NOT the first time Stardock has done this to some of us and as far as I am concerned, first time shame on you, second time shame on us. So much for your gamers bill of rights?
I'm sorry if I sound upset or harsh but reading through the posts here a good majority of you are saying, well, they are a great company, this is their first real launch messup so we'll give them a pass. I just want you all to be aware of the fact THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE DONE THIS.
Personally, I think they have lost me as a customer, or at the very least they are no longer in my mind considered any better than any of the other devs out there, and they can shove their gamers bill of rights. Nice marketing ploy though.
Stardock did not develop Demigod. Nor did they, as some have tried to say, make the game's "netcode". Those of us in the beta waited for Gas Powered Games to come forward and support their game. We pleaded with GPG to help us. They didn't. Stardock came forward and took the lumps. GPG has made a career of releasing terrible games and letting someone else take the fall. I'm still waiting for my Space Siege patches and don't get me started on Supreme Commander 2.
Please steal major elements from MoM. After the coming long wait, I'll be happy if something like a MoM2 is delivered.
To my knowledge, no one has been "banned". Some particularly rude users have had their posting privileges revoked but that is not the same as a ban. And we would not revoke someone's posting privileges because just because they don't agree with us. I
We do not welcome trolls. Any reasonable person going through the forums can easily find constructive criticism of the game and of Stardock. We draw the line at "haters". There are plenty of forums on the Internet where angry people can get together and rage about how much they hate someone or something. This forum, however, is not that place.
Check your logs. Good posters were banned for saying the same things or less. I doubt all were pirates.
What is a "hater", anyways? Define "troll", please. Brad said that you guys love this game so much that it clouded your vision. If that's true, how is banning "haters" any different than banning posters "because they don't agree with us"? Couldn't you have just been honest and answered "NO", instead of giving me two paragraphs of weasel-speak? Aren't we now dealing with the new open and honest Stardock that gives its customers the truth, straight up?
I kinda want to know, so I don't risk having "my posting privleges revoked".
EDIT: Also, I hope I don't sound presumptuous calling the CEO of Stardock "Brad", as if I know him personally. I'm just trying to follow the social norms of the forum. Maybe I should stick to "Frogboy", lest I offend.
Well, surly, accusing a moderator of "weasel speak" would probably fall onto the "rude" side of things but I'm not a moderator so what do I know.
My general rule of thumb is to treat others as you would have them treat you. Think of them as if they were with you in person.
Stardock has been open and honest from the beginning (as in 1993). We try to operate as transparently as we can. On the issue of Elemental, I can only speak for myself when I say that the biggest "change" with regards to it has been being away from it long enough to stop looking at it as "my baby" and instead get enough objectivity to evaluate it as a stand-alone gaming product.
I.e. If you're emotionally attached to a product, you're too close and clearly, obviously, I was too close to it.
But I think most people would agree with me when I say that I don't want to go through a forum, any forum, full of people who seem to want to use a computer game as a medium for insulting other people.
No one was trying to "rip off" anyone. There was no malicious intent. I could go on for hours pointing out how many "bugs" in the game (from memory to crashes to performance) were related to the interaction of valid APIs being called that simply ran into an edge case with a driver/OS/graphics card combo. But that would be just making pathetic excuses for the reality that if you want to release a high profile PC game in 2010, these are the kinds of things that have to be taken into account BEFORE release and just because it worked in our QA lab doesn't change the fact that we utterly blew it on the technical end and that *I* personally blew it on the game play end.
We're not looking for unconditional acceptance. We do expect, however, civilized behavior on the forums from people.
I hope that answers your question, Surly.
Your frankness is appreciated. I only hope that yourself and the other forum mods continue giving our frankness the same consideration.
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