Sorry for the dissertation, but if you are bored while waiting for Elemental to get fixed and want to contemplate the silliness of the human psyche....
I must admit I don't understand all the anger/people saying Stardock should have delayed releasing Elemental until February 2011. It seems to me that EVERYONE is better off with the game released and in players' hands, rather than having Stardock work on it internally for another 6 months before release:
1.) Stardock
Obvious - better off cause they have people's money, and can get players to do their "beta testing", find bugs, etc. without having to pay them...big win.
2.) Players who like the game
"Fanboys" or not, there are apparently a lot of people (50%-ish in the poll, and some positive comments in the forums) who are enjoying playing the game, even if they realize it is not perfect. They are happy it is out now so they get 6 months more of enjoyment. Plus the ability to make suggestions, which means the game will be better by Feb 2011 than it would be if it was just in Stardock's hands internally...let's face it, the official beta-testing process was not, and would not have been, as intense as what is happening now that the game is released - i.e. whenever the game got released players would have a lot of complaints/suggestions, and this way they are taken care of now, rather than 6 months from now. So you get to have whatever fun you can have with the game now, PLUS have the game in better shape by next February than it would otherwise be...PLUS have Stardock feeling bad and more likely to give additional free content that they were planning on charging for going forward = big win for this group, as well.
3.) Players who hate/are frustrated by the game in current form
Okay, you hate the game. Don't play it until next February, and you are in the same place you'd be if they didn't release it until then. Only you are even BETTER off, becasue of the reasons outlined above....you at least have the chance to make suggestions, and/or have other people climbing all over the game and improving it, so it will be better this way by February 2011 than it would have been if they didn't release it until then. Plus more Stardock effort/free stuff, as above. Okay, you had to put up your $50 now. But since you were going to spend $50 next February, you didn't LOSE $50, you just lost the use of that $50 for 6 months. Left in the bank, at the current .1% interest, that "costs" you $.025 in interest (pre-tax!). That sucks, but only a little. I would think if you were going to plop down $50 in 6 months anyways, plopping down, in effect, $50.025 now to get a more-robust, fully tested and vetted game in 6 months that you can mess around with now if you feel like it (and ignore if you don't), PLUS get Stardock's extra effort to make up the problem stuff, seems like a pretty good deal. So ignore the game, come back in February, and have a better game due to the "early" release than you would have had otherwise. If losing out on the $.025 interest on your money for 6 months really annoys you, get a refund and rebuy later - annoying, but not catastrophic, especially relative to the "free look" at maybe enjoying the game now and definelty enjoying the game more once it's been refined by the rest of the public. Either way, the "pre-mature" release seems like a small win even for this group.
I understand if a company releases a game that's not ready, takes your money, and walks away...that REALLY sucks, and no one wants to support the trend of companies doing that. But no one, even those who hate the game in it's current form, appears to think Stardock is going to do that.
Feeling like you are going to get something great, and then having to wait, is annoying...but you'd have to wait if they delayed the release, too. And buying something you thought you'd like, and having to go through the hassle of getting a refund cause you need the money to buy something else to amuse yourself, is also annoying. But it also seems that the annoyance is small compared to the CHANCE to get a look at something early...you might like it..you might not like it but like the chance to help reshape it...you probably will like it more in 6 months than you would have if the release was delayed...it just seems to me that if you really THINK about it, we should ALL be glad Stardock released this game now rather than working on it internally until Febrauary of next year... Stardock wins; people who are enjoying the game now win, and even people who dislike the game in it's current format kinda win. So why the hate?!?!
...if you truly believe that they will continue to improve the game as much as they would have if they kept it internal for 6 more months, the "early" release is a GREAT thing for EVERYONE (like how the capital letters make my points so much stronger.."look, it's in capitals..must be right!"). And it gets even better if you STOP writing how much you hate the game in the forums, and let other people help improve it for you without the distraction!!
Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!
This, along with your other posts in this thread, are what I've been waiting/hoping for the last week.
Thank you for continuing to take the time to read our responses to the game, taking the criticisms seriously and in hand, and doing it all while away from the office.
Outstanding.
I read that Stardock CEO post some 7½ hours late. My jaw dropped on my French-Canadian keyboard.
In my profession (college professor), colleagues never overtly admit that they make major mistakes -- and our administrative bosses, even less.
Taking into account that I have no expertise and experience whatsoever in game design, development, production and marketing (and not taking into account that I have beta-tested Stardock games since GalCiv 1), I dare disagree with Stardock CEO Brad "Frogboy" Wardell on 2 points :
1. Official, release-date (August 24) version 1.05 was not worse than most released games (mega-rich Blizzard games excepted) -- which are full of bugs and broken features, and which are rarely patched as quickly as Stardock patches.
2. If the game had been released in February 2011, it would have been of a stellar quality. I really do not understand why Frogboy is so pessimistic, cynical, and nihilistic on that point.
I'm much more optimistic. I am absolutely confident that Elemental will become an awesome game -- way before February 2011.
(I'm not evaluating the marketing and commercial dimensions of the "problematic" August release. The situation might be less rosy there. I'm just evaluating Elemental as a great game to play during the 5 upcoming months. I shall purchase and play Civ 5, but I'm certain that Elemental will have more lasting magical appeal.)
Very obviously, needless to say :
Stardock's CEO and his whole Elemental team are extremely dedicated -- very rarely seen in the industry -- professionals.
Stardock does not have the financial muscle of Blizzard, Ubisoft, or EA. Let's not forget that very real and cold, hard fact.
I need an ETA on this trog porn.
This is important.
It's great to see that Stardock is finally realizing that Elemental has flaws, and in many cases, major issues. It is a big step to admit that you were blind to your games flaws. It will be a much bigger and more time consuming one to correct the mistake.
My issues start with the core gameplay. Obviously, I fully expect Stardock to correct technical issues, gameplay bugs, and UI issues (including far more explanations of what things actually do). For that reason, when I look upon Elemental with disappointment, I do so without any of those issues coming to mind.
I think the main issue for many of us is that Elemental is just not what we believed it was going to be. Judging by the number of comparisons, including screenshot by screenshot feature listings, I believe a lot of players were expecting a very MoM like experience from Elemental. Instead, what we've received is essentially two different human races, one with lighter skin than the other, a bunch of mundane foot soldiers who line up and hit each other until one falls over, and a spell system which is lackluster and lacking diversity. Combat is boring. Magic is boring. Without those elements being exciting, I feel like I'm playing a basic wargame. The thing is, if I wanted a wargame, I'd play one. I wanted a fantasy world of strategy and tactics where combat feels magical and I look forward to the next fight. Please, for the sake of the game, look to the past, see what games fantasy TBS fans enjoyed, and figure out why your game is just not fun to play right now. Obviously many of us are desperate to see this work out or else we'd already have moved on to something else.
I waited a while before preordering, but I still managed to get into the last few betas. I bought the LE for way more money than I ever spend on a game because I said to myself that a game like this one could last a lifetime. When I was playing the beta, I was wondering why it just didn't feel fun. I'll admit that it sucked me in one evening, up until I steamrolled every opponent on the map, but beyond that, I've had no desire to play. My LE is still sitting in the USPS box it was delivered in. Unopened. I paid all that money and am so disappointed I can't even open the box. Throughout the beta I worried, but I kept being told that the REAL game was much much better. The units have more abilities, the weapon choices matter more, etc, etc. Then I got the full game download through Impulse and it was essentially the same with an admittedly improved AI.
I'm still here and still waiting. I just hope you can deliver on your promises.
But on a serious note, I don't think I've ever seen a developer be so forthright about the state of a game on release. Molyneux admitted years later that Fable was kind of a disaster, but nothing approaching this level of honesty and self awareness. Its refreshing and promising to hear.
But yeah, about this trog porn...
Hi Brad,
I am a long time fan of SD and your values. I know you truly care and I love the types of games you are involved with e.g 4x strat games and Sins.
Yes this game is no where near ready and I had deja vu with Demigod and now Elemental. I appreciate your feedback and will continue to support SD as I know you are committed to support the game.
The big picture is that I think you have learned from your mistakes and hopefully when you remake moo or xcom there wont be these types of issues
Cheers
As a very satisfied customer of Stardock since 2001, I can assure you that Stardock will deliver on its promises. You can deposit that assurance in my Royal Bank of Canada bank.
I can answer this with certainty. Stardock has given me a 75% refund of my original pre-order. It's unfortunate that is it is only 75% because I certainly think it runs afoul with your bill of rights - linked below for convenience. I'll consider the $12-13 dollar expense the price for having faith in your ability to deliver a game of some quality.
Sadly, I simply do not care to pursue this matter further as it is not worth my time. I was displeased with the game the day it was launched and I see no reason that feeling would change anytime soon. No patch can, in my mind, fix this game in a reasonable time frame despite what others may speculate on the boards. The game is fundamentally flawed in so many ways.
I completely and absolutely regret my initial impulse several months back to pre-order this game to support you in development. It was a mistake I can assure you will not be repeated. All the best to you in meeting your commitments to your remaining customers.
http://www.gamersbillofrights.com/
Oh yes it was. The actual release version, v1.00 was buggier than the release version of Daggerfall. v1.05 helped some users a great deal, but the game remained literally unplayable on some of the most widespread hardware configurations, and I'm honestly not sure if it was possible to play a complete match without the game crashing from memory leakage on any hardware configuration. As far as releases go, it simply can't get much worse than Elemental's. Not unless we're over in something completely ludicrous like PoR2 with it's rare, but potentially HDD killing uninstall bug.
Hopefully it's because Brad realises that no amount of polish will save the game. A sizeable chunk of the game mechanics have to be redesigned from scratch for Elemental to be worth playing, at least for anyone who grok it. Under the best of circumstances, that takes huge piles of both time and money. And of course, it requires you're not blind to the problems, which Stardock evidently were (and unfortunately sound like they still are to some extent).
I'm sorry to say I'm not feeling very optimistic, but even if I was that time table is ridiculous. No offence intended.
Still, there's two things that could inspire some optimism & restore some confidence.
Firstly, I'd like to see the team post a complete list of the changes they intend to make to turn Elemental into a "fantastic game" instead of a patchwork of good ideas executed badly. And by complete list, I mean exhaustive detail. If you revise the combat mechanics, post the complete revised system so those of us who care to, can examine how and if it works. Yes, I am suggesting this because I don't believe you guys really understand what's wrong with the game.
Second, give us feedback on the feedback we'll give you if you post such a changelist, and revise your changelist if it seems necessary. I don't mean "you have to incorporate my vision of X". I just mean: prove you're paying attention, and if a whole pile of us are warning you you're heading into another game mechanics catastrophe, at least offer some sort of explanation for why you guys think we're wrong.
I'm not advocating design by committee here, but it is perfectly clear that Elemental wouldn't have been anywhere near the disaster it is, if you'd paid ANY attention to some two handfuls of the betatesters who gave you guys detailed explanations of why the game doesn't play well.
Brad,
I think the Beta community deserves a specific apology. If this was the business world you basically got your first feature complete build , i.e. Beta 1, then walked into the room with all the users who were ready for U.A.T(User Aceptance testing) and told them all to go home because they had a seat during the develpment proecss. Then you made a couple more changes, released, and now its not just you but all those users who, in this case, paid you to test your product who are in their spirit sharing the harsh criticism.
People who are competent software designers and testers in their own right who love Stardock and Impulse.
People who understood that Demigod wasn't really your fault (It was GPG's)
People who love your DRM stance.
People who love the gamers Bill of Rights.
People who thought you were truly going to listen to them throughout an extensive actual Beta process and not just let them view the development while submitting only crash reports.
People who got banned from this board for simply trying to argue that the game wasn't ready for release.
People who are very well known modders for other games who committed alot of time so they could be prepared to mod the game once it came out.
People who went onto other forums and lauded the pay to test paradigm as the best way to release bug-free, well gameplay tested, complete software at v1.0.
People who are your most loyal fans who are still here and admiring you taking personal responsibility but not owning up to your indifference to the beta testers especially as the 8/24 release got closer.
Thats why alot of us are still in this thread and still confused at your self-deprication because in a way we're incriminated by your admission of guilt and the vast majority of us did nothing wrong and in fact gave an honest critical assesment of the state of the game, the problems with gameplay and balance, and the need to have time with an actual beta, a feature complete version to test.
You didn't just fail at not being able to see your product objectively, you failed to use the objective resource you had setup specfically to give you that perspective. Alot of times companies will pay to setup a third party testing resource specifically so they can use them as a scapegoat when things go wrong. Until I see something directly addressing the Beta communty I am not just going to feel a little scapegoated I am also going to be appaled that I paid in advance for that "privelege".
This really is a royal screw up. Even if they get this game up to scratch relatively quickly the amount of bad publicity this has generated in the reviews will have long lasting damage.
It almost seems that no internal testing was done at all. The beta for the most part was untestable due to random crashes and blue-screens-of-death. There was never a beta version that had all the components enabled so the testers never got to comprehensively test AI, balance, mechanics etc. It's like they just threw a whole lot of untested code together and called it a day.
I had doubts when this was in Beta and I hope that you guys sort out this mess quick enough before people really start complaining
I did the full run-around of Stardock domains to be able to post in this thread, to completely agree with you. As one who was banned from elementalgame.com for being honest, I am appalled at the treatment the beta testers received. They were let in to provide feedback and suggestion for the game, and then they were literally ignored, some were banned, some were talked down, and worst of all, some are being refused full refunds. IMO, a disgusting corporate display shown from the bottom all the way to the very top.
So let's suppose that the book 2 dealt with magical item creation (leaving the difficult AI related issues of seafaring for book 3). So in theory it would be a new campaign, item creation, (majoy and minor) tweaks to the game mechanics (as needed), new art/graphics assests, serious boost to AI, different factions more different from each other (not Twilight of the Arnor yet though)...
You mean content like that for free for legit users of Elemental? Really? I ask because I'm not used to get expansion packs for free. Even less if they are meaty.
Posts like that are the reason i have such a respect for Stardock.
They are much more honest about thier own faults then any other dev i know.
^ THIS
I hope that before they start making changes that they come up with a plan, communicate what it is that they're planning on changing, and get some feedback before committing to those plans and investing a lot of time and resources on those changes.
Agreed. It may feel like defeat initially, but I gurantee if you step back and take a look/brainstorm it will just drive you harder to perfect the game =p Me personally; after this last patch; am having a fantastic time with the game.
I must confess I wasn't aware that people had been banned. I'm tentatively cautious because most of the time when companies that I regard as sensible businesses (ie not heartless corps like Activision) ban someone then there is a good reason... but at the same time I have also seen others apparently corroborating your version of events...
And if that is indeed the case then I'm rather appalled by it. Banning someone with legitimate criticism and then releasing the game in this state is going beyond a bad case of group think, it is getting into blatent or deliberate stupidity level!
Of course everyone makes mistakes occasionally, maybe that is what it was... in which case I imagine your ban is likely to be revoked at some point. Will be interesting to see what happens.
If the devs are still reading this I think the best way to go forward from here would be to revamp the combat system a bit.
-Make defense and attack stats per individual not per cumulative per squad.
-add a resistance stat for spell resists and spell damage reduction and reduction of effect
-make equipment actually interesting and not just a bland increase in attack & damage. Add abilities/penalties to weapons e.g. first strike, last strike, 2 hand weapon (can't use shield in combat), large shield (give a bonus against range attacks similar to MoM - only for light 1 hand weapons though, not heavy warhammers)
-add weapon skill or +hit stat to make combat rolls more interesting
-give unit types abilities e.g. thrown weapons
-Magic & spells could use some love (I'd revamp it and make it closer to MoMs style. Your sovereign should either be given a unique set of spell books or you custom choose your own. i.e. you can invest heavily in 1 or 2 schools or be a jack of all trades in multiple schools. And make each spell school unique from the others in strategy.
Believe me these changes would go a long way into making this game more fun
Demigod style equipments are actually good.
There are special abilities, passive or active. They can increase health point, defense, attack, attack speed, add dodge, critical chance, add movement speed
There are many combination. You can even get defense items that gives attack bonuses.
Your honesty and willingness to communicate with us is commendable. I think it's very brave to step up and say you were too personally involved to be able to make important decisions regarding the game. My question is, seeing as you can't undo the work you've put into the game, are you still involved in making the important decisions? As excruciatingly hard as it must be, maybe the cleanest solution would be to hand over the reigns of important decision making to a third party just for Elemental?
Yeah, the totality of that mea culpa should be stickied, at the top of the forum. It's only fair to your customers who are dissatisfied with the game, let them know their voices have been heard.
I think this has to be done. I think the productive members of the community can help with this- by playing through this game, and figuring out what parts can be kept, then working from there.
(My main issues are the warfare and magic tech trees)
I can see how painful an experience this is turning out to be for Stardock generally, and Brad in particular. Learning from this is about the only good thing that might come of it.
Why are we annoyed that the game was released early? Because some of us were beta testers (that we paid for). The beta test was badly organised, and obviously had extremely limited input into the direction the game was going in. The closest we got to a full product was beta four. Unfortunately we were told that it was a long way from the internal version of the game. It was. And the internal version was a long way from something that should have been released.
What was the point of the beta test?
Um...chief. Don't take this the wrong way, but you didn't really need Him to tell you that did you? There's plenty of us right here on the Elemental site, who have been here from the start till now, that could have told you that real easy (and some of us did...we Stressed how Not to make boring spells in a huge long spell list post). I've been either playing games, or making games, all my life, and I could have taken one look at the finished spells that made it into launch and told you "they're boring". Where are all the World Changing spells? Where are the spells that when they go off they SERIOUSLY change how the game is played? I think anyone at all who's played MoM or AoW or even LoM could have taken one look at that list and found shortcomings.
I know plenty of guys on your team have been playing those games for years. I know you've played some of those games for years. Someone should have been able to see the things the spell list was lacking. I really don't want to think you guys are loosing your imaginations. We know you don't have a problem "borrowing" ideas for mechanics from other games either. Where was the vision lost? I love Elemental both for what it is now and what we know it will become in the future, but as your friends are saying, certain aspects are boring. Probably because you kept those aspects so Simple. Simple Mechanics lead to a Simple (and boring) game. There were a lot of things planned with Elemental that got "simplified" along the way and it ended up having a drastically negative effect on the game.
The other main draw back with launch are all the bugs and imbalances. What were the people doing who were supposed to be "Play Testing" the internal build? I think any one of them (if they were being honest) could have told you both the Good and Bad aspects of the current game. You could have picked a handful of the beta testers at random and we could have told you what the game was lacking. You really don't need to turn to other people and take their opinions just because they have a position of power or are a friend of yours when you've got so many of us right here. Next time, look a little closer to home for good advice and then listen to it before it's too late .
That being said, I still love Elemental and I'm not going anywhere. I haven't seen this much potential in a game in so many years I can't remember the last game that HAD this much potential. The main thing right now is just to squash the bugs, get what's in game to work as you intended it to, then make sure it's balanced and fun and go from there. Those of us who love Stardock and love the game will stick around for that no matter how long it takes, just make sure when you need opinions on what the game's flaws might be you come to us . We might not own websites or work in the industry anymore, but many of us have been gamers, strategy gamers and D&D fans, for longer then some people have been alive.
Keep up the great work with the patches
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