Sorry for the dissertation, but if you are bored while waiting for Elemental to get fixed and want to contemplate the silliness of the human psyche....
I must admit I don't understand all the anger/people saying Stardock should have delayed releasing Elemental until February 2011. It seems to me that EVERYONE is better off with the game released and in players' hands, rather than having Stardock work on it internally for another 6 months before release:
1.) Stardock
Obvious - better off cause they have people's money, and can get players to do their "beta testing", find bugs, etc. without having to pay them...big win.
2.) Players who like the game
"Fanboys" or not, there are apparently a lot of people (50%-ish in the poll, and some positive comments in the forums) who are enjoying playing the game, even if they realize it is not perfect. They are happy it is out now so they get 6 months more of enjoyment. Plus the ability to make suggestions, which means the game will be better by Feb 2011 than it would be if it was just in Stardock's hands internally...let's face it, the official beta-testing process was not, and would not have been, as intense as what is happening now that the game is released - i.e. whenever the game got released players would have a lot of complaints/suggestions, and this way they are taken care of now, rather than 6 months from now. So you get to have whatever fun you can have with the game now, PLUS have the game in better shape by next February than it would otherwise be...PLUS have Stardock feeling bad and more likely to give additional free content that they were planning on charging for going forward = big win for this group, as well.
3.) Players who hate/are frustrated by the game in current form
Okay, you hate the game. Don't play it until next February, and you are in the same place you'd be if they didn't release it until then. Only you are even BETTER off, becasue of the reasons outlined above....you at least have the chance to make suggestions, and/or have other people climbing all over the game and improving it, so it will be better this way by February 2011 than it would have been if they didn't release it until then. Plus more Stardock effort/free stuff, as above. Okay, you had to put up your $50 now. But since you were going to spend $50 next February, you didn't LOSE $50, you just lost the use of that $50 for 6 months. Left in the bank, at the current .1% interest, that "costs" you $.025 in interest (pre-tax!). That sucks, but only a little. I would think if you were going to plop down $50 in 6 months anyways, plopping down, in effect, $50.025 now to get a more-robust, fully tested and vetted game in 6 months that you can mess around with now if you feel like it (and ignore if you don't), PLUS get Stardock's extra effort to make up the problem stuff, seems like a pretty good deal. So ignore the game, come back in February, and have a better game due to the "early" release than you would have had otherwise. If losing out on the $.025 interest on your money for 6 months really annoys you, get a refund and rebuy later - annoying, but not catastrophic, especially relative to the "free look" at maybe enjoying the game now and definelty enjoying the game more once it's been refined by the rest of the public. Either way, the "pre-mature" release seems like a small win even for this group.
I understand if a company releases a game that's not ready, takes your money, and walks away...that REALLY sucks, and no one wants to support the trend of companies doing that. But no one, even those who hate the game in it's current form, appears to think Stardock is going to do that.
Feeling like you are going to get something great, and then having to wait, is annoying...but you'd have to wait if they delayed the release, too. And buying something you thought you'd like, and having to go through the hassle of getting a refund cause you need the money to buy something else to amuse yourself, is also annoying. But it also seems that the annoyance is small compared to the CHANCE to get a look at something early...you might like it..you might not like it but like the chance to help reshape it...you probably will like it more in 6 months than you would have if the release was delayed...it just seems to me that if you really THINK about it, we should ALL be glad Stardock released this game now rather than working on it internally until Febrauary of next year... Stardock wins; people who are enjoying the game now win, and even people who dislike the game in it's current format kinda win. So why the hate?!?!
...if you truly believe that they will continue to improve the game as much as they would have if they kept it internal for 6 more months, the "early" release is a GREAT thing for EVERYONE (like how the capital letters make my points so much stronger.."look, it's in capitals..must be right!"). And it gets even better if you STOP writing how much you hate the game in the forums, and let other people help improve it for you without the distraction!!
Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!
Speechless
I really don't think so. Elemental is a pile of conceptually fantastic parts of a game, not a fantastic game. Building cities piecemeal on the actual map is a great idea. Using hands-on dynasties instead of various government techs in a fantasy 4X is pure awesomesauce. The inclusion of tactical TB combat, even if it's the severely limited un-wargame-like HoMM kind (HoMM-likes are a distant second to real wargame mechanics to me), is brilliant - and the list goes on. All the individual bits are fantastic, conceptually. But the game mechanics are almost ideally unsuited to each and every one of the those could-have-been fantastic bits. Just about the only thing in the game that plays well, is the tech tree - if you ignore tech resource & UI problems, that is.
Yes, there's a ton of polish-pass & GUI type problems too, and while those also need fixing, fixing them alone won't make Elemental play well.
I think it's a sign for you to do something. More specifically, do something about these forums. Because they are just about the sluggiest forums I have ever come across
- Have a great vacation, and when you come back, bring a notebook & take a week to trawl through the threads about the problematic game mechanics before you start making plans for Elemental. Because as mentioned earlier, I don't think you & your minions understand what the problem is, and you can't fix it until you do.
I'd honestly like the Tactical Battles to include SOME War-game concepts and SOME RPG concepts as-needed.
I'd like to stay away from the battle concepts of HOMM or E:WoM Launch as much as possible.
Hopefully the tactical battles of E:WoM launch and E:WoM "Upgraded" are COMPLETELY different genres of Tac Battles.
Mostly porn. Think Trog porn.
So, wait - Book 2 is going to add The Trog as a new playable race to the game?
Hmmm, this is an interesting turn.
I don't want to play the table, but since my last two games(out of about five and one stab at the campaign) I could tell I wasn't getting much enjoyment out of it. I could tell the game as it is wasn't what you meant.(I actually returned to an old SoaSE Advent save for a satisfying and utter defeat of the Vasari in the System of War map on Hard. That was fun!!)
I mentioned in an earlier post that I was surprised by the constant level of involvement with no substantial break from it, but I can definitely see where you were just totally in it, immersed and confident. Honest mistake.
These admissions must be hard because you have basically said here is my crime, here is my guillotine, I sentence myself, and here, I'll punish myself. Now the blade is in motion.
Very exciting and interesting, and admirable however unenviable.
My main interest in Elemental was the prospect of the big epic fantasy setting, and stories that could result from the gameplay. The world looked like it was meant to tap into the players imagination, and your hard choices made story-like events happen.
I have tried to glean this but my last couple games made it hard to find any kind of story elements. Not to say that isn't still possible.
Also as Nick-Danger pointed out in various posts; there was a chance to avoid this result at the end of beta, so I now choose to keep my head low as an outsider.
While I mean no disrespect to people who feel cheated, nor do I thrive off the suffering of the Elemental Team, and likely make myself look like a sucker in the process; I wouldn't miss this chance to see the workings of a company of games I enjoy, and who makes themselves available to their fans through success and failure equally.
From everything I've seen, read, and played this pretty much sums it up. I also feel like maybe you guys got so caught up in not making MoM 2 that you made some choices about things based on that and not because they were actually good ideas. (Which is especially a shame since a massive chunk of your audience wants MoM 2)
I think there are core game mechanics and AI that will have to be revisited. I think there are things that would normally be reserved for sequels that will have to be put in.
That is exactly what I wanted to hear. I was afraid we'd only see (other than bug fixing) some small balance and polishing efforts, the kind of things that could be done with mods. Glad to hear that you guys won't shy away from changing some of the base systems. Conceptually Elemental is great, the fluff is good, taking back a ruined land etc. But some of the mechanics, the part that really makes a game a game needs reconsidering.
See that's actually the kind of thing that's extremely forgivable to me. I look at errors like that and wince as well, not at your coders but at the mishmash of hardware and drivers that make up PC gaming. The fact that we as an industry and a platform still have not figured out a way to properly update peoples drivers. It's unreasonable to expect every game developer everywhere to test on every conceivable array of hardware and driver version configuration.
To all those who plan on getting a refund, make sure you have everything ready up front.
This means the game's serial number, your hardware and OS specs, descriptions of the problems and how to reproduce, a .zip containing all the logs produced by the SDSupportTool.exe, and maybe a few of the .zip files found in C:\ProgramData\Stardock\Elemental - War of Magic that follow this format:
Elemental1_06-2010-08-27T15-44-05-132.zip
The support team will stall as long as possible on a full refund, often offering the 75% option as a quick fix, but be consistent and insist that you want the full refund. It isn't as easy and quick as others say. The game is obviously broken technically and I've posted a few times about my issues but I'm still being asked for logs and such by tech support, who clearly do not want to approve my refund.
You have to register it on Impulse to get updates. So, anybody with a registered copy. Seems pretty easy.
I have to agree here. I've got some ideas here also.
In a way, it might be better if what should be done is brainstormed before working on gameplay changes.
One other suggestion: for the base game, each kingdom/empire gets an affinity to one of the five tech branches, either a research bonus, unique techs, or more effective versions of buildings.
Relias might get better caravans and embassies, Procinipee better arcane labs, Carrodus better training on units, Markinn better use of resources, and Irane better adventurers and adventurers guilds. As an example. (would need balancing out)
Strange, I know 2 people that asked for a refund in the last 9 hours without problems... I don't want to say I do not believe you, mind me!
Just Strange.
I can confirm some people are getting given the runaround on refunds. Some are getting them no questions asked. Shrug.
Brad,
Please never lose your passion and love for the games you make. You've recognized what went wrong here, but don't let that destroy your subjective relationship to said games. It can't all be about management. Hitting the right balance in life is hard for everyone. I am probably more excited about Elemental's future now than I was a year ago. Have a nice time with your family and take care.
-Jeff
[A ...] I am a professional software developer, and part time game designer, and I can tell you that I wouldn't release something like this for free, much less for money. It would ruin my reputation. [...]
[B] I am infuriated that it was released in a state that isn't even good enough to be classified as beta. This is an alpha release through and through.
Statement [B] makes us doubt the truthfulness of statement [A].
(I participated in the Elemental betas since their very beginning. The official, release-date (August 24) version 1.05 didn't appear to me to be an alpha or a beta. But then, who am I to judge ? I'm not a "professional software developer, and part time game designer"...)
Yes the game needs some work. But I've spent more money on worse things, so bleh. I have fun with it. And Will give it time to get better.
That was brutal self honesty by Brad.
I've followed you since the csipgs days. Recently, seeing your reactions to criticism regarding Elemental has been painful. I had wondered if you had succumbed to "swelled head syndrome" in which so many successful developers get caught up, and wreck themselves and their reputations.
But today, with your comments here, I am reminded just WHY it is that your postings stood out, even all those years ago. It was the passion you displayed. It was self-evident. And vital. And I'm glad to see you still have it. Now I see it was not hubris, but your passion that blinded you regarding Elemental. That's a far more palatable take on things.
Thanks for the honesty in your assessment of the situation. It's a brave man that looks at his mistakes and points them out so publicly. It's an ethical man that vows to make them right. You've shown all those here in this thread. Kudos.
Warren
I bought it a day before release and I got a refund with no problems.
I didn't include any info in the email (other than my name and username), and I got a full refund.
Rubbish. There were literally hundreds of posts suggesting stardock hold back their release date because it was patently obvious that it wasn't going to be ready on time.
I signed up for the beta and was quite disappointed but patient through most of the various stages as I regularly CTD after a few dozen turns at best. Many other testers seemed to have a similar experience. At about beta 4 the game was more stable (but still had the dx error and occasional lock-ups) but there seemed very little to do except fight and walk over other sovereigns. I would have thought that this would be where the interesting testing began but I has very surprised when it has announced Elemental had a 8-24 release and the beta was finished! I thought perhaps that there was some other parallel work on the real game with well-developed magic and game concepts that was being saved for the release but I was really disappointed again when V1.0 was very little advanced from Beta 4. I had read the "wait until you see it" notes in the forum and I still couldn't understand what happened.
After the Frogboy notes today, I can only imagine that the developers cherry-picked the comments during the beta process and ignored most of the complaints. Almost all of the criticism post-release had already been given during the betas. The professional reviews merely repeat items from the beta forums. There were no surprises. The beta experience could/should have been the driver toward the excellent game Elemental might have been.
SO - what to do, Sift through the forums - see what the repeated themes are - re-build the game using that as input.
My own 2 cents - the game is bland:
It needs more interesting magic - crazy powerful spells a la MOM. You know the "Whoa" moment when it kicks in. Weapons need variety, special powers not just different stats, I like the city building concept but it needs to avoid "the all cities get the same building problem" - more specialization by race/ location or whatever. I really would like the city/soldier build finish announcements to be more obvious like galciv2. The UI needs re-arranging. Quests and goodies huts are repetitous. The graphics need to be more varied - everything seems dark and gloomy - I looked at Mucha's work. He had a lightness lacking in Elemental - I could go on.
I'm still hopeful and still waiting for that 21st century MOM successor.
I think Froboy's reply (#45) here is important and I only found it linked through another thread. A statement like that should be an independent post and not embedded as a reply in a post. I'm not saying he's trying to hide it, just saying I think it's simple, straight forward, honest, and blunt; I appreciate and respect that, I think everybody else in the forums would appreciate knowing it's there as well.
I'm thinking the vacation was probably a good thing. It's probably allowed you time to reflect on the situation due to your limited connection. Had you been home, it's likely you would have reacted by doing more coding and not come to the realization you have now as to the state of the game. You should focus on the rest of your vacation, spend time with your wife.
When you get back, take your team out to dinner. I'm sure they could use the appreciation after this week. Having people critique your work, good or bad, deserved or not, takes a lot out of you.
Speaking of your team, watching the credits, was it as small as it looked? I was really surprised as I expected to see more names listed for the development of the game. Do you really have the capacity to implement the level of changes you're implying? It's not like you have another 3 years to redo this game. Time isn't a luxury you really have right now as the clock is ticking, customers are unhappy, and the longer it takes to fix the game, the more people you're going to disappoint and/or alienate as customers.
+1
I wish these forums had a dev tracker like others.
Thanks Brad. Please play MoM and heroes of might and magic. Even games like shogan total war have really cool things that make the generals aka heroes unique. Do stuff like that!
Thanks Brad. Please play MoM and heroes of might and magic. Even games like shogan total war have really cool things that make the generals aka heroes unique. Do stuff like that! Also, look at MoM's magic system. Its incredible to this day
Make the tactical combat DEEP. Make the heroes DEEP. Play your game then play MOM then play your game. Play empire total war, play your game. Thanks brad for being straight with us
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