Sorry for the dissertation, but if you are bored while waiting for Elemental to get fixed and want to contemplate the silliness of the human psyche....
I must admit I don't understand all the anger/people saying Stardock should have delayed releasing Elemental until February 2011. It seems to me that EVERYONE is better off with the game released and in players' hands, rather than having Stardock work on it internally for another 6 months before release:
1.) Stardock
Obvious - better off cause they have people's money, and can get players to do their "beta testing", find bugs, etc. without having to pay them...big win.
2.) Players who like the game
"Fanboys" or not, there are apparently a lot of people (50%-ish in the poll, and some positive comments in the forums) who are enjoying playing the game, even if they realize it is not perfect. They are happy it is out now so they get 6 months more of enjoyment. Plus the ability to make suggestions, which means the game will be better by Feb 2011 than it would be if it was just in Stardock's hands internally...let's face it, the official beta-testing process was not, and would not have been, as intense as what is happening now that the game is released - i.e. whenever the game got released players would have a lot of complaints/suggestions, and this way they are taken care of now, rather than 6 months from now. So you get to have whatever fun you can have with the game now, PLUS have the game in better shape by next February than it would otherwise be...PLUS have Stardock feeling bad and more likely to give additional free content that they were planning on charging for going forward = big win for this group, as well.
3.) Players who hate/are frustrated by the game in current form
Okay, you hate the game. Don't play it until next February, and you are in the same place you'd be if they didn't release it until then. Only you are even BETTER off, becasue of the reasons outlined above....you at least have the chance to make suggestions, and/or have other people climbing all over the game and improving it, so it will be better this way by February 2011 than it would have been if they didn't release it until then. Plus more Stardock effort/free stuff, as above. Okay, you had to put up your $50 now. But since you were going to spend $50 next February, you didn't LOSE $50, you just lost the use of that $50 for 6 months. Left in the bank, at the current .1% interest, that "costs" you $.025 in interest (pre-tax!). That sucks, but only a little. I would think if you were going to plop down $50 in 6 months anyways, plopping down, in effect, $50.025 now to get a more-robust, fully tested and vetted game in 6 months that you can mess around with now if you feel like it (and ignore if you don't), PLUS get Stardock's extra effort to make up the problem stuff, seems like a pretty good deal. So ignore the game, come back in February, and have a better game due to the "early" release than you would have had otherwise. If losing out on the $.025 interest on your money for 6 months really annoys you, get a refund and rebuy later - annoying, but not catastrophic, especially relative to the "free look" at maybe enjoying the game now and definelty enjoying the game more once it's been refined by the rest of the public. Either way, the "pre-mature" release seems like a small win even for this group.
I understand if a company releases a game that's not ready, takes your money, and walks away...that REALLY sucks, and no one wants to support the trend of companies doing that. But no one, even those who hate the game in it's current form, appears to think Stardock is going to do that.
Feeling like you are going to get something great, and then having to wait, is annoying...but you'd have to wait if they delayed the release, too. And buying something you thought you'd like, and having to go through the hassle of getting a refund cause you need the money to buy something else to amuse yourself, is also annoying. But it also seems that the annoyance is small compared to the CHANCE to get a look at something early...you might like it..you might not like it but like the chance to help reshape it...you probably will like it more in 6 months than you would have if the release was delayed...it just seems to me that if you really THINK about it, we should ALL be glad Stardock released this game now rather than working on it internally until Febrauary of next year... Stardock wins; people who are enjoying the game now win, and even people who dislike the game in it's current format kinda win. So why the hate?!?!
...if you truly believe that they will continue to improve the game as much as they would have if they kept it internal for 6 more months, the "early" release is a GREAT thing for EVERYONE (like how the capital letters make my points so much stronger.."look, it's in capitals..must be right!"). And it gets even better if you STOP writing how much you hate the game in the forums, and let other people help improve it for you without the distraction!!
Stardock - KEEP releasing games early, AS LONG AS YOU WORK HARD TO SUPPORT THEM AFTER RELEASE, we all win that way!!!!!!
If spending the next year fixing Elemental instead of developing another game isn't putting his money where his mouth is, then I don't know what is. I've heard the complaints about getting the returns. That's an issue for Stardock customer service. I would be surprised if anyone who really wants a refund doesn't get one, even if they might have to jump through a few hoops. (Not that I'm excusing the hoops.) But c'mon now, not too many other software companies do the refund thing anyway. I've got piles of crappy software on my shelf that I was never able to get to run, and was never able to get a refund, either. (I'm looking at you, Temple of Elemental Evil . . .)
Undoubtedly, there are going to be some who are not going to be satisfied, no matter what. But for the rest of us, time to move on. It's just $50, and it's just a game.
I'm all for ambition, but aiming for GOTY over Starcraft 2 is just...well...just rediculous. Civ 5, maybe, unlikely but maybe. Starcraft 2 however, not a chance.
It's basically THE strategy game of the last 10 years, nevermind just this year. You just don't find that kind of refinement and polish anywhere outside of Blizzard. Ok, maybe Valve and Bioware, but certainly nowhere else.
Stardock's games are niche, and I love them for that, but theres no doubt about who the giants are. Starcraft 2 is a perfect example of a game gone right, no one element is lacking. Hell, it's even fairly balanced right out of the gate thanks to the 3 months beta (which I enjoyed) and some 16 patches.
Anyway, to Brad I say this :-
You've eaten enough crow my man, and garnered my respect (and many others to be sure) once again. Now's the time to suck it up and turn on the magic. If you and the Stardock peeps can turn Elemental from what it is into something akin to the current state of Gal Civ 2, redemption won't even be the word for it.
Good Luck fellas, you have my support and as I have more time to play the game I will try and give some constructive feedback.
P.S Also, you win big points for the "first expansion free to early owners" bit. If that isn't dedication to improving the gamer's experience, I don't know what is.
Don't forget Age of Wonders, man! Especially given your own work on the excellent 1.4 community patch (and the one you guys are working on now).
Casting influence is a really neat idea making you either build city improvements to expand said influence or truck your wizard (same as Elemental's sovereign) or caster heroes there to do world enchants.
Item forging requiring a long build path in a "specialist" city versus just having it off the bat as in MoM (and highly overpowered with runemaster and artificer).
Flexible build path for heroes depending on their class insofar as special abilities.
Destructible city walls/gates and spells to reinforce and repair said! Actually making siege weapons useful is HUGE!
Specialized temples (with speciific benefits to the host city) which determine your quests AND spirits that you can piss off by either failing said quests or by courting another spirit in another city
Three separate "worlds" that were harsh on non-specialist units (underground had sight and pathing issues, shadow world damage non-attuned units) or those without the proper protective spells
Watch towers that could be captured to give a pretty big visibility radius and be guarded by troops just like cities
City ruins that could be rebuilt by proper engineer units
Multipurpose spells! Divine storm hurts evil units *AND* regrows the land underneath!
Promotable units... there are way less potential ranks in AoW (2 vs. MoM's maximum of 5 if you have warlord and the crusade spell up) but the first time you get a dragon hatchling to turn into full blow gold dragon, you'll be hooked.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head, but the point is that while MoM is the gold standard of fantasy TBS, there are other games that have a LOT to offer.
What a pathetic post. Imagine if the real world worked that way..."Oh don't worry about the fact it's a wreck, it's not like it's our only job in the world to get this right." Patches are released to tweak performance and level faction ability. This dev team must be sweating bullets after a disaster like this. It can't even run for more than 20 minutes without crashing. I've basically got the best PC in the world, latest drivers and have patched this game up and it still craps out constantly. And to have one mini-Act as the campaign?!? Hilarious.
@ Eiralin : You're right, there are many good ideas in the AoW series too that can be used to enhance Elemental. I generally think that "borrowing" good ideas from other games is good, in this case it would be MoM, AoW, HoMM, FFH etc.
Why not just refund those who want it if its "just 50$" ?
I know its not a lot of money, but as a matter of principle it should be refunded to anyone that asks for it and without making them jump through hoops in order to get it.
Then bring it up with Stardock customer service. I'm not going to bother defending Stardock's return policies; whether they have some hoops or not is really none of my concern. I can understand why some people want to get a refund. That's fine, go for it, get it, complain to their customer service or PM Brad (preferably without the death wishes) if you don't like whatever hoops that may or may not exist - and move on. As far as I'm concerned, the people who have requested the refund or who are so concerned about the refund have voluntarily relinquished their stake in Elemental. I hope that those who want refunds now will consider re-purchasing Elemental when Stardock gets it squared away. But in the meantime, Stardock's concern should be on getting the game right - and as a gamer, that's what I want as well. Complaining about a refund policy which doesn't work perfectly is completely unhelpful to getting anything useful done.
Looking at your posts, it is clear that you are bitter about how Stardock is handling your refund request. (This explains why you completely ignored the substance of my first post on this thread, and only focused on your refund complaint.) Fine. I can see why you feel that way. But it isn't productive in regards to fixing the game, offering ideas to make it better, and everything that those of us who want to see the game perfected are doing.
In short - concerns about the refund policy are not constructive at all to the goal of fixing the game. I doubt that anything other than getting a refund will satisfy you, and I expect that you will complain about it until you receive one. Going after other gamers on the forum isn't going to get you your refund.
I get your point: Keep complaints out of the public space. Refer them to emailing support, PMing Brad and so on. Why is it not okay to write about it in public where everyone can see it? Don't potential buyers of the game have the right to have this piece of information as well? This forum is full of posts where people that are unsatisfied are told to shut up and write to sales@stardock.com for a refund. So its pretty relevant to make sure everyone knows that this isn't as easy as that.
Just because you don't want a refund and as a consequence of that is not affected, it doesn't mean others can't mention it. You do not have a monopoly on defining what is productive, important or relevant. Going after unsatisfied customers on the forums and bashing them is not going to get you a better game.
This is, to say the least, an unusual thing to hear from a CEO in this cut throat world, and you are to be applauded for it.
It requires a significant suspension of disbelief to accept that your company genuinely thought this game was ready, but you do a fair job of winning over the crowd.
That said, fair speeches are only so good.
What speaks is action. Give people who want their money back a full refund, and it will be clear you mean what you say both here, and in your bill of rights, and in all your other statements.
Without that, something is missing.
I'm still waiting for my 100% refund. Elemental came out ~2.5 weeks ago. I've been dealing with support for a week. We are now some 4 patches in and the game still crashes on me every time I play it. According to previous journals and various posts, the game developers now appear to want to completely rewrite the game to fix the primitive AI, address the horrendous mechanics and hopefully make a bland game semi-interesting. In other words, another year plus before the game, as it should have been released, will be available. I am not waiting another year or more for these issues to actually be fixed so the game can, first, play without issues and second, be enjoyable. I am not paid to do QA for Stardock, nor do I pay them to QA their products until they work (what a ludicrous idea).
Regarding the early betas, the entire pay-to-test paradigm obviously won't work if the company is not willing to actually listen and act upon the feedback generated by the program. Fanboys will throw their money at the company and laud anything given to them. Moreover, fans are going to be the dominant majority in any beta program, so a positive feedback loop is inevitable. The moral hazard is that the fanboys will be heard above the sensible complaints and suggestions of serious contributers who don't have an irrational loyalty to the company. The fact that the serious contributers have no refund recourse when they vocalize their concerns only to be ignored is just rubbing salt into an already gaping and painful wound.
Claiming emotional ties to the game blinded one to the truth is just an easy cop out and I don't buy it. It is an insult to everyone's intelligence when the proof is there that the game wasn't ready and everyone knew it.
I just want my money back for this game. I'm giving Stardock the chance to make it right by actually going through them to get the refund because they have a refund policy and a so called gamer's bill of rights. They purport to stand behind their software and give you your money back if it does not work as it should or was intended. Customer service goes hand in hand with loyalty and brand recognition. Customer service is not releasing a game in an unplayable state and patching it over the course of a year until it is playable, and then patching it for another year to make it fun and in line with the original marketing vision. That is stringing morons along. In any other circumstance, I would just initiate a chargeback through the credit card company, citing the technical support emails and forums (which I am close to doing here). However, I want Stardock to give the refund, if only for the fact it will give me minor satisfaction in their acknowledgement to me that they screwed up. Unfortunately, the only thing I have seen so far from the technical support staff is a tendency to procrastinate until the next patch comes out, followed by a "Did that fix it?" and the obvious hope you will go away or take the easy 75% refund option so Stardock at least gets to keep some of your hard earned money. F that. I want ALL of my money back.
Hey dude, you replied to my post. You are right, of course, that you are perfectly free to complain about the refund policy. I'm also pretty certain that there are threads dedicated to the topic of the refund problems. Like here. I don't think that every thread needs to have it rehashed. I also suspect that the majority of those who are a) aware of this forum and want to get a refund, already know.
IMO, I'd love to see you get a refund. 100%. But it isn't my call. And I don't know what Stardock has to gain from giving you a refund (which they seem to indicate in your thread doesn't apply to you. I take no position, and I'm not going to parse the Gamer's Bill of Rights, other than to point out that my opinon is that it is not a legally binding document) because what are you going to do if they give you a refund? Praise Stardock? Buy games from them in the future? Or is it too late? They can't please everyone. I'm just not sure what you hope to gain here. Again, let me reiterate: if it were my decision, you would get the refund. But it isn't, hence my advice to PM Brad. Now, if you are not looking for a solution, but to complain, then as you were. But I don't think we're getting anywhere.
If you only knew how much criticism there was being directed at them during the "beta" you might rethink that. They totally hosed the beta community, were being blamed for everything from ultra fanboism to complete stupidity when its about 99% them not listening to us. i am still waiting for Brad to specifically and loudly address that point. Whats even more amazing is I paid for this to happen. Read my other posts in this thread.
If he doesn't address this I am never ever giving SD money in advance just so I can be blamed for their failings, and I bet alot of others feel the same way. Notice in all his posts he has done nothing to remove any blame from the beta community and were getting reamed here, on QTT, on ThreeMovesAhead, and probably alot more places, suddenly its our fault.
That's not good enough for you?
I've got a question: if you pre-ordered, you have the beta, and Stardock is going to make it right, why do you really care whether SD calls this "release" or not? I did beta for GCII:Dark Avatar, and I really didn't care when they called it beta or when they called it a release. To me, it was just another patch. Actually, it added to the replay value when they respun the economy. It was a new game.
If I'm in their shoes and coming from the experience of GCII:DA, I would think the online community wouldn't really care much what's in a name. Beta, release, whatever...it's just a patch. However, the retail outlets need something now. So I'm going to release a little early and then patch it ASAP. Now, I could see the gripe in that you pre-ordered, plunked down $50(!), and wait forever--and then I finally promise you a release date, and that release date was not met. That's a problem, but it seems a little overblown.
Just an honest question. I didn't even pre-order. I really don't know why my gut said GCII beta would be awesome and Elemental's beta wouldn't.
I figure people have an issue with calling this release cause:
1) As much as Brad is passionate about the game, there is no guarantee that SD will be in the financial position to fix all of the issues with this game given it's current state. In the end, if this isn't SD's bread and butter (and Brad has said that it isn't), then you can't expect it to be their #1 priority.
2) "Pre-ordering" at many companies, means putting down your name, or at most $5-$10, then paying the balance on release. If I pay the balance for a multiplayer game that doesn't include multiplayer, I'd be annoyed.
3) Games that CTD on a large % of machines are unnacceptible in this day and age. Yes, I understand SD is a small shop, but c'mon, engine issues such as this should have been resolved well before final beta. Final beta should be game polish and balance. Nothing else. The fact that major features (e.g. shards / multiplayer) were not complete, balance issues still abound, CTD's still occurred, and polishing wasn't apparently completed is just unacceptable in a AAA priced game. I can put up with any/all of the above for a $20-$30 game, but if you are going to charge me the same amount as a Civ / SC2, then it better be the same quality of game.
In all fairness, I joined the forum a month before release, and I eventually pre-ordered the game (too late to get in the beta anyway). I did witness A LOT of worried comments posted by beta testers.
The usual answer was that they couldn't judge since they didn't have the full game. Which was weird.
What's clear at this point is that NOBODY apparently ever played even once with the full game, because if anyone had, issues as basic as those with the AI would have screamed in his face. The issues are SO big that even the lack of a map generator (!) becomes "secondary" and it's almost forgotten.
Now, I've personally made the decision to stick with the game and Stardock. I'll do other things and wait to play a proper version of the game. But I know there's no certainty at this point: it might take months of waiting, and it can turn out that the game is beyond fixing (no, I don't think that's the case). Basically, it's a bit of a gamble. I can accept the risk since we're not talking millions, and I wish to support Stardock, if only for the willingness to take chances with a game of this kind.
Still, I can understand the frustration of some players, especially those who were in the Beta and who did try to give all kinds of warnings.
There was some mystical internal 'Beta 5' that only Stardock had access to and completely redid the UI, and some other stuff. That was never properly beta-tested, which is a shame indeed.
You asked the question "What more can you ask for?" and I replied to that question. You disagree with the answer, so now it's my fault for answering your question. If you don't want people answering your questions, don't ask them!
Dude
thats completely false
for me games are only worth if i can play with or against my friends
single players dont exist, i do play and i do enjoy sometimes but thats not what i *seek*
also i only play games with a strong community
bad release means less interest, and ppl moving forward, also we all know civ is coming out and most of the modders, most of the players, most of the community will move there
thats the objective reason why a bad release is bad, stop denying it and accept it
What a sad state of affairs. Anyway, I know that I will be happy once Elemental *is* fixed, however long that takes. Shit, I've waited for it this long, I can wait another year.
I still prefer a company that has ambition and shit execution to most other big companies which are all execution and NO ambition, safe as hell God of War ripoff-factories.
I think given the back and forth between the dissatisfied and the fans ...
The PC UK Gamer "don't buy our games" and subsequent retraction ...
Brad saying on page 4 of this thread ... game isn't ready, he was too close to realize the work it needed ...
and the resultant financial impact costing 20 Stardock Employees their jobs
that releasing games that aren't ready to the % of fans patient enough to put up with unreadiness for 2+ years is not a sustainable business plan.
I'm old school and have seen many great games ship still needing a bit of work. Many shipped as generally balanced, generally playable ... 2 F's on Metaciritic from fans and critics confirm that most think this game is not generally balanced/playable /fun
The silliness of the human psyche, perfect. Ask those who just got canned about "all of us winning"
I'm a pro software dev too and I don't fully agree. It's not a development decision, it's a business decision. Wasn't the release date already pushed way back? At some point you have to stop your development to bring some cash flow in. Perhaps they could have done a better job of prioritizing more critical aspects to make the game more complete, but try not to be such a pessimist and give them a chance to react to customer feedback for patches. It's easy to be a sideline critic.
And if you're really a pro software dev why are you complaining about a measly $50 that "you could have spent on Starcraft 2"? Go buy it now, what's the problem? Worried about the 10 cents in interest you're losing on having that $50 for a few more months?
Despite stinging a bit now, I'm viewing Elemental as a gaming investment. The way I see it, I just bought a game with a free expansion coming, maybe even 2, and one that I know for a fact will be worked upon and updated.
Ok, so I can't have much fun with it now, but there's hardly a gaming drought on at the moment. Plus I think it's kinda interesting following the feedback and stuff, watching how it all influences what's gonna happen with the patches, etc.
I've bought more expensive and far more useless things than Elemental in the past let's put it that way.
While I am dissapointed with the state of the game at launch, I still see the game reaching it's potential, and I don't regret buying the game. It's not the only game thats had problems at launch, it's one of many, the differance is that Brad and Stardock truely appear to care and listen to feedback and customers. Definately could have done with longer beta to work out the game mechanics.
Another game I recently pre-ordered I can't say the same about..Supreme Commander 2. That game was also a big letdown at launch..and don't see any chance of it being resurected at this point...don't see GPG admitting they made mistakes, let alone offering 100% refunds or a free expansion.
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