First some background.
Like everyone on this forum, I played the hell out of, and love, Master of Magic.
I've been waiting forever for a proper sequel that would do it justice, but sadly none has come out to date.
When I heard about Elemental, I was very hopeful, and indeed the game looked promising.
After following its development for months, I caved in to my urge and bought the digital download on the first day.
For the next few days I had played straight from when I got home from work until 3 in the morning, neglecting the fact that I still have to go to work when the sun comes up.
My thoughts so far?
The game shows lots of potential, especially with the mod community, but as it stands right now, I am disappointed.
It's bug ridden and unbalanced.
Without a question, its release was premature.
Honestly, if there wasn't such an uproar about this fact, it could very well be dismissed as a few disappointed opinions.
I've decided to stop playing and wait for the game to reach a state where I can enjoy it more.
With that said, here are a few elements from Master of Magic (missing from Elemental) that would make Elemental far more enjoyable for me and, I hope, the majority of you.
Regardless of whether they're done through mods or patches, as long as they're in, I would play the sh*t out of this game!
Unique and interesting abilities, remember how fun these were?
Items were a lot more exciting.
Remember when you got that 1 item that was chock full of stats and it totally blew your mind?
Ranged magic attack and magic resistance are well understood, units really should be allowed ranged non physical default attacks.
Fame affected how frequently some random events took place - merchants, mercenaries, heroes.
Remember the random merchant bringing you awesome gear?
What happened to races, racial properties, and race specific units?
Well, thats about all I have for now.
I for one really miss these essential elements in what was supposed to be the spiritual successor to MOM.
I hope they'll be added to Elemental someday.
Let me know what you guys think.
I dont think copyright covers stuff like spells. Names and description? Yes. Art? Yes. Effects themself and concepts? No.
They dont have to make all of the spells in MOM or even all the abilities, all they have to do is copy enough from MOM and then give us the framework to work with so that we can do the rest.
That way we can all have our sequal to MOM but Microprose wont be able to say a single thing since it was done by a loyal fan base.
I'm likely in the minority, but I -like- that spells and magic aren't common place and thrown around like water in the ocean. I like that using a nuke spell in combat is a balance between the long term and short term. I like that there aren't loads and loads of high powered spells that basically turn non-casters into meatshields. Frankly, I'm tired of magic trivializing everything else in the game as if you have a guy that every other unit is based around... that's just boring and uninteresting. I like my magic to be mysterious and wondrous not the fantasy equivalent of a 100 ton battle mech fighting infantry armed with rocks.
Now this isn't to say magic is currently 'okay'. It isn't. But I'd rather see magic get turned into support and 'subtle' effects rather than nuke 'em till they glow. I'd rather see more of people with magical abilities rather than magicians and sorcerers. I'd rather see a continued emphasize on the fact that Elemental takes place in a world that was ravaged by magic; that elemental takes place in a post-apocalyptic fantasy world where magic is rare.
No, many games copy from other games. Just look at how many Diablo clones there are out there.
I think the one thing the OP left out was choosing your magic books.
If you look at the bookshelf between the pile of coins and the magic wand you can see that wiizard knew one book of nature magic, one of sorcery/air, one of chaos/fire and 4 books of life magic. Clearly Freya 2.0 here spent most of her 13(?) points on all those talents listed.
You could have up to 13(?) books in one type of magic and the number of books determined (randomly) what spells you could research from that group. And some of the talents were dependent on knowledge. Like node mastery above which (iirc) doubled mana from all nodes (big magic batteries like shards but with potent guardians) but required you to know one book each in red, blue and green (which were the three colors of nodes).
Most of the default leaders had one or two colors of magic plus an appropriate talent. Unlike Elemental where all the mages have full access to every spell in all 4 elements and either life or death, and you can learn a few more lists from quests. In comparison to MoM, differences in Elemental Sovereigns are very superficial currently.
I see you had MysticX there. My favourite hero.
But yeah, a bit more individuality to the heroes - not only in descriptions but in actual stats etc. - would be a great thing.
While I think that MoM is a great game in its own right, I think that Stardock is doing the right thing by making Elemental as much their own as can be. There are plenty of elements of gameplay in Elemental that only need some minor balance tweaking to be effective. There are plenty of others that could be improved a good deal, and perhaps they're draw further inspiration from other fantasy 4x games like MoM (Heroes come to mind). But Ultimately, Elemental has to be Elemental, and not MoM.
Such a great game. It was the title that finally got me to buy my own PC as opposed to bumming off of my roomate's in college.
I have and always will love MOM. It was the game that inspired me to purchase a PC. I actually saw and game and a big, thick hint book and purchased both months before I could even buy a PC.
Over the years, I have lost track of how many games I have played and loved (and hated!), but MOM and MOO2 rank very high up on my list of all time favorites.
Yes, I too was hoping Elemental would recapture some of that Magic from MOM, but for all its goodness, it is no MOM.
I sit waiting and hoping they fix this game up, because in it's current state it is just far too messy (just my opinion folks). It really does make me sad to think after 16 years, some very basic things are being missed in Elemental. I would look hard and look close at what MOM did right and try and get this game moving past the 'Ok, its FUN, but I am already tired of..' into 'Man, I can't STOP playing this game!'
I don't want Elemental to be a MOM clone. I don't think most of us do. What I do want is an immersive game of the caliber MOM was. It was very 'deep' to me.
Elemental does NOT grab me like MOM did.
(I see the poster above me also got the urge to get his PC because of MOM. Talk about an amazing game huh?)
I agree, but rare != uber weak. How could they destroy the world with these 0-damage spells?
I'm okay with spells requiring shards and lots of MP. Or some turns to cast. But not with spells being _useless_ and dealing less than hammer in damage.
Here are some things of the things MOM did SO right that I can only wish Elemental did..
From the beginning, I sat there pondering choices at character creation that would impact my game, long term.
Should I spend my 'picks' on 10 books of the same type of magic, thus allowing me to eventually research all 40 spells of that color? Should I dabble in several book colors, knowing full well I would not be able to research all of the spells, but knowing I had a chance of discovering some of the magic spells from loot for the color of magic I had books in? The traits in Elemental are either lackluster, broken, overpowered or a combination of the above.
Speaking of the books.. each one had a theme. All books had great summons, cool damage spells, but some (nature/life) had great city and unit buffs. Sorcery was the great antimagic color, or spells/units that bypasses defenses. Death magic carried negatives to diplomacy, Life carried positives. In elemental I just grab every single spellbook, cause I don't know what kind of shards I might get. Very..boring choice to make. All of the skills to pick were pretty awesome too. The real expensive ones? Like starting on Myrror, I knew right off I would be starting with less spellbooks because of the cost of the pick, but I also knew my world around me would be rich with resources, I would get to pick one of 5 very hardy or magic races with awesome special units and the nodes and towers and such around me would be tough to conquer, but offer awesome rewards. It was a strategic choice I was given and I loved it.
"The player can customize some aspects of generation (land mass size, strength of magic, etc.). The player can also customize the skills, spell choices, and appearance of the player's wizard, as well as choosing one of fourteen races for the wizard's starting city." (taken from the wiki)
Yes, I loved being able to manipulate some variables of my world before entering. I loved trying to match up specific races with special units with certain types of magic for great combos. Loved running around searching for the 'good' mineral veins so I could upgrade my units later on with magic weapons, or looking for nodes close to my city, knowing the awesome magic power I would glean from them.
Heroes came with their OWN mana pools, which grew as they did. I loved knowing magic was a strong part of my game, and that each combat I was going to be able to cast up to my heroes maximum mana in spells IF I CHOSE TO, but also knowing the distance my heroes were from my capital city would affect how much of my personal 'magic' pool they would be dipping into. The pool of mana I had was the limiting factor on spellcasting, and it was great. It worked out so very well.
In Elemental I am annoyed at how little magic I can cast and how extremely long it takes to get mana back. War of MAGIC? Really? It feels more like war of 'I am out of mana, most of my spells missed, and now I am fleeing for my life or club whacking and praying' in the early parts of the game.
Loved seeing my heroes level up, being able to equip great items. Being able to enchant and create my OWN magic items, limited only by the cost of making them. Want an UBER weapon? Going to cost you a LOT of mana and a lot of turns to cast it. Was awesome that you could imbue weapons you created with charges (1 to 4 charges!) of spells you personally knew, like charges of battlefield only summons, or a healing spell!) Lord, Elemental needs stuff like this.
Anyway, I could go on and on..
I really hope they get their stuff together with this game, and at least look back at what games like MOM did well and try to incorporate it, while maintaining their own individuality.
This. Just.. this.
Huge variations in 'sovereigns' with the most fundamental choice being which spellbooks you took. That affected the entire way you played the game: which nodes you went after most, which summoned creatures you had supporting your armies, how you affected the world as you grew more powerful. Elemental currently has some minor production bonuses or penalties for sovereigns, with the most extreme I think being Master Archers, which gives you early access to archer units.. but nothing that others can't access themselves with a few turns of effort. MOM factions could range from a feel-good nature lover whose armies were filled with war bears and giant spiders, cities surrounded by magically lush fields and protected by stone walls raised straight out of the ground vs. a necromancer whose cities lurked under clouds of darkness, whose loyal soldiers were turned into horrible undead abominations at the first sign of trouble and wrapped in terrifying shrouds of shadow, who sacrificed their citizens in dark rituals in exchange for mystical power.
A truly massive grimoire (google it, you can find the whole thing in PDF format online) with on the order of 40 spells per school of magic, covering the full range of direct combat effects, short term tactical and long term strategic troop buffs, city buffs, terraforming and world-altering global spells, the magical equivalent of Civilization's Wonders
Unique heroes with distinct abilities. Mages who could cast their own spells and even contribute to your own rituals if they were powerful enough. Knights who could wade into combat with entire armies and emerge unscathed. Rangers with Legolas-like archery skills and the ability to lead your troops quickly through the most difficult terrain. Born leaders who could turn green mortal troops into elite warriors. Famous bards to sing your praises across the land and bring more heroes to your doorstep looking for hire.
Loot! Magic items with nearly as much variety as the spell system (since most of the effects were derived from those spells), from simple keen blades and strong armor to battle axes that turned all they touched to stone and plate armor that turned spells as easily as it did blades. Not only discoverable through questing and ruin delving but able to be created (at great investment of time and magic) by your own magic.
Distinctive units for each of a dozen races. Humans cavalry vs. trolls on wall-crushing war mammoths vs. draconian drake-riders vs. tank-like klackon stag beetles. Axe-throwing berserkers vs. plucky halfling slingers. Swift elven rangers vs. black-cloaked dark elf assassins. And that's before you start supplying them with mithril or adamantine blades or start enchanting them.
*pant pant* Ok, enthusiasm overload there, I know. The specifics of a lot of that isn't necessarily appropriate to Elemental's unique flavor and storyline, it's true. However, there's still plenty to take away there. Every sovereign having access to the same spell list was a major let down for me, as was the limited depth of those spellbooks. Here's hoping that StarDock works some of this level of variation in when they revamp the magic system. Ditto loot, though I seem to recall somewhere that enchanting was waiting for an expansion. I just have to say that questing through monster-haunted wilderness and opening a chest only to find the exact same mundane equipment I equip my mundane infantry with is really disappointing. We may not have high fantasy races like dark elves and draconians to play with, but trogs and wraiths should really have more distinctions between them than a couple of bonus HP and a difference in base combat speeds. Ditto more troop specialization than mace vs. sword vs. hammer vs. no don't bother with ranged weapons, and whether to splurge on armor or not.
And one last little thing to take away from Master of Magic: the manual. MOM's manual was huge even back in days of yore when manuals actually came with games instead of being outsourced as "strategy guides" and wikis, and it was written with such depth that it seemed like they expected you to mod the game even though such a thing was unheard of. Not only did it include full explanations of every screen in the game and every option available, it included full details on the calculations used in combat and the actual meaning of unit statistics. Doubly important if being able to get into the guts of the game and change things is actually one of your big selling points.
Platoo, verata , noctoo !
By the power of the Necronomicon, Gods of MoM i invoke you here and now !
(I am watching Evil dead 3 atm while i sometimes stop to check the forum )
Except when a computer player cast it, and it caused massive unhapiness in your own cities, but didnt affect any of the other AI.
Ditto great wasting.
(I think the spell was called armageddon)
Then why do you make that choice?
Plus i likes the little icons on the champions sheets, the swords, bucklers etc.. old school but nice
'Then why do you make that choice?' Because we dont know what to do ?
'Then why do you make that choice?'
Because we dont know what to do ?
Well....I guess Stardock did take the 'spiritual successor' thing too far eh? Let's hope Elemental gets proper & stable before 2011!
A clearly written manual please. And considering the openness nature of Elemental, maybe provide some templates for modders to create their own units statistics/cheatsheet.
I haven't take a look at the modding system, for anyone who has, can a MoM-clone mod be made for Elemental? After the last Elemental crash I fired up DOSbox for a game of MoM...it's still one of the most enjoyable game ever!
It has been confirmed they intend to expand into item enchantment and creation in the 1st expansion. So this is going to happen.
This was covered in early development. They opted not to have generic 'shaman' type units that use magic like generic arrows or whatever. And honestly that is not one of the things that made MoM special. It was extremely powerful, and I enjoyed watching my wizards rain fireballs upon the enemies, it is exactly like normal ranged attacks except it effects magic resistant units and drains mana instead of ammo.
So if its going to ever be in, it will be mod work (unless they change their mind, or special magical creatures come into account)
yeah, like how charisma effects this in Elemental?
(actually fame did very little in MoM. Supposedly it did after the 1.31 patch, but I played the old disc version and Fame really effected very little then other having some enemy wizards kinda* like you more and having a slightly higher chance of random 'bad' units appearing to try to join you.)
remember random huts that give you awesome gear? I got this awesome bow from a hut next to my starting city that made my sovereign totally awesome. (functionally the same, and I got a more active role in actually walking to the hut in Elemental)
We just need more gear to collect (since right now the amount of gear is a fairly short list.)
yes and no. They would have to go out of their way to make it similar enough that they could risk losing to a copy-right lawsuit. Having new models, 3D graphics, a different name, different music... and everything else was basically direct copy with a name change, it wouldn't violate copyright. And even if it were (which I remind, it wouldn't because the old wizards/spells/monsters/items/terrain/worlds are all stereotypes) there really isn't anybody who would be able to carry the lawsuit out. That is why MoM is often mixed with 'abandonware'
Brad specifically decided they were NOT going to make a master of magic game. They were just going to make a similar game that also filled some of the gap left by Age of Wonders and Heroes of Might and Magic (though HoMM has actually had a sorta recent sequel that was pretty good, except in the DRM department)
I agree that I wish I could see Master of Magic directly ported to the high resolution/3D screen with multiplayer capabilities and updated UI and game concepts. I still would like to ensure this is going to come true at least as a mod to elemental... (sadly beta 5 was kinda skimmed over, so I'm not exactly sure when I'm going to start on that. I guess as soon as I'm done with my other projects or next time I'm unemployed)
Another thing is MoM has really big shoes to fill for a small company. The OP here is to prove it. I mean, did you play MoM? To make my point let me quote from a discussion between myself and a roommate.
Roommate: "So, is it the next Master of Magic?"Me: "well, its got a ways to go, but I expect after a few patches and an expansion its going to be much better. Its still a little buggy"Roommate: "Well, I haven't seen any bugs so far. It looks pretty good, except for the combats a little slow"Me: "its true, just once in a blue moon. Like sometimes it just will crash. You have to save often."
Roommate: "So it EXACTLY like master of magic."
Me: "huh... yes... yes I guess it is like master of magic, except the spell catigories are a boolean flip, not spell books. Just follow the same gave save policies and you'll do fine"
Roommate: "I put up with it to play master of magic, I can put up with it for this game.
(I let him play my game for a bit and he enjoyed it very much. He plans to buy it as soon as the multiplayer is ready.)
(in case you missed the point. Everybody who is complaining about it being buggy and unbalanced... are not allowed to mention the words "master of magic" in the same complaint. Failure to do so will break the rules of irony and likely make you just look like a fool.
That game was so freakishly buggy some people do not even consider the game playable until 1.31. and it has NEVER been remotely balanced. To this day some of its special abilities don't work and spell damage math doesn't calculate correctly.)
Hehe same for me
Because it is the logical one. Currently the spellbooks in Elemental are binary propositions. You either take them or you don't, unlike MoM where you could take none, a few, or many books in the various paths. The key to MoMs spellbooks is that you could never get them all, each one you took in one element meant you were giving up a book in another element (or traits). Making the choice of which books to take was agonizing, and entertaining. The choice you made there completely changed how the game played and so offered immense replayability.
In Elemental all of the spell books are cheap, it's easy to pick them all, especially since there's largely nothing else worth spending points on. You have no idea which shards you'll be near and they're all nearly the same anyways. Picking them all is a no brainier which is boring.
remember random huts that give you awesome gear? I got this awesome bow from a hut next to my starting city that made my sovereign totally awesome.
Not really no... I remember huts that give me ultra crappy random gear that makes my sovereign still totally suck in combat that I could also buy in town... but I'm not really recalling any awesome gear no.
Btw nothing to do with the tread , but the game lacks undeads so bad !!
Another thing that MoM had that this game needs. An interface. If you are clicking through your bowmen on MoM and get a melee unit instead, it stays where it is if you miss click. In EWoM, you suddenly are trying to figure out why your Sov is running across the middle of the field. If you right click on anything in MoM you get help on what that item does. In EWoM right click is the new left click and help is nearly non existent.
Edit: oh and btw I am suggesting not bashing. I have been playing EWoM almost constantly since Monday.
EWoM will have an extraordinary lifespan.
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