Okay, so this is just my opinion, but I value my opinion.
I don't think the initial release of EWOM was ever meant to be an end game. This game was always meant to be a platform for us to play with and expand upon. This was meant as something that each person could make their own. If you want a fully polished and complete game that you play for a month and then move on, then buy SC2 or something other carbon copy piece of crap something else.
However...
...If you want a game that you will be playing for the next decade because every time you look there is a new fantastic mod that makes it seem like you are playing a brand new game, then buy EWOM because that is exactly what this is.
I'm tired of people complaining that this game was released 'unfinished' because this game will never be finished until we, the gaming community, get tired of it and move on. For me, I would still be playing MoM if I could find a copy, but I have this now and I'm not letting go. This is love people, love of gaming at its finest. I'm all for Freedom of Speech, but wake up to the possibilities, if you see something in this game you don't like, then get off your a** and mod it the way you want it!
...well I guess you still need to be sitting down, but you catch my drift.
Oh, and as a disclaimer I meant no offense to Blizzard. You guys are cool too and I'm still waiting for Diablo 3. Anytime guys.
Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox. Gonna go mod something.
*edit* True, SC2 is not a carbon copy piece of crap. Too many people are focusing on that sentence so I am lining it out.
From what I can see, the modding tools you (the OP) are referring to simply don't exist. I've been playing Elemental pretty heavily since I got it on Monday, and I have a laundry list of things I would change (having done a lot of modding in the past), but I can't. I can't change the core statistics in the game. I can't change the way tactical maps are generated, their size or the distribution of the units within them. I can't really change much of the game's behaviour at all. Even C4, which, for my money after NWN is the most heavily modded game I'm aware of, btw, had callbacks to a "client" side scripting engine (using python) to modify the behaviour of the game at release. Later Firaxis released a c++ sdk exposing large chunks of the game engine for modification. From what I've found so far, modding in Elemental consists of changing xml files. So you can change weapons, you can change tech trees, stats and order of things, but you can't change the way anything fundamentally behaves in the game.
And, without a doubt, there are a lot of bugs. Cached value issues, display bugs, animation bugs, mouse point to game geometry mapping bugs, even simple things like "You can only build one.. or two... of this building per settlement/faction/game"... Some of these are pretty basic bugs, and I can understand why people might be pissed off. I think SD will fix most of the bugs and finish the missing features left out to make their ship date (anyone who followed the beta cycles knew they were either going to ship incomplete or have to delay). The question in my mind is when they get done, will they have put in enough capability for fans to create a decent game out of it and will there be a large enough fanbase left for such a modding community to generate momentum. That I really can't tell yet, but I hope there will be. What I am pretty sure of is that SD's base game is never going to be very good, even with all the bugs fixed. It has some interesting ideas, but mostly, it's just not a very good game design.
Reality check folks: Elemental has the potential to be a great game...a classic game...but it is unfinished, and what we're playing now is what many people who do testing would recognize as a beta build. Is that necessarily a bad thing? No. Is it a little disappointing to spend $50 and find out that you've essentially bought into a paid beta/open design phase? Yup.
It's good that the game is at least finished enough to offer some entertainment, with the occassional frustrating circumstance, but I struggle to understand the viewpoint/justification that the mechanics are working soundly, that most games need patching to this degree, or that Stardock games are different than other games in that we're simply given a platform and the rest is up to us/the development team to finish off.
To the first: the mechanics are not working soundly...it's a fact, not an opinion. Tactical combat is broken, magic doesn't work like it should, and there are a number of mechanics that, although functional, need a heavy revamp to actually work as we would all like them to(combat rolls, sov stats, unit design/specialties/differentiation, to name a few.)
To the second: most games do not need this degree of patching/completion post-launch. I will concede that most developers now generally have 1-2 major patches within the first two weeks of any launch to finish patching out crash and performance bugs, making slight AI changes, and tweaking other mechanics after they've received widespread community feedback that was not present during the beta phases. Elemental, however, needs much more than simply bug/performance fix patches. It has numerous key mechanics that need overhauls, features that seem like they meant to be fleshed out more but weren't, in addition to all the small tweaks here and there that other games sometimes need. In other words, the game needs to be finished...not simply patched. The last game I saw needing this level of work after launch was Hellgate London which was unintelligently launched against the vast majority of beta-tester's warnings(I was one of them) telling them that numerous core game elements needing changing. Low and behold less than a year later the entire game was dead. That's not to say I think Elemental will fail; far from it in-fact. My point being is that, regardless of the misconception floating around from some hardcore supporters, most games, including Stardock's last "difficult" launch with Demigod, do not need this level of work post-release to get the game to what most people would call "finished" and ready for a $50 retail tag.
To the third: The modibility of Stardock games is, in my opinion, in combination with the mod community that has grown around them, the main allure to buy their products. I can always count on a game becoming infinitely better as time wears on due to Stardock's continued support, and player mods. I have *NO DOUBT* that this will be the case with Elemental...a year from now I don't think anyone will recognize Elemental from how it stands now. I truely believe that by that point we'll all be playing one of the best 4x strategy games every made, and it will continue to get better. But until then let's not pretend that Stardock games should be held to a different standard on release. They are capable of delivering finished products, albeit with the normal patch concerns of any pc game, and we should not do them the disservice of holding them to a lower standard with this release. It is much better for all parties involved to admit that this launch was not what it could have been, not what it should have been, and then move on to FIX and FINISH. To this end I hope Stardock considers releasing additional mod tools to give us access to more mechanics.
I just want to end and say that I am enjoying Elemental immensely even in its current state, and am really looking forward to the multiplayer coming up so I can try my hand against some human players. In particular, I want to try this with my brother as we both used to love playing games like HMOM with each other(although, in all honesty, I'm not sure I can justify the $50 price to him next week).
LOL, after reading so many posts, I've come to the conclusion the Internets (lol) makes everyone a developer! Oh the anonymous nature of the Internets, please tell me this is how we act in real life?!?!
Heh qouted for truth, everyone is an expert:)
Including apparently you, who knows better than ourselves on what we should and shouldn't expect from things that we spend our money on.
You are aware that not everyone is hit by most of these bugs, right? I for one only crash if I alt-tab. I have two computers sitting on my desk, so my need to alt-tab is negligible, so it's a non-issue to me, or I could just run it in a window, which is fine. The only other bug I get is the one where the sound cuts out periodically. It's worked fine for me since the 0-day beyond that. I don't even notice these major slowdowns people talk about.
The alternative problem here is that your mind is boggled by the fact that people think that things they don't see happening are perfectly acceptable. To them, why wouldn't it be? Everything's working fine, what is there to complain about? That's not to say there isn't problems with things like the AI, but some of us remember Civ4 at launch and the pathetic excuse for AI that existed there.
The mind boggling thing to me is that everyone assumes their experience is the experience everyone has, and therefore since everyone has their experience, why do they have a different opinion?
...Occam's Razor suggests they had a different experience. Just saying.
I do? What kind of BS statement is that? You decide what you want to spend money on and feel free to make suggestions on how to fix things...his statement was true if that burns your over sensitive self I have nothn for ya.
You're confusing modding in new features with basic stability (greatly improved with 1.06), balanced gameplay (still a long way to go), more intuitive UI (still some way to go), adequate AI (long way to go), promised feature (MP), etc. -- all things that are necessary for a game to be 'release-ready'.
I'm not talking about 100% perfection, but rather SD delivering on the promises made, and Elemental being in a reasonable state of polish/balance. And if you think it already is then answer this -- why is SD working their butts off doing just this instead of taking some time off to recover from the pre-release marathon? Go argue with SD about this, as their actions show they don't agree with you.
If you think Elemental's release is as good as SD is capable of then you're doing them a disservice.
If you think SD as a company will prosper long term by putting out games in Elemental's condition then you're doing them a disservice.
If you think that mischaracterizing the legitimate complaints of reasonable players with your strawman is in SD's best interest then we'll have to agree to disagree.
That made zero sense and proves my point.
Not to mention you modified his quote. Maybe on purpose, maybe not. Just goes to prove that on the internet everyone becomes an expert. Its very sickening actually.
QFT.
I bought a game. Not a platform. The game isn't done. SD are working very hard on finishing it. I appreciate that. I don't appreciate spending my money on something unfinished.
I'm no modder, most people aren't. What am I supposed to do to fix the game? I'll tell you. I communicate the problems I encounter on these forums so that Stardock is aware of them. Stardock, being a good developer, takes this information, from me and others, and figures out the problem. Getting on your soapbox must have been cathartic, but you've missed the point.
I've had only one crash during gameplay; this isn't about crashes specific to certain setups. This is about entire mechanics (the plethora of tactical combat bugs being the biggie, but vanishing stacks upon load is another game-killer) that flat out aren't coded to function correctly for anyone. That's not something you can mod to make right. I've posted a bug report for every error or glitch that I've encountered, but I can't mod it out of existence nor negate it with sheer willpower. Pretending that the game is fine, a sentiment that I've read repeatedly on these forums, doesn't help a damned thing.
No one is stating it is completly fine though....they are working on it, so what make multiple posts about it over and over ad nuseum....I'm not sure that does anything. The interface thread that someone posted now that was nice.
I hate Starcraft 2 as much as anyone with good taste but I sure as hell did not pay for NWN: Strategy Edition. I paid for a game. I expect to get my money's worth within a few months.
If the game does not get redesigned to become a decent successor to MoM within a few months I will feel very pissed off and ripped off.
As someone with good taste, can you tell us why do you hate Starcraft 2?
Can't get anymore elitist than that. I enjoyed SC2, I must be part of the uncultured and unwashed swine.
^ That. Yes, it's got problems. It's launch week. The first month of damn near every game that comes out is a nightmare. They're working on it, StarDock admits there are problems and are working on fixing it. Those of us who love the game are aware it has issues, but we're willing to stick with it and offer constructive criticism.
We're just sick of people foaming at the mouth about it. Mmkay. You're having issues. Put it on the shelf and wait for some patches to come out if it's not something you can deal with.
My God, does anyone appreciate the fact SD created a PC game rather than follow the console route. Have we become that shallow and selfish that what they are trying to do (and will succeed) is not good enough?
When have we last saw a game like this?
Krool
Weaksauce game
Umm... no it isn't...
Most games that are released play just fine. Nowhere near "nightmare" level.
You are such a fanboy, it isn't even funny. We're supposed to revere Stardock because you think it's a virtue that they released a PC exclusive?
That makes absolutely no sense. I mean, c'mon, stop drinking the kool-aid for one second.
EDIT: I'm happy many of you are finding fun in this game. But I think most would agree that it was a very lackluster release, to say the least. Just because it is a PC exclusive doesn't mean it should be given a pass. Our money is still real money, the value of our currency doesn't change because it's a PC game.
You know how stupid it makes you look throwing out the Fanboy line? Just making sure you noticed that.
Wait a minute, time out. You're right. We all should just remember, this game is on the PC!!!! Woohoo!
/sarcasm
Dude, wtf are you on about?
I was drooling over Elemental since its announcement. Fantasy 4X is a rare thing, and it was great to hear someone going to do the job. I've been following devjournal, and was all excited about following release, and was telling about the game on my forum and in communities I participate in. For a whole august I've had my finger over 'purchase' button for LE version, but sanity won ("Okay, and what are you going to do with that merchandise? Throw away as you did with other LE's? Check the game before paying!").
And I'm definitely not regretting not preordering it. I did not have the chance to play it myself, because my-unpaid-demo-version () still crashes at my PC, but I did read a lot of reviews, feedbacks at the forums, and this forum in particular. And things I read make me wish SD held release till Feb.
I, for one, don't care much about bugs, crashes, UI, graphics and lack of docs. After all, my favorite game is Dwarf Fortress, and I've donated to it more than any PC game costs.
But I DO care about overall game design (rulesets) and game mechanics. So there are _tactical_ battles with units having only 3 stats? Which stack up for groups?? And no special abilities for most of them??? So where is _tactics_ there?
I didn't like the way GalCiv2 handles this, but at least galciv didn't pretend to be fantasy 4X with RPG elements. I've thought having ATT/DMG and DEF/AC separate are de-facto standards for this genre. Plus for magic be reasonable, it definitely needs at least separate resistance value (or, better yet, one for each magic damage type, as any other fantasy game does).
And the magic... Is that something you can call magic?? In Dominions, you can empower your mage in fire magic few times, give him a handful of fire gems, and watch him wipe whole armies with single spell. It takes a hell of resources to bring someone to decent level in specific school, and you risk losing it all when battling (unless, like me, you just summon demiliches, who respawn in capital when killed), but you are rewarded with something that can actually change the tides in the battle.
One of the very first complains people were voicing in our hardcore gamers community is the lack of proper global spells. Something which takes ALOT to cast in both time, skill and resources, but is actually felt everywhere in the game world. After all, Sovs are intended to reshape this barren world. And they ought to have powers to do it.
And these things are not the 'polish' or game content like the-very-same-factions (once again, compare with Dom3. Ulm, Ermor, Rlyeh, Abyss, Japan (w/e it was called) - they all feel different, with different play styles), these are the very foundation of the game - its mechanics and rules.
I am happy that Devs go on about fixing those, but I got very creepy feeling when saw that they started changing very fundamental rules with each patch. Sorry, but this cannot be interpreted otherwise than lack of ANY overall design and its testing.
So yeah, I'm not asking for 'End Game' as OP puts it. But I'm asking for a GAME, not game engine. And GAME in essence is a ruleset.
I'm as well feel that Elemental is being treated not too fair (esp in regards to personal attacks on Brad), but how else you can call the game other than 'unfinished', when developers, after release, state that they have no idea to fix magic other than doing INT-based rolls against DEF? Because noone bothered to think about it before and bring RESistance into stats?
So let's recap:
1. Elemental is released riddled with bugs and playability issues.
2. Krooldeath defends this by saying that Stardock should be appreciated for releasing a PC exclusive and that those who don't appreciate Stardock for this gift are "shallow and selfish"
If that isn't being a fanboy, I don't know what the hell is. It's zealous brand loyalty, that is what being a fanboy is all about.
It's still name-calling to label someone a "fanboy". Attack the ridiculous ideas, not the person spouting them.
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