I am really enjoying Elemental. However I feel it needs some more work. It just feels like I have to make too many concessions each game and am not really challenged. Also, the simplicity of the tactical battles was a HUGE dispointment and really kills my desire to start a fresh game... I like indie devs, and support this game as well as Darkfall, just so we can have more variety and push the quality of AAA games. I feel like their hands were tied as far as release date and its either support them or see 5 major studios release all of our content.
Anyways, I keep hearing people mention other RTS games like dominion and MoM etc. I would be interested in trying a new game while I wait for Elemental to get polished. One game that seems similar is HOMM5. I REALLY liked the tactical combat, but the overmap and strategy elements fell flat. Can anyone recommend any other games to try, hopefully one that is still rather recent (past 5 years Id say).
Thanks for any suggestions!
Oh, also has anyone heard the extent of mods? Could we put something as complex as HOMM tactical battles into Elemtental? How about have dungeons actually load up dungeons that are REALLY long tactical battle maps...
Hands down AoW:SM, those dudes at Triumph are so ubercool, I had a clan and played with them in a LAN café in The Hague a couple of times... Playing (and in one case winning!) against the devs in their own game that they really really loved to play was unforgettable and will always keep me a big fan of Triumph (well... unless they sack all those people and turn completely crap of course, there are always scenarios one can think of when one uses his/her imagination...).
So yeah, Age of Wonders: Shadow Magic is AWESOME! It's the best of the best. The community made a very elaborate 1.4 patch that's amazing, and everything was just great... map editor was good and easy to use, balance was good, magic good, way they handled turn... everything.
The precursor Age of Wonders was the second best in this genre.
For me the only serious issue with AoWSM is the AI, so it's better to play it as a multiplayer game, or using special maps that make the AI stronger than human players by giving it more units/cities/etc. from start and/or during the game using events.
Yeah multiplayer is so good with the 'simultaneous turns'. Heck even hotseat kept me very busy for years. I think I remember you even from AoWII Heaven pawelS, such good memories (I am using a different nick now).
The thing is: no matter how good the AI is, it's (so far I know up till now anyways) STATIC. So either it's too hard, unfair, or you learn to 'exploit' it's weaknesses and it's too easy (or it's too easy altogether).
The problem with a static AI is that in the very best case it's just about as good as you without exploits, and that way it will be down to random luck (close resources, a roll that keeps your lvl 4 unit alive in that one battle, etc) Play that then long enough and that will seem to be bad. Humans opponents > AI up till now (unless you play for different reasons (story, figuring out the game etc)).
With all the positive remarks regarding AoW I for one can't wait for it to hit Steam.
http://www.ageofwonders.com/ ( <-- c'mon, hurry up!! )
BTW, Stardock, if there's any chance it's going to show up on Impulse, I'd love to know.
Why can the AI only be as good as the player without cheating? Most chess and backgammon AIs will beat any human player and they achieve this without luck. Now granted, those are relatively simple games (in terms of the rules, not the depth), but they are also far beyond what most humans are capable of, so they could do worse and still be better.
Have you played AI War? This game probably has the strongest gaming AI right now, and the one in GalCiv2 was very excellent, too. I think a lot can be done in the AI field for games, but it takes effort, expertise and a budget. If a game has multiplayer, the AI tends to get even less attention since "real people offer the best challenge" is a convenient excuse. In case of Elemental, Brad is going to spend significant time working just on the AI, which to me illustrates how complex a task this is.
AIs that cheat (i.e. get advantages such as information or resources) and therefore play by different rules than the players are something I never liked in games. It bugged me in AoW, too. (Still an excellent game, one of the best.)
About Heroes of Might & Magic... never tried any of the series.
Are those campaign only? Or is there a sandbox mode too?
Except campaigns there are also single maps (scenarios), and (IIRC) a random map generator in a HoMM3 expansion.
HoMM5 eventually got a random map generator too, if I remember correctly.
If you want to play Age of Wonders:Shadow Magic right now you can. It's on GameTap. It's their premium package though but for 9.99 a month you can play a ton of cool games like AoW:SM instantly. It's worth noting they also have ALL the Heroes of Might and Magic and some other great games like Space Colony, Startopia, Kings Bounty:The Legend (which they just added), Civ 4, Colonization, Kohan 2 (which was mentioned here also I think), Disciples 2 (which was also mentioned),.... so for 9.99 you're getting a lot of strategy gaming goodness. I see they also added all the classic Sierra adventure games which were legendary.
I as thinking of picking up the HOMM5 bundle (with both expansions) for $19.99, but then I got to thinking if I'd even really play it...
http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-Might-Magic-Epic-Collection/dp/B0028GY640/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=software&qid=1283295854&sr=8-3
It's also available on Steam, but for $5 more... By the time you had shipping and handling, the Steam might be a better deal.
I recommend you HOMM3 Complete. It's for $9,99 in GoG. It has a random map generator, but you don't need it, because there are dozen of good maps that ship with the complete version.
The last version of HOMM5 is good to, but IMO not as better as HOMM3. The main difference are better graphics.
I briefly alluded to King of Dragon Pass earlier... since its so obscure I'll go into a bit of detail. It's a Viking Clan simulation with very distinctive mythological and supernatural elements based off the world of Glorantha, which is truly one of the most fully realized fantasy worlds I have encountered in gaming.
The game is slow, and contains no animation, but the art is beautiful. It's kind of like a (really hard) choose your own adventure. Except the number of variables the game tracks is staggering. The game is also huge. I've been playing for years and still run into new random events and storylines.
There's an excelllent "Let's Play" here: http://lparchive.org/LetsPlay/KODP/
Will show you just what the game is like and how completely bizarre and awesome it can get.
Duckmen of outrageous magical power? Check. Vikings riding on dinosaurs? Check. Vikings on hallucinogenic drugs re-enacting the legends of their gods in a state of such fervor that forty people are killed? Check.
And so, so much more.
You can get Heroes of Might & Magic 5 (version 3.1), on Impulse, for less than $10. An Autumn 2008 game, it is much more beautiful than Elemental ... if you play it on a 20-inch+ monitor, with all graphical features maxed-out.
Thanx folks! I'll check Heroes out then, as soon as I have some time
This. HoMM3 + expansions is the way to go. [Note: Hopefully HoMM 6. will be awesome ]
HOOM3 is the best one in the series imo,if you have not tried it you have missed alot!
<<<ENDQUOTE
Mivo:Why can the AI only be as good as the player without cheating? Most chess and backgammon AIs will beat any human player and they achieve this without luck. Now granted, those are relatively simple games (in terms of the rules, not the depth), but they are also far beyond what most humans are capable of, so they could do worse and still be better.Have you played AI War? This game probably has the strongest gaming AI right now, and the one in GalCiv2 was very excellent, too. I think a lot can be done in the AI field for games, but it takes effort, expertise and a budget. If a game has multiplayer, the AI tends to get even less attention since "real people offer the best challenge" is a convenient excuse. In case of Elemental, Brad is going to spend significant time working just on the AI, which to me illustrates how complex a task this is.AIs that cheat (i.e. get advantages such as information or resources) and therefore play by different rules than the players are something I never liked in games. It bugged me in AoW, too. (Still an excellent game, one of the best.)
Hmm you quoted a part of my text and then seemed not to have read the rest, or at least misunderstood.
I am sorry for that, let me try and clarify:
As I said: the AI is static, meaning that it doesn't change tactics (even if it has a random generator choosing between different styles that's still static, it cannot learn, grow, develop, try wild things not already in the code). So, in the best case scenario it is just at human level, meaning that you win 50% of the time. (I call this best because winning 90-100% of the time seems to me to get boring or annoying (we are talking years of gaming anyway, I am not talking about when the game is still fresh and new or when you are playing it for the storyline or such) and losing 90-100% of the time as well.) Now, when it is at that best level (basically as good as you 50% of the time, then the only possible way for it to remain that way (again, we're talking long term here), is there to be no further player learning possible that makes the player better and that would then shift the balance to an undesired percentage (remember the AI is static so it cannot evolve along (yet, could be possible in the future, and yes, difficulty levels can simulate that for a while)). So if you win 50% of the time, you have maxed out the strategy/tactics and cannot learn anymore, then the biggest deciding factor of who wins is no longer skill, but random things, like resources starting far or near, or a lucky lucky shot in a certain battle. In the end, those random deciding factors get known to you and it will turn boring again. That's why I say human opponents always are better then AI ones, till now anyway.
I hope this made it easier to understand what I mean.
Greetings!
EDIT: and about AI exploits: I don't like them either, so that's why I say best case scenario is Ai not using exploits and beating you 50% of the time (roughly of course, say in a +- 15% range). One could also argue AI cheats do not matter if it wins 50% of the time against you, but i just think without cheating is preferrable, cleaner, better coded, feels better as a player.
Games like chess have an easier time with AI because they can use sort of a brute force approach when neccesary. This is where if the AI doesn't have a preprogrammed strategy, it can just examine every possible move it could make, then look at every possible move the turn after that, and keep going. This allows it to make some really smart moves even when whatever preset strategy it was working on gets thrown off it's rails.
This doesn't work in most computer strategy games though because there are so many more variations of a given turn. One particular turn in chess only has about 50 different options. However there are probably over a billion little variations to exactly what you can do in a turn in your average strategy game. This pretty much eliminates the option of giving the AI the ability to win through brute force computer calucations and forces it to rely on whatever preset strategies the programmers can put in.
Thanx again for the suggestions.
I've just re-purchased Master of Magic at GoG (really, 6$ and a windows installer... I was never able to have it run properly anyway).
I will surely check Heroes of Might & Magic the next weekend
Sure enough I'll have something to do while I wait for Elemental to "grow" a little.
Well no luck there either. MoM crashes all the time, even with the GoG installer. Completely unplayable.
Now, at 23,30 hours I can either go to sleep or start ANOTHER quest to get a game I just purchased in proper shape.
No luck this month, it seems. No matter how much I spend, 60$ or 6$, same result: go find another game.
Or maybe another hobby. Or buy a console.
Sorry for the rant... it'll pass
MoM works perfectly with DosBox, but I'm not sure if the GoG version allows using it...
GoG's version includes the DosBox package already set up for MoM.
Anyway I read some troubleshooting: disabling the antivirus might be the solution. Tried starting a game, and for the first time I could get as far as to move an unit. So, I'll try playing tomorrow I guess, too sleepy now
So Dominions 3 came in the mail today and it owns. It owns so fucking hard. This game rules. Ugh.. why can't Elemental be like this.
What kind of computer do you have? Post your problems on the gog.com forums they are really helpful
Stop it!! I don't want to spend any more money on games right now. You're making it difficult.
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