I think the Organized trait for Sovereigns is too important to ever not pick. I suppose if you planned on keeping your sov in a city past the first few turns you could live without it, but I don't see any other way to spend 10 points that has such a dramatic impact in the game, or makes your sov any more useful. It seems like the kind of thing a sovereign should be able to do anyway. Give it to all sovs free, and let us use points towards flavor traits that are interesting, but will not make or break the game by themselves. Also, it won't hurt the AI's ability to expand and defend their realms any, and it seems like they could use a little help there.
Don't do it or it will make the sovereigns even more overpowered, personally I would even increase the cost for that talent. Thanks to this talent and the bug that you can equip your sovereign with as many rings, kits and items as you desire, sovereigns can easily kill everything on the map without even touching any magic.
I think it should be made free as well.
Considering that your sovereign dying in enemy territory causes a game over and that makes actually attacking an enemy army with them dangerous, shouldn't they be powerful?
I love this trait personally, it really gives a feel of a magical leader bringing their army to battle. It's possible that it should be an innate ability on a "Warlord" type of champion rather then the sovereign, but I could go for this idea too.
^ This. I have actually stopped taking the Organized trait because it's really Over-Powered. Why is the +1 movement trait 15 pick points, but Organized, which is EONS more powerful (especially if you're Men and drop the 10 gold in the beginning to get Travelling Boots on T2) costs only 10?
Make it cost 20. Make people really sacrifice for this advantage.
Hell, remove it completely, give a reason to give your soldiers travelers cloaks or mounts if you want the stuff to move that fast.
I think the solution to this is to have the kingdom pass through the Dynasty, not to make the Sovereigns all OP or have a "required" trait. Having a trait that is necessary (either due to low pick cost for value or OP skill) reduces the number of valuable strategies and weakens the overall game.
I think it should be made more expensive. I like having it in the game for those who want it, but it's a very powerful ability and should cost more for those who want to build a strategy around it.
I'd remove it because it's too powerful to not pick and enabling it by default obsoletes all those movement increase options you have for your troops.
I wanted to talk about this.
Considering that your sovereign will die in enemy territory and that causes the game to end, your response shouldn't be "Then I need my sovereign to be more powerful". It should be "I need to keep my sovereign out of enemy territory". Better/more powerful champions, a family line with channeler kids, splitting your sov's essence to the champions, these are all viable strategies that are actually far more useful.
No one uses them. Why? Because Organized makes your Sovereign enable Blitzkrieg.
Why bother with Cavalry or scout-type units that can move rapidly? You can just load your sov up with a bunch of archers and obliterate all opposition before they can even approach in Tactical combat.
I see a lot of complaining about Champions not being worth hiring -- I would be willing to wager most of those people are using Organized every single time. If you don't have Organized, then Champions are incredibly useful because they keep your Sovereign out of harm's way during wars.
Speaking of Champions: If a Champion has a trait that requires mana, I don't care about the "Sov's are supposed to be channelers and all powerful, Champions shouldn't have mana". If they shouldn't have mana, they shouldn't have spell-like abilities that require mana. Either give them the minimum mana to fire the trait once in combat (which is usually three), or make the spell-like ability not use mana, but be "X times per combat" instead, this will make many Champions (especially high-level ones) infinitely more useful.
Also: Drop Organized or make it oppressively expensive, get people into making faster attack squads or, better yet, see value in dropping 200gildar in order to buy that Level 3 Adventurer with a smite ability to lead an offensive force.
Organized narrows one's strategic options. Not having it widens them, and in fact will actually make your kingdom better than you would be if you had it. One powerful army versus a swarm of moderately powerful armies and a Sovereign that patrols your entire empire. Which is better?
Lord Asmodeus, your post i excellent. I've actually never thought about it that way, but it makes sense. Well played.
Tomas
Easy fix:
<AbilityBonuses> <!--*******************--> <!-- LOGISTICS BONUSES --> <!--*******************--> <AbilityBonus InternalName="Sovereign_Ability_Logistics"> <AbilityBonusType>Champion_Talent</AbilityBonusType> <!-- ORGANIZED: Army the sovereign is in moves at the same speed as the sovereign --> <AbilityBonusOption InternalName = "Sovereign_Ability_Logistics_Organized"> <Cost>0</Cost> </AbilityBonusOption> </AbilityBonus>
</AbilityBonuses>
Removing it's ability is a little more tricky. Let me know if you figure out how to mod the remove of abilities and bonuses. Maybe a value 0 or something would do it, idk.
IMO, it is way too overpowered, especially with a couple more moves. Either all sovereigns should have it (via histories) or it should be really expensive.
But the sovereign is the focus of the game. He's *Me*, so to speak, in the game. He's the one going around founding a kingdom. He's doing quests. He's the all powerful magical channeler badass guy...
And he shouldn't go anywhere near enemy territory. WTF? It's lame and not fun.
The sovereign should be one of the strongest units on the field, leading the charge. Not sitting back in the capital because it's cozy and actually fighting can result in game over. I can't even begin to describe how much fun is sucked out of the game by that mechanic.
The sovereign can't be everywhere, so once we're at a point that having multiple stacks out at once makes sense it won't be as big of a problem.
Champions aren't worth hiring because the cost and commitment required to power them up is so much greater then the cost of a bunch of guys with Lord Maces who can simply one shot said champion, and the bunch of guys are much easier to replace. When the attack/defense mechanics are fixed, champions should become a lot better then they are right now.
Agree, but I think that's just a bug. Those abilities really shouldn't cost mana.
Yes, absolutely out there doing Quests, marching into Enemy territory? Not often. Kings were not commonly on the front lines, there are a few exceptions to this rule (for instance Richard the Lionhearted), but they were soldiers well before they were Kings, and in virtually all cases they were incredibly poor Kings.
Why is it not fun? There's a lot of other things for the Sov to do. Questing, for instance. Patrolling the territories of his Kingdom. Adjusting the terrain within the Kingdom. You're still marching around attacking stuff, so the fun is still there. The fact that your Sovereign isn't physically in enemy territory doesn't make him useless. Hell, take the city with a Champion, garrison the city with your King to fight off the counter-attack. Lots of different things you can do.
This goes one further if they add in that spell that closes off retreat points, by the by.
He is the strongest unit on the field, that doesn't mean he should be leading the Charge. Eisenhower didn't fight on the front lines. That sort of thing is lunacy. He has Generals that lead the Charge (aka Champions), the Sovereign has other matters to attend to that are just as fun (in some cases more, like Quests), and that doesn't require him sitting back in the capital because it's "cozy".
Outside of your territory, you are correct. Inside of your territory: Build more roads, then he sure as hell can be everywhere at once.
Yet if you had no Organized or you were up against a human player that wasn't using Organized, this benefit that you're seeing would be lost, because you would have one big army and he would win a war of attrition. Which is my entire point with that whole post -- Organized narrows your strategic options, not being Organized widens them and gives you a more robust strategy.
The organized trait is very sexy but there are other ways to get your troops more moves (cheap jewelry or kits, for ex).
The problem is that organized is vastly superior to most other traits. Most of them either outright suck and are useless or don't scale well and only have minimal impact. I take organized every time because it is ALWAYS useful. A trait that is always useful is a good trait. A trait that is mostly useful is a good trait. Traits that are butt assed useless, situational, or only a wee bit good for short burts are not good traits.
What is really needed is to make other traits that are worth a crap, or boost some of the existing traits.
For ex, the ones that give a measely +1 to tech or arcane are nice early, but become obsolete quickly. If they gave you a "boost" that equated to +1 and +.05 per level (so that it added another +1 every other level), then those traits would scale and be less useless.
Or maybe expand on the ultra simplistic, boring, and pathetic sovereign leveling so that when you take some bonuses like +1 tech, you get an option to boost that every other level by 1 instead of raising stats. Variety, options, decisions, detail, depth. They could let you save points and for 2x the cost of raising a stat you could ADD another ability as you develop your sov. C'mon. The bump 1 stat per level up thing is so pitifully simple that it's almost pointless. Does sov level impact anything other than a stat bump? Not that I've seen. Doesn't help with getting spells resisted or boost effectiveness in any noticeable way. What a waste.
A trait like "thrifty" would be good - your sov get's 25% off of gear costs or something like that - because gear costs are pretty painful. Gotta be other simple things you could come up with that'd be attractive compared to some of the garbage in the game now.
I find a lot of stuff about this game from traits to spells to interaction between game elements to be seriously lacking in imagination. For example, max tiles usable by a city is an arbitrary and static 50. Why? Why is this not tied into tech, city level, or something remotely logical. There are other examles you can come up with.
Why do you have to reseach the capacity to investigate ruins and stuff? I can see researching to find more - your people get better at locating stuff. But unlocking a tech suddenly makes your sov/champs/troops more capable of investigating ruins and putting the smack down on monsters they are already slaying by the score in the wilds? Why doesn't sov level have anything to do with this, like, I dunno, in every other RPG system ever created? The research thing isn't bad, but it's nebulous and doesn't make all that much sense.
Never seen much need for it myself. The only place I care about getting my sovereign to at any kind of urgency tends to be my own cities, and there's a teleport spell or three for that. Out in the wilds speed rarely matters. Besides which the only movement buff my sovereign gets is a mount, which I can easily replicate by mounting troops. Far more important things to put points in than movement, and I'd take a buff to attack or defence first.
I completely agree with everything Voqar just said.
What does that have to do with anything? We've got wizards and dragons, realism is not on the table.
The fun is greatly diminished when I'm leading troops doing everything, until the time comes to invade someone else. Then I don't, due to the game over mechanic.
It's particuarly bad as a caster sovereign, because that's your most powerful caster and you really shouldn't use them in offensive sieges. With how rare magic is on other units, it takes the "war of magic" out of the game entirely and it becomes "war of maces".
I don't see any situation where telling a gamer not to use their best unit is a good idea or in any way fun. It's terrible.
Eisenhower wasn't his armies strongest wizard, either. Running around to inns finding missing flutes is a pretty lame thing to be doing in the middle of a war.
They need to remove the Organized trait. Even if you made it expensive or if you made other traits better it is still a trait that has no diminishing returns thoughout the entire game.
If you couple Organized with teleport and add in movement it breaks the game. All of your offense can move extermely quickly regardles of unit design. Coupled with Teleport you can rally your entire army for defense as well while moving at obsence speeds around the map. This is even factoring out exploiting multiple amulets and magical items at the moment. It needs to be removed.
Arthur was a terrible King without Merlin, and Merlin wasn't running around in the front lines, either. He was constantly busy, but not fighting.
You're still leading troops doing the same things you were doing before, now you have Generals rampaging through enemy territory. YOUR purpose hasn't changed.
Think outside the box. Your unit is powerful not just because he can cast spells, he can also give the ability to cast spells to other units, giving you a large number of casters of moderate strength. Having 4 moderately powerful casters (hell, even 2) is having considerably more power than having 1 very powerful caster, because they can be in more places at once, and they can cast more times in one turn.
If you spread around his power to a few primary generals, this then makes the Magic Tree infinitely more useful, because it has a number of "Unit Essence Bonus" techs and buildings that add multipliers (that stack like everything else) to every single unit you have that has essence, turning all of those moderately powerful casters into an army of death-wizards.
...and all of this comes about because your Sovereign, instead of being an arrogant, power-hungry fiend, placed his faith in his Generals, and imbued them with his own strength (from a storyline aspect ), which is a major task when you think about it.
Compound that with when your kids grow up and pass essence around to even more Generals, and then contrast that with an enemy who has one really powerful caster with a big army and is up against a bunch of strong armies with really powerful casters. You'd get rocked hard.
This of course goes further into making sure the AI uses these abilities as well, which is a current issue. Without MP, it makes it seem less attractive because the AI is not using it to make it appear more attractive.
Why is it a problem? In order to make any use of the trait, you need a) your sovereign to have a higher move than the troops can reach themselves, and your sovereign leading the stack. You can boost your sovereign's move easy enough, but there's no way I'm aware of to add it's effects to multiple stacks.
Plus if you pursue the warfare tech enough you can increase the base movement for all your units theoretically an infinite number of times.
In the end.The Soverreign I had to use capitals. Is the most important and powerful being In the world. In War he should be at the front. Destroying Armies and turning the tide of wars. It should only be another sovereign that a sovereign is afraid of *well dragons and other mystical creatures too* And eventually sovereigns should gain such power that they are strong enough to even beat down mystical foes and sovereigns should be the primary Focus. Their the Focal Point of all of the Lore and History afterall.
So i can't stand how people don't want them to be the main point...During Beta I thought they'd be making sovereigns progressively more important and i continued to be disappointed.
Because with minimal effort using teleport you can have the benefit in moving massive amounts of troops with little investment other than starting with Organized. Just have a small outpost town somewhere or take over someone’s town and you can instantly reinforce one giant stack that can move at the obscene speeds with your Sovereign.
Think about what this can do early on. You want to go attack someone but if you dare to move troops away from any of your cities the person with 8-10 move speed blasts past and hits your towns. You want to counter-attack them so you press on but they simply teleport their massive stacks of units. Hell, maybe they've even teleported back to their town, gotten reinforcements and now are back in your town. You can never catch them and even if you did any troop types can be cheaply designed without consideration for modifying move speed. You're stuck trying to take down their crazy army that can move impossibly fast while you'll be left to reinforce areas with your default troops move speed.
I may not necessarily be opposed to Organized as a research item high up in the Warfare or another tech tree. It is too powerful to have for the entire game right from the start. The easiest way is to just remove it because without it you're at a huge disadvantage in moving your doom stacks efficently.
This thread reminds me of WoW forums. Please make X ability baseline, we cant dps/heal/tank without it. Then they make X baseline and they jump up to the next ability "Y". Ya know X was nice and all but we also always need to take Y in order to dps/heal/tank.
So when do you stop making things baseline if there will always be that "thing" thats "necessary"?
First, kill the christmas tree sovereigns - those with so much glowing magic things they look more like a christmas tree than a person. Make it impossible to stack items. You only get the effect from one ring of each type, or limit the overall amount of magical items, or both.
Second: I do find organization very useful - useful enough that all my custom sovereigns has it. I don't stack things, though. But still, it's the only way to make it reasonable to do quests and such with escort units, so it is something of a 'must have' skill IMO.
If it is to be nerfed - which would not be that bad an idea - I would rather see it increase the army's move by a maximum of +2. Enough to still be useful, but not enough to be completely weird. Also, it would still be a point to equip the army with speed equipment.
Another options would be to have a type of units - caravans, for instance - provide the same (non-stacking) bonus. (That is a unit that would naturally improve logistics, at least.). That would be better if it was a limited version of organized though.
Anyway,
Haff good war!
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