This is not going to be pretty, and maybe not that profitable in the short-term. I am going to sound harsh, but I do want this to succeed, as I see the potential. This is not intended as a slam on you guys- I hopee you know what I post here well enough, that you know this isn't just me begging or slagging.
Right now: the perception of this game is that it's unplayable, and that buying a Stardock game isn't worth it until at least a year out. That's not good for business.
Solution:
a) Next week, throw some mods on the site. There have been some decent mods made already that help the game out. The mod section needs to be more then just maps.
Get custom MP servers up ASAP after getting MP online. MP will help with the balance, since people will make MP mods to fix balance issues. That might be able to save you some manhours on balancing. If possible, allow for mods to be used on SD servers (work with the mod community on this)
c) Keep up the good work on support overall. I trust you guys fully on that, otherwwise I would be raging at you guys right now.
d) This is the part you might not like. You're going to have to eat short-term profitability on this, in order to help in the long-term.
You'll need to be aggressive on discounting once you can. (I understand you can't right now)
That said, the expansion. It needs to be a stand-alone game, with a bug-free, very generous demo out a month before release. Maybe even full game esque. The burden of proof is right now, (fairly or not), on you guys to prove you can have a solid launch. Showing the world what a year of your support can do for a game will restore your reputation (which is tarnished outside of here right now)
The downside is the fans who stuck it out will feel screwed over a bit, (I'm one of those fans) , but I think most of us would be ok with that , given the circumstances. Maybe give us the expansion at a discount based on when we pre-ordered elemental, or a loyalty bonus on Impulse when we get it? (not DLC, but a credit to use on other things)
e) Learn from your mistakes and don't rush future titles, even if it seems to make business sense at the time. It bites you back tenfold.
I never thought I'd be trying to tell a millionare how to run his business, but I'm trying to look at things from a cold, business side, not my gamer side. As a gamer, I'd be willing to hand over my money- I know I won't regret this ride. However, I know I got a minority opinion, and the Joe Average gamer right now- he's writing you guys off. I'm worried about the long-term damage that could happen, and how it would mean lower budgets for SD titles in the future, and less ambitious future projects- such as GC3. (I am motivated by self-interest here)
Talk about hyperbole, that comment of yours is a classic one. This forum has been pretty solidly constructive in general; far better than any I have seen under such release conditions. Are you actually silly enough to say that if one does not like EWOM then one is 4x hater?? That there is serious flamethrower material. Seriously go spew that kind of nonsense somewhere else. Just because someone has an opinion about something and it happens to conflict with your own idolizing, does not make them a hater or not a fan of the genre.
RAT
No, he's right, there has been some plain flaming towards Stardock going on, but for the most part the community realizes that the game has a few bugs,and are simply trying to give constructive criticism.
But you have an option to get your money back, they aren't saying you can't...stardock is great in that they give refunds....so if you can't afford the 50 dollars then get a refund.
???
You truly baffle me Charon.
I'm am a hardcore devoté of the fantasy TBS genre specifically and 4x games in general. I'd be willing to be that many of the more prolific posters this week (especially those with long lists on bug reports and constructive comments) are also similarly devoted.
How about Stardock completely dropping the ball insofar as their own Gamers Bill of Rights (specifically points 2 and 5) by releasing a half-baked game full of bugs (some of which have been squashed)? And at best a small indie studio level of gameplay depth (bad AI, horrid diplomacy, screwy and weak magic, bland carbon copy units, etc.) yet charging a AAA game price?
Are you claiming that it's *MY FAULT* that I don't like buggy games that are missing many of the promises the developing company offered to us, the buying public?
Worse, are you saying (as you have before) that because Stardock isn't Blizzard that they get an automatic pass? This kind of nonsense has been bandied about quite a bit by the small cadre of angry fanboys this week and it's not sitting well with me. Using your logic, I should accept absolute crap from Spiderweb Software since their games are far cheaper... but they pump out old sk00l, hardcore RPGs that are full of personality and flavor. On the first release.
You really need to get some perspective. The name calling and insults from the small group of very vocal apologists isn't helping one iota. Telling us that we just don't get the game, are obviously not fans of TBS or 4x and the like is a great way to make sure that anything you say is ignored out of hand by all but the few.
Part of the problem here was that the beta testers kindof lied in terms of how things were going. There were way too many 'yes men'. There was almost no beta to speak of, and yet most beta testors still seemed to expect greatness. Here's Denryu's poll from the end of beta. Most people seemed to assume the game would be ready.
https://forums.elementalgame.com/390463/page/1/#2709273
The thing is, I have no idea on what they could have based that opinion. For 6 months the beta was unplayable and had zero content in any case. Right at the end with beta 4 there was something you could actually play, but before we could even discuss it, plans were already in force for an August release.
I guess people kinda fell in love with Elemental's potential, and were careless of the fact that we hadn't really seen any evidence of it living up. I'm sure there were those who just had faith because of Stardock's previous games.
The lesson here is to be extremely wary of the flatterers. Their reputations are not at stake after all.
Which is why you need beta testers willing to not make apologies and report everything wrong even if it seems obvious. Which, in turn, is a lot harder than it sounds. Hard on both the giving and receiving ends.
That's why it bothers me, deeply, when people post that the game is fine and/or that Stardock will surely fix everything. The developers really do need to know when features doesn't work and products aren't acceptable. No, pure flaming doesn't help - but neither does blind faith. Stardock just proved, with Elemental's release, that we cannot trust them with blind faith.
Nor would I care about the entire issue if the core game, the core idea, was crap. Because it isn't. The core is awesome. It's just plain not functioning yet, even when you avoid the crashes and performance issues.
No, you can dislike anything you want. I'm simply saying that I like the game very much. Even in it's imperfect state. I probably would like it less if I was having all the trouble some folks seem to, but apparently I lucked out.
yeah, you started off saying that, but concluded with:
Equating those that didn't like Elemental (for whatever reason) to people that are not "big fans" of 4X games.
While you're saying this, realise that the people who post on these forums are an interesting slice of Elemental's potential customer base - a disproportionate amount of posters will have preordered, a disproportionate amount of posters will have bought this game and lastly a disproportionate amount of posters have followed this game for some time. In other words, as far as slanting the overall impression towards the positive, this poster base is probably as far as you're going to get.
If you perceive this board as hostile to the game, imagine what the broader gaming populace has to say.
I equate a Elemental to an indie film, a little rough around the edges, but with an undeniable charm. Unfortunately, only a small minority appreciate something like that. The general movie going public just wants to be spoon-fed the next Michael Bay Transformer movie.
So you think Elemental falls into the category of 'high art'?
The clown told me to go play SC2 in another thread. I basically ignore everything he has to say at this point.
Hey Charon, how's that foot tasting?
Every time you try to try to defend your love of Elemental, it ends up coming off in the most offensively elitist way possible.
Do you really think so little of the legitimate complaints about this half-assed game?
I *LOVE* indie games, I *LOVE* TBS games and I *LOVE* fantasy games. The combination of all 3 should send me into nerd paroxysms, but Elemental has been a huge letdown. Potential yes, but miserable delivery.
So before you want to start smacking all of us around with your broad brush of elitism, think for a moment... just because I don't share your unbridled love for Elemental, I'm not a lesser person. My voice still deserves to be heard here. And my desire for Stardock to FIX the game isn't somehow invalid.
Beta wasn't really as bad as you think, but once it became obvious that it wouldn't be ready for release people started saying it. Then you started seeing Brad respond with stuff like "it'll be fine, we've heard all this before, you don't know anything about making games."
The release date got locked in, and then they REALLY didn't want to hear it. Is this when the forum gets to collectively say we told you so?
Maybe he was just too invested in it as "his baby" to see what someone from outside could see, I don't know. The rest of the dev team has handled themselves in exemplary fashion since release, and at this point that matters more then how the beta schedule was botched by the lack of a gameplay beta.
No, you haven't lucked out. You just haven't noticed or don't care about all the mechanics in the game which are not working at all or properly and the fact that there is very little balance between the paths and few meaningful choices to make in the game.
My issue isn't with the crash bugs and it sounds like many people agree with me. The problem is the lack of a proper balanced strategy game which interesting choices and various equally valid paths. I actually think the engine is pretty good, the game is the problem.
Civ 5 doing well is not going to kill this game. In fact, it may buy time. Then again, If Civ 5 falls flat, it's an opporunity.
The key is worry about what you can control though, not what you can't, like other games.
Yeah im a big fan of TBS games, I love the fantasy genre and particularly like the 4x style of gameplay. I have been quite disappointed with Elemental so far, and I bought it based on my previous excellent opinion of Stardock from their fine work on Galciv 1 and 2. I am sure many patches will be released over the next several months to polish the game up, but im mainly concerned that some of the flaws in the game seem so fundamental, that they might be beyond the scope of work normally put into game patches.
Btw, props for mentioning Spiderweb Software. I first got into their games with Avernum 3, and Spiderweb have provided me hundreds of hours of RPG fun.
I think over time the trivial pocket change I spent on Elemental will prove a good investment. I was disappointed by the lack of a useful manual (more background story than game mechanics) and a tutorial campaign that wasn't much of a tutorial. But the patch is addressing some of this. I thin eventually this game will shine. And I think Stardock deserves praise for the long term customer service it provides for its games even more than it deserves criticism for releasing the game when it was still for the most part in beta.
Wrong attitude. Stardock needs to know they fudged and for their own good. When people like you keep shouting "hooray, hooray, hooray!" it's hurting Stardock more than helping.
The reason that the forums may have seemed to be filled with a lot of 'yes men' was because any thread that claimed the game was being rushed out the door was locked. It was basically a taboo subject. Personally, I half believed the game was going to be finished based on Brad's remarks that the development build was lightyears ahead of beta 4. Although, the fact that they were locking these kind of threads came across as suspicious and insecure.
This kind of attitude isn't uncommon and it's a bane to the creative process. I think it's ultimately rooted in humankind's remarkable and resilient ability to believe whatever-the-hell-they-want in the face of overwhelming evidence.
In the creative process, when you've worked on something day in and day out, you need really thick skin to face the facts that your work is severely flawed. I know the feeling my self, and I can think of a moment where I felt just like Frog probably did. I've written a few novels and spent untold hours doing so. In one instance, I had spent over 100 hours on a 5 page prologue and began handing it to get some opinions. Now, the problem with giving your creative work to people who like you is that they feel obliged to give you a positive perception on it regardless of how they really feel about it (such is the case with a lot of people on these forums.) Unfortunately, this doesn't help your work. So I got a lot of non-specific "oh, how interesting!" or "Mmm, yeah, that was really good." Though they were just trying to give me confidence, it was extremely counter productive because, as it would turn out, my work really was severely flawed.
So then I thought it was ready to give to some beta readers on a professional writer's forum. Guess what happened? It got panned. Why? Because it read like a lecture and not a novel. What did I do? I assumed that the beta readers were just: jealous/spiteful/amateurs/biased/over-critical/uneducated/gingers. All 15 of them. Deep down inside though, I knew they were right, but just couldn't admit it. When I finally did, it stung really, really badly. But... when I finally fessed up to myself, I realized that the prologue really was misfitting and in some ways, even just bad. So I wrote a much, much more appopriate one that the critics liked. The old prologue didn't even go to waste. I chopped up the prior one, ditched some parts and sprinkled the rest of the relevent aspects around the rest of the novel at appropriate places. And when I finally did get it right after my self-confession, I felt damned good.
How about you shut up? That might be nice. Don't tell me wrong attitude, are you my mother? I didn't say hooray hooray anywhere actually. You obviously can't understand what I am trying to say. There are issues with the game but coming in here and whining without offering any kind of constructive criticism or how to make the game better is only showing yourself to be a troll. That goes for the rest of you that do the same thing. If, like Arstal, you are trying to offer suggestions, ideas, etc to better the game than your posts have a place here regardless of if they are good ideas or not. Unlike you, I am in the chat room everyday talking to the devs and other players, coming up with ideas, not to mention I am constantly modding the game. I bet half of the people complaining didn't even buy the game. We had one person come into chat and he was complaining about the problems with the games and how much he knew and it turned out he didn't even buy the game. So unless you are offering something other than negative complaining, just don't post. The state of the game, as it is now, happened, so yes I would say get over it because no matter how much complaining you do, it wont change anything. SD is looking for ideas, for answers to their problems, not more bi###### from you.
Hi Astral,
I've been working int he videogame industry for about 5 years now. And I have to say that everytime I read a post of this flavour I now have to fight back the chuckling. Be it for people claiming they should have waited to release the game for more tweaking or those who say they should do a "zero bug release".
Fixing bugs isn't as easy as everyone seems to think it is, the more variables a game/problem has the harder it gets to fixing it without affecting anything related. At some point you have to weight the costs of attempting to fix something, if it has the potential of breaking down something else. Having worked with small to large publishers, the rule of thumb is that THERE WILL BE BUGS in ANY released game. That being said, obviously the severity of these issues will vary, but there is no such thing as a "bug free" game. Well, to be fair, complexity does factor in.
It's very easy to sit back and look at Elemental and 'fantasize' about how you would have done things or what changes you would have made, but it's a little out of touch with reality since we aren't privy to commercial arrangements, obligations, deadlines, and what not. Also, I don't want to say that SD is a small dev/publisher, but in any case, they don't have infinite amounts of money to throw around, I'm sure of that. So at some point a line needs to be drawn in the sand, and they have to stick with it. They most likely have little leisure as to when to specifically release the game, numerous factors, invisible to consumers, are the driving force behind a game's release. Some of which are out of SD's control in some instances.
The face of the gaming industry is rapidly changing, what happened to the movie industry is translating to games as well. Publishers / investors are all about the money, and don't want to finance 'risky' projects, they want more first person shooters or sequels of successful games in order to qualm any investor worries. So Strategy games and ESPECIALLY TBS games (Almost a "dying genre"), will not be receiving the largest amounts of support and money. So I'm more grateful than anything that a game of this magnitude was even released.
Now, yes... there are some pretty glaring issues that we've all noticed. That being said, it's something that was to be expected. Not to make excuses but whoever found this game's release contained too many bugs... Go have a look at Hearts of Iron 3 release. That was beyond catastrophic, and it's patching recently got it to a ok state. (1+ year after release). This ties in a bit to what I just said in the previous paragraph. True TBS fans hunger grows, as it's to be expected, so we want this epic TBS game with loads of features and witty mechanics, but we have to be realistic with the ramifications of such an undertaking.
From what I mostly read in posts, broken features, balancing / AI tweaks are pretty much the main things that need to be looked at. And from reading the Dev Journals, I am very confident that most of the major exploits, lack of AI, etc.. will be fixed very shortly. In an ideal world, the game would have been released in a better state, but in my book, it's almost a miracle it was even released. So I try to rejoice myself in that aspect.
Gimme the MP severs!
Regards,
V.
Okay, here we go. First off, you probably understand that growling at someone to shut up begs them to say the same thing back. Very mature. Second, you tell people to "not go crazy" then use intentionally inflamatory words to goad them. Nice. Accusing people of whining is an ironically juvenille way of discrediting their comments on the grounds that they are... juvenille. Clever. Granted, I normally don't accuse people of having wrong attitudes (which I appologize for), but people who use the term "whine" set me off very quickly because it's a very uncreative and childish way to write off someone's criticisms which may be very valuable. And yes, even though you claim that positive ciriticism is the only good criticism, negative criticism is important if it is constructive. If you never get negative criticism, you will make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Bad negative criticism is the kind that is non-descript... the kind of negative criticism you give people, for instance. "You are a whiner." "You should just shut up." "You are a complainer."
To the contrary of your accusations, my remarks are to help Elemental, not to tear it down. What you are doing is essentially making excuses for Elemental and Stardock, which will neither help the game nor SD's commercial viability. I am also an experienced modder. I've already begun to mod the game and I've already volunteered on larger modding projects. I also have a reasonable amount of karma... which means I've been on these boards since the project began offering feedback and watching developments.
EDIT: Okay Rainz, I don't want us to derail this thread. I'm sorry for saying that you had the "wrong attitude." Let's just move on.
Are you simply mistaken or making up things to try to make some point? The threads that were being locked were the ones that evolved into full fledged flame fests. Like this one, which desperately needs a lock as well.
Seriously, there have only been a handful of threads locked. Plenty of critical posts remain open. Look around, you'll find them easily enough.
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