This is something I've mentioned before. And I'm going to mention it now.
At the moment, cities are factories and warehouses. They hold no value other than doing fancy things with resources, and sometimes they are useful for defending a location (IE, a high defense city on a land bridge).
What does that mean? It means that unless cities are being used for something (war) they are utterly worthless. We have a bunch of citizens who spend their days twiddling their thumbs, eating fishsticks, and dancing the macarena. If you want to do anything else (pursue peace) then you have cities that sit around and do absolutely nothing.
That doesn't sound too bad, right? Think about it like this - you are sitting next to Capitar and Pariden. You've all been fighting against a massive incursion of Fallen, and the war has ended. Capitar and Pariden both like you, and they like each other, so you guys are friends. The Fallen are recuperating, you and your allies are recuperating.
Which means you get to spend turns doing absolutely nothing but waiting, building up soldiers, and preparing for war. Again. In short, it means that if you aren't fighting, you are constantly clicking 'end turn' to improve research, until you decide to tear apart your allies, or until the Fallen lay siege to you and your friends again.
To me, this is BORING. It means that the only time you can do something productive is when you are leading soldiers. Cities are relegated to holding troops, making troops, and doing fun filled stuff with research. I'd love to see this remedied...but how? Well, I have a few ideas.
As an example...House Mulvar (Warlike, Arrogant, Strong) is a family that seeks to prove their superiority through combat. They know that they are better than anyone else, and their actions - swift, strong, and decisive - shows their preferences. Children of House Mulvar gain +4 strength (Strong), -2 Charisma, Intelligence (Arrogant), and +2 to Constitution, Strength, and Dexterity (Warlike).
House Drae (Political, Lustful, Knowledgeable) is another family, which holds pride in having been able to assert their bloodline even through the Cataclysm. Their members have been gathering lore for decades, and categorizing what they can. After so much time spent gathering knowledge, they believe themselves better than everyone else, but lust for more - both knowledge and power. Children of Drae gain +4 Charisma (Political), -2 Strength, Constitution (Lustful), and +2 to Intelligence, Essence (0 normally, only gains 2 if favored by Imbue Champion), and produce 1 research/turn.
These two houses would sometimes conflict - strong and knowledgeable are opposites in this case (-3). Mulvar is naturally going to have problems with other factions because of its arrogance (-1) and any faction that is more powerful than Drae will be natural enemies (-2). Because Mulvar favors combat, and Drae politics, they will only gain anything through that if Drae is doing something warlike. So at the moment, we have a -6. Thus, these two are probably going to fight each other. Frequently.
If you have the support of Mulvar, their Warlike nature will net you the option to increase training speed, while also netting you extra soldieres to defend a city. Further, because of their Strong history, Mulvar champions are going to be stronger fighters out the door.
Drae, on the other hand, is more passive. As politicians, they would aid you by helping you make allies of your nobles. Because of all the power the Sovereign has, however, they will look at you as a being of power - power they want. Drae champions would be great for increasing the income of all research.
Good ideas. I'm working on a way to implement taxation right now with a little CityHubs mod. No idea how to base it on population without being able to implement equations though, that's kinda a stumbling block some of us have run into. I was thinking of changing the tax office to grant +10% to trade or something (in addition to a +1 bonus).
I really like the idea of minor "houses" existing without our factions. They can be easily implemented via minor factions (or possibly nerfed factions) but won't be perfect.
Good stuff, exactly what I was clamoring for throughout Beta as far as making Elemental have a 'Living World.' The best description of this was from Stardock when they said the kingdoms we build should feel like the Kingdom you might adventure through in a traditional RPG. Right now that isn't the case because there isn't much going on.
This is one of the key areas I hope to be able to mod, but we shall see...might not be possible to get things the way I want them without some major overhauls.
Great post. I have only invested a few hours into the game, but it became apparent quite early that cities were useless outside of resource generation and troop training. Once there is peace, my cities shift to neutral as they lose their purpose.
Exactly.
Has anyone played the space strategy game 'Distant Worlds?'
http://codeforce.co.nz/
Some great ideas in that game, although they lack development. That game is one of the first I have ever seen to actually model a private sector economy. The AI automatically develops transport ships, mining ships, mining bases, and things like that and builds up a private economy. Very cool, wish the game had more like that going on.
I think Elemental could really benefit from this. We have thrown these same ideas around in many threads. I think we can do some of what we are talking about with mods. It would be very cool if, when you get the Guilds tech, an NPC asks you for help forming a Guild. If you agree to do so, you need to build the right building or complete some other tasks. Then that Guild will begin to operate in your territory. If it is an Adventurers Guild it could generate new NPCs or quests. If it is a Mining Guild, it could generate profits, miners that need to be protected, new quests, etc. Much of this could be done with the quest system...I hope.
Good post. I have to agree, cities are no fun at all at the moment. The system of noble houses you describe is something that I thought would be in the game in some form, as Frogboy used to talk about a vassal system, and having to devide your empire once it grew to big to efficiently handle.
As long as there isn't any indication that the dev's are looking into this, I'm thinking of doing a mod to make cities more interesting. I would like to see some of the things you mention here implemented, one way or another.
It doesn't even need to be something horridly complex. The majority of functions would come in the form of random events and being able to shat up your nobles. I mean, gods, imagine having to fight off interior demons as well as exterior ones.
Some other features that came to mind...
As to how to handle it...I would personally prefer to have houses randomly generated. This way, each game, you won't risk being pinned with the same noble family as before. The actual methods are to simply make a random name, and fit the noble house with three things, each a part of an AI package. Families will have an overrulling VALUE (Mulvar valued Strength, Drae favored Knowledge) that defines their actions. House Mulvar will make it a point to become stronger, while Drae will constantly seek to amass knowledge. These are done in a circle - some values blend well, some are total opposites.
Next, families will have a NATURE (Mulvar was warlike, Drae was political) that defines exactly how the families function, and the bulk of their AI package. Mulvar is very direct, and will favor overpowering force, while Drae will instead use higher tactics and long-term goals. These natures also define how each family does life. Mulvar will frequently pick fights with other houses, often quickly and without provocation (say, at -2 disposition) while Drae will require a lot to actually act against an enemy...in an obvious manner (-3 for covert, -5 to actually do something obvious).
Finally, each noble family has a FAILING (Mulvar was arrogant, Drae lustful) which is the overall 'fatal flaw'. Mulvar, while favoring overwhelming tactics, will put everything into a single attack, and should that attack fail, Mulvar will be immensely weak for a period of time. Drae would take its time, usually destroying the enemy in quieter ways.
Now, because that sounds like it's a lot of work, let me put it in game terms. You are at war with randomfactionnamehere, and they have 1 city that's near one of your vassals. If the vassal was Mulvar, they'd send 90% of their troops to take out the city - they'll win and take it, or lose and be extremely vulnerable. Drae, on the other hand, would bulk up defenses, and quickly try to take out any resources tied to the city.
Regarding House Strength - each house will have a few stats tied to it: wealth, political power, and military power. Wealth is determined by your faction as a whole (If the faction has great wealth, so will the nobles) and by cities each noble has. Political power is fairly random, increased by each action the specific house takes that are successful (more on this in a sec). Military power is directly tied to the other two, as well as the combat rating of all members of the house.
Nobles are able to pose quests to the Sovereign, which is fine and dandy. But every X turns, the Council of Nobles will assemble. Each house will be able to propose one or two things, which are time locked (so you won't be peppered with the same thing every two turns). Houses will make comments on the things they propose - either support, indifference, or downright denial. You are welcome to abstain (they vote then) or make a comment, overrulling all of them. If matters brought up pass, that family gains X political power. Political power is like the political version of diplomatic capital - those with high polpower are able to sway votes.
How this translates to the game: politicial power is also a determining factor in danger a house represents. If a house has high political power and likes you, you have a great ally, as allied houses can turn enemies against each other, even quelling possible uprisings, coups, and civil wars. Likewise, if you have pissed off a politically strong house, they will be in a fine position to twist your empire to their own needs, and will make it a point to hurt you if they can.
So if you are threatened by another house, you might deny their proposition in the Council of Nobles just to weaken their power...even if the proposition is really something you want. Likewise, you might not care about a proposition, but because the house is your ally, try to support them.
Yes, the OP is on the right track. As of now, the I feel no connection to my cities. In Master of Magic I could remembered pretty much all of my city names--- and that isn't just because they weren't named Urbeshrebeknak like they are in Elemental. They were placed in meaningful places in the landscape and organically fit in to certain niches.
Alot of topics about city building lately. Here is one by Progress check it out - we need all the ideas we can get out there! https://forums.elementalgame.com/393581
There are alot of good ideas in this thread but some seem unreachable in the near future and some seem like easy fixes. Let's narrow it down to something that maybe is more reasonable for the dev team?
I also agree how I have no connection to my cities. I have complained about how I feel like I just plop cities down only to claim resources. And building structures is just a time sink since each building will eventually be built anyways. I radically thought why not just eliminate building structures if everything has to built anyways? Least give us the option to build duplicate buildings to specialize cities atleast. Right now it just seems to easy to city build and spam.
Overall city building seems too easy. No unrest, no revolts, no strife - way too easy
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