Disclaimer: I'm writing this post as neutral as I know how. It's not a disrespect of the developers - merely a list of issues (both large and small) based on my short time with the game so far. I have ONLY played through a portion of the campaign so far - haven't even looked at the "actual" game. These are legitimate concerns / issues with the game (from my POV) - I'm not sitting up at 3:00am for the fun of it. If you don't agree with something I've said: that is your prerogative; don't start attacking me because Stardock is your bestest of buddies.
How about we start at campaign?
CAMPAIGN MAP PRESENTATION:
The campaign was designed to get players into the game and familiar with the core mechanics and basic gameplay. So far it has failed in both respects. The opening cutscene was fine, not amazing or anything but it did its job well enough. The problems arise as soon as the player is given control over his character:
TACTICAL MAP PRESENTATION:
The tactical maps, and how to even GET to a battle on a tactical map are not explained in any way:
If I was new to the TBS genre I WOULD BE COMPLETELY lost. There is a very good chance I would abandon the game out of pure frustration / confusion. Even I was lost at times - not about the game play but what the actual campaign wanted from me. A tutorial itself should never confuse the player because then they're confused on two fronts: how the game works, and how to progress the tutorial.
I think that is enough talk about the campaign presentation. Again my experience has only been with the campaign, but now I will talk strictly about the game mechanics, features, etc.
TACTICAL MAPS:
There are a large number of issues with the tactical maps:
STRATEGIC MAP:
The strategic maps are probably the most polished aspect of the entire game:
PRODUCTION VALUES:
I guess a large portion of the budget when into developing the platform / (pretty) textures, models and modding tools (and yes, the core tech):
PERFORMANCE & BUGS:
EQUIPMENT BALANCE:
MODDING:
Well, it's not 4:14 am. You'll notice that large aspects of the game have been left out (research, diplomacy, etc) - like I said, I've only been playing the campaign. The game has great promise and I wish it to succeed in all possible ways (obviously since I paid for it). I wish the developers the best of luck and look forward to what they come up with. Hopefully my post hasn't been too ranty of everyone's taste and will be of some help.
The game needs tutorial, (that would address more than 50% of your concerns), however they could not do tutorial, because the game design is still in flux, like building improvements by clicking resource was finalized like what? 3 weeks ago or less?
And for those who saying that "day 0 patch will fix most of it" no it will not. These are the same people who were saying "oh the game is miles ahead from beta and everything will be sorted out at release". They have NO idea how difficult to polish a game (or any program for that matter), how long and time consuming this process is.
I do believe that Stardock will fix and improve significantly in the nearest months, but we are talking about MONTHS people, not days. So we need some patience here, and feedback, honest feedback. This is crucial for them at this point. Because to catch all those little things, and balance the game is HUGE AND LENGTHY process.
So, beta testers, just treat the game as beta 6 (this is what really it is, judging by the game), roll up your sleeves and back to work. I am sure SD is not resting, so we should not slack either.
There's nothing wrong with this point of view Some people like finding and reporting bugs and issues, others just like not worrying about it and playing the game. As you're one who wants the latter (I myself was a beta tester, so I don't particularly mind personally), I'd definitely recommend you wait for a few patches and then check it out.
Remember also that the forum isn't only filled with rabid fanboys There are plenty of people (myself included) that can and will give you honest responses about the state of the game if you leave a post to ask
This.
Be constructive.
Also, I'd like to point out that many here seem to have missed the pdf manual. It doesn't explain a whole lot of things, but it does cover some basics.
I agree with quite a few of the points you've listed here. Well, not all of them (the archers missing the dragons don't bother me if they're low-level archers with a basic training), but overall this is good and constructive (if harsh) criticism.
I have experienced most of the issues that he original poster lists; if he wasn't a beta tester, Stardock should consider making him a tester for their next release.
As an owner of the GalCiv 2 series, I am confident that Stardock will continue to work hard to fix and improve the game with patches and updates well after the initial release.
That being said, I think I share what appears to be the greatest concern from the original post: too much of the process of learning the game is left to trial and error. As an experienced TBS player, the learning curve hasn't been too rough because, in a manner of speaking, I already "know what to look for". The mechanics of Elemental do not stray far from the conventions of the genre, but like any game with this level of complexity, a working knowledge of those mechanics is essential, as is having access to something that will provide detailed information regarding those mechanics.
In this respect, Elemental is lacking, so much so that I believe some people will simply give up on the game. Even without referencing the excellent knowledge-base tools of other games from other developers, Elemental's documentation pales in comparison to one of Stardock's own products, Galactic Civlizations 2.
On another note--and it really hurts me to say this--the campaign is really quite poor. I'm sure some people worked really hard on it with the hope that someone would enjoy it, but it's very linear and bland, nothing more than a string of consecutive and very simple missions leading up to a very anti-climactic battle. The campaign uses so very few of the options available in the sandbox mode that it might as well be a different game. There's no need to make any improvements to your cities, save for the purpose building units; your cities never come under attack; and you only need to maintain a single army controlled by your hero tho travel from Point A to Point B to engage in all-too-easy battles. The campaign even tries to force you to split your units into two armies for a two-pronged approach leading up to the final battle, but it's completely unnecessary, as evidenced by that fact that I did NOT do this and was still able to successfully complete the campaign.
All told, I still think Stardock has a good game on their hands, and I expect that it will continue to improve. Forget about playing the campaign; playing a few quick games against the AI so that you can figure how the game works would be a better way to spend your time.
Oh I don't like finding and reporting bugs unless it's a project I'm working on. But I figured since I've already invested into the game, the only logical thing to do is attempt to help it grow and mature.
Hopefully the devs get a chance to read my points (as well as the responses) before the thread is buried by the wave of newcomers.
In the past Brad has addressed some of these criticisms with "the game isn't done" but I would be interested to see what he has to say now. I criticized how he also promised the game earlier than it was actually released (but no one seems to remember any of those earlier comments and I was flamed for mine) but how do we feel about his promises for a "more complete game"?
I'm not saying Elemental is a bad game or that I regret buying it! After playing Gal Civ II and seeing what an awesome game it is and how similar Elemental is with the same sort of clunky interface, I'm willing to just say "Stardock makes great games that aren't all that accessible" -- but I think we all need to remove the blinders and admit Elemental has its fair share of problems and it may NEVER be accessible.
Not unless Stardock decides to focus on the user, that is.
I Forgot to mention this earlier: balance. Not of the units but that of the equipment. Also a comment on unit training time. Both things have been added to the OP.
The game's not finished. It doesn't feel like it's out of beta yet.
Though this isn't the 0-day release.
I'm not going to even try the campaign intill the Day 0 patch. When I get home I'm going to run a regular game to learn it (and expereance the changes from Beta 4)
I never read manuals or use tutorials, unless absolutly necissary. That being said, a tutorial covering the basics should be pretty common place. This games controls seem pretty standard to me and I personaly wouldn't use the tutorial if it was there. I'm more concerned with the game crashing on exit, and the sluggish behavior in general. It also seems to be getting more sluggish the longer you play, memory leak?
At this point I'm probably just going to come back in a month and hope the game has been smoothed out.
Agreed.
What I find most beneficial are the "Things I wish I had known" threads that get started. It's in those threads where experienced players can find out the true nuances of the game without spending the time in the tutorials or manuals that probably won't cover that information anyways.
Point is players who purchase the game shouldn't be forced to check the forums in order to figure out how to play the game they've just purchased.
Yeah like me. )
There are very few games where that hasn't been applicable.
No matter how well done the tutorial or manual is, there is always going to be better information on the forums. There's always some useful nugget of information that helps out in better understanding the game.
I'm not disagreeing with the argument that Elemental's manual or tutorial/campaign can be improved but keep in mind that many people find the information in those trivial. At some level games share concepts, it's just finding out the differences in how those concepts are implemented and/or best applied. Some people just need the cliff notes version.
I'm curious if developers have had a chance to check out this thread or not - I know they're busy making preparations and all for the "official" release but I truely believe the points made here will help improve the game (and I'd like to think that I didn't stay up to 4:30am for nothing).
You were up to 4:30 am playing this too?
Well, up to ~3:15am playing the game, then debating on whether or not I should make this topic (I had to wake up at 9:00 am).
What the OP describes has been my issue with Elemental since pre-ordering it ages ago. I've dabbled in the beta repeatedly and lasted no more than 10 minutes each time. Why? Because I have no clue what to do, ever, and figuring out how to do even simple tasks that I think I should be doing is a royal pain.
I was going to write a bunch of stuff but I'll keep it short. I'm at one with PCs and software. I've been a programmer, general computer person, and hardcore gamer for 20+ years. I can usually figure out anything quickly.
With Elemental, it's almost like the game and UI are intentionally designed to be as confusing and unintuitive as possible. It's almost uncanny how nonstandard and off everything feels.
Little stuff throws me, like ESC key behavior. Or how when you hover over something, there isn't a tooltip like there is in everything else these days, but instead summary info is displayed somewhere that you wouldn't expect if it's shown. When most games use tooltips and your eye is expecting tooltips, other forms of status/hover text throw you off. There's also no noticeable notification of anything happening (unit done, building complete) that I've noticed (no slick notification icons each turn like GalCiv2 has that take you right to critical events, which Civ 5 is also using, because it freaking rocks).
I don't need to be spoon fed or anything - I've figured out all kinds of screwy games over the decades. But maybe I am spoiled by the fact that 99% of games today have slick UIs and presentation that lends itself to playing the game. Most games these days you don't even need a manual because everything just flows so well you can hop right in OR everything you need to know is IN the game, either thru built-in docs, tooltip help, or whatever.
That's a mini game in the game, it's trying to understand how it is working .There should be a prize for the first one to solve the mystery !
Very true. Games and software generally, should have clean and easy to use UIs. I can't imagine playing Civ4 without the BUG mod for example, because it adds so much information to the game screens. It makes me wonder why it's not standard. Same for various paradox titles with the alert settings and notifications and all that.
These types of things (especially the customizable ones!) are so freaking obvious to me, and such low hanging fruit to add in that it boggles me when new titles don't do them. Hell there was some game I tried a while back that had ZERO hotkeys... Are you kidding me? The dev said 'well I don't like hot keys'. Ehh? And I didn't like your game because while it was a very cool concept it was a pain in the ass to play.
So, how much modability of the UI is there in elemental? Because this is not an isolated complaint.
So...I'm seeing a disturbing trend on these pages....if you tend to like the game you are labeled as a fanboy(how mature is that?)
Apparently all that can be done at the moment is graphical changes (to existing content)... I have no idea to what extent.
Creating brand new elements are not possible atm - they probably depend upon Python support - no idea how much of the game will be moddable in the end. Hopefully everything (a dreamer's dream) .
The only people being labeled as fanboys are people who are flamming those who post constructive criticism - claiming that we shouldn't be "negative" or something.
Agreed, I had same issue with GalCiv 2. Not huge problems, just small annoyances. Game is very enjoyable though.
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