I know these forums are inhabited by even the most hardened of Stardock fans, and i am one too. But if you love something you can't be blind to criticize it. Already we have a thread saying don't complain so I know how this thread will turn out but i'm really hoping for an actual dialogue that won't be met with rampant fanboyism.
Anyway I just read this article and while I know there is a zero day patch coming, i'm a little worried about exactly HOW much they fixed in such a short amount of time. It seems like there are a lot of bugs/typos/mistakes and I think as a paying customer it's okay to say this.
A note from Frogboy on this
Hi guys,
Let me add some points here:
1. Tom Chick is one of the top gaming journalists in the industry. He's not just some guy.
2. He is reviewing the gold version (he is NOT playing the day 0 version). I.e. He is NOT playing a beta.
3. While I would quibble with some of the content (yes, we multiply bonuses. We multiplied them in Entrepreneur, we multiplied them in GalCiv, and we multiply them in Elemental and have throughout the beta).
4. I agree with Tom that the Hiergamenon page should make it more clear that those bonuses are being multiplied and that there is a text bug in the description of Educated that was since addressed.
5. The math system under the hood does work as designed, even in the gold version. It's not buggy but I think Tom brings up a valid point that the way it is explained to the player needs work (I think Tom would also agree it's light years ahead of how we "explained" the math in GalCiv II which was, essentially we didn't).
6. This isn't a review, it's a diary. Please read Tom's other works. It doesn't mean he hates the game. He is pointing things out that he thinks can be improved in the game and we can all benefit from it.
Anyway here is the article and some snippets:
http://fidgit.com/archives/2010/08/elemental_in_a_world_of_dragon.php I'm trying to like Elemental. I really am. But the version I have now, and the version you're probably going to get to start playing tomorrow if you pre-ordered, is in pretty sad shape. A patch should be available by Monday. I hope it's a big patch. My problem isn't just the way Elemental assumes you know things you would have no way of knowing, or the amateurish mistakes in the interface, or the crashes, or how alt-tabbing kills the game, or the way the Farming Guild increases metal production by 100%, or that I didn't get the leather armor I was promised when I researched it, or even this picture of the dreaded Umberdroth Pack, which either has cloaking technology or is so skinny it can hide behind a palm tree. Actually, maybe the Umberdroth Pack is the palm trees. I suppose there's no reason you can't have a tropical ent. All those things are frustrating enough. But I'm a bit worried that I simply can't trust the game to do what it says it's doing.
http://fidgit.com/archives/2010/08/elemental_in_a_world_of_dragon.php
I'm trying to like Elemental. I really am. But the version I have now, and the version you're probably going to get to start playing tomorrow if you pre-ordered, is in pretty sad shape. A patch should be available by Monday. I hope it's a big patch.
My problem isn't just the way Elemental assumes you know things you would have no way of knowing, or the amateurish mistakes in the interface, or the crashes, or how alt-tabbing kills the game, or the way the Farming Guild increases metal production by 100%, or that I didn't get the leather armor I was promised when I researched it, or even this picture of the dreaded Umberdroth Pack, which either has cloaking technology or is so skinny it can hide behind a palm tree.
Actually, maybe the Umberdroth Pack is the palm trees. I suppose there's no reason you can't have a tropical ent.
All those things are frustrating enough. But I'm a bit worried that I simply can't trust the game to do what it says it's doing.
All I ask is for you guys to just read this and not to flip out on me for criticizing or worrying about the game or wondering exactly HOW much this zero-day patch is going to fix.
Strong words from any developer. Very good to hear, Brad, very good to hear indeed.
I don't really read reviews. I haven't since the early 90s with any regularity. I found too often that I enjoyed a game with low ratings on reviews or on a few occasions didn't like a game with GotY scores. It doesn't mean the reviewers are wrong, but they were obviously not looking at the same qualities I look for in a game. For instance trying to find a reviewer talking about the AI in SC2 for more than one sentence was near impossible.
I'm not worried.
This, as pointed out earlier, isn't a review, so at least let the dude make a review before it gets trashed.
Reassuring. I probably worry too much. I so much want this game to become as good as the game I imagined when this was first announced. I also feel like you deserve to be recognized along the Meiers and Sawyers and Wrights, I hope Elemental will make this happen.
As a former reviewer, I'll agree with Tom and Brad that we need to clean up descriptions on the Hiergamenon so that gamers who are figuring this stuff out in detail are satisfied. After all, many people (myself included to a degree) like to play the "numbers game."
That said, purely as a life-long strategy gamer, none of what was mentioned equates to critical flaws or makes the game unplayable. You still get enough detail on the overall picture of resources (both globally and per settlement) to know what's going on and to make valid strategic decisions. This info will only get better with updates (probably rather quickly now), of which Stardock is well known.
End point - Stardock supports its internally developed games better than any other company out there that isn't making an MMO (and some that do). Our track record of free updates - not just bug fixes but content additions - is insanely good. Anyone who purchases Elemental will have a great experience that will only get better in the days, weeks and months to come.
Anyone who has read some of my previous posts know that I've been somewhat more pessimistic about whether this game would be ready for release. With that being said, now that I actually go and read the article that has created so much of a stir, it's really not that awful. He actually says a few positive things about the game too, and his primary complaints appear to be simply a matter of poor documentation rather then game bugs. I'm more worried about seeing bigger AI and gameplay problems, things that will take months to fix, then I am about seeing little documentation and naming problems which can be fixed in a few days. My only concern is if all these little obvious and easy to fix problems that made it in herald the existance of other bigger problems as well.
Bribe Money in action folks...LoL
J/K chief
I think if Stardock developed, instead of published, Demigod I would still be playing it. If Stardock developed Demigod, it wouldn't be like the Demigod today.
- Othello
There is no doubt - the game is confusing when you start playing it and has very steep learning curve. Back when I started with Beta, It took me good 4+ hours playing to figure out how things work, and I am gamer with decade+ of experience. Interface, resource system, building, combat system - they are not at all intuitive, but they are learn-able. Some of it could have been solved by in-game tutorial or starter campaign where game walks you through all systems. Some of it could be improved with better interface design.
If you are worried about bad experiences with the game, wait until after 1-month patch released. I have no doubt that Elemental will be patched and end up enjoyable experience at some near future.
By the way I agree.....space is boring. That doesn't mean that space games are boring or anything like that, just that space as a geographic feature is by it's very nature kind of big and empty. That's why most space games just have you move between solar systems rather then moving around space by space through the empty void....because there aren't any exciting things to find or terrain features to run into. But in a game like Elemental or Civlization with stuff to explore and fun things to find, that space by space movement is much more interesting and exciting.
Ok...here's the proof Brad is in the office (or at least logged on from home)...so that means the game should be here soon, right? Man i have less patience today than my toddler son..........
Well here's some of Stardock's Metacritic scores:
GalCiv I: 83
GalCiv I Altarian Prophecy: 77
GalCiv II: 86
GalCiv II Dark Avatar: 91
GalCiv II Twilight: 92
Political Machine: 72
Corporate Machine: 80
Where will Elemental fit in this mix...
What's green and orange and goes 100mph?
Frogboy on pre-release day!
I totally agree. On this Sunday morning, trying out the latest version offered on Impulse, it took me too much time to figure out how to cast a city-enchantment spell. My Sovereign had the required mana and had researched the spell : it was the procedure I had to follow to cast the spell that was "not at all intuitive" and way too much complicated.
The manual does not go into the operational details on how to effectively execute gameplay actions. I found there no hint whatsoever on how to cast a strategic spell after having selected the Sovereign.
Such types of procedures must be very obvious to the experienced developers and beta-testers, but as the quoted poster states, "they are not at all intuitive".
I wonder how some of the new players, in the coming days, will figure out how to cast a city-enchantment spell. In my case, when I finally pressed the button to cast the spell on the city, the mouse-cursor only became green on one of the many city-squares : all the other squares appeared as red, and the spell could not be cast! I had to hunt for the proper square, on the map, within the city, to be allowed to cast the enchantment. I wonder why any of the city-squares would not have been sufficient, to expedite the action in a simple manner.
I perhaps missed something that would have been obvious to the experienced testers, but the quoted poster's point nonetheless remains valid, especially in what concerns the new players, in the upcoming days and weeks, who are not beta-testers and "gamer[s] with decade+ of experience".
Hey Frogboy, I am the person that made this topic and I am wondering if you could answer just one of the main questions for me? I really appreciate you coming in here and addressing the subject by the way. I respect a team that stands by their work no matter what:
My question is this. How much improvement/bug fixes are there from the gold to "in-between version" and how much improvement/bug fixes are there fromt he gold to day 0 patch version?
Thank you again!
Well Tom didn't really mention "bugs" in his article but rather disliked the presentation of data (which I agree with).
Some of the issues he discussed (for instance, the Umberdroth Den not being scary enough in its image) are addressed in the version players will get today.
Still I think that iterating one more time in the beta cycle had done the release version some good. Actually the whole polishing thing was done by Stardock and while I'm thinking the day-0 Version will be fun to play I also assume that for my quality standards the 30-day patch version will be what I would expect on release date. But with Civ-5 in mind a release next week was still the right decision.
Can't wait for tomorrow evening (CET)...
The answer is a lot. they haven't been just sitting on their hands since it went gold, they have been working hard to squash the remaining bugs and polish it.
Thanks again! You rock. Alright time to continue refreshing everything like mad and praying that the sales@stardock.com person was right about them getting me preorder even though I never received a confirmation email. Hehe
or the crashes, or how alt-tabbing kills the game
I'm more worried about that. The 2 big issues I had with the beta builds were the x64 ati memory leaks and alt-tab crashes. Both made it pretty much unplayable for me, mem leaks and crashes meant I could play the game for a grand 3-5 mins on a lucky day. Amazingly enough, these issues persisted through every version of the beta. I know they claimed to have fixed it, but it is disappointing to see the gold version still having stability issues.
I personally don't care much about the additive or multiplicative math involved, sure its a little obscure, but once you look at the numbers you can figure out its one or the other. Key thing is, the math is consistent throughout. Day 0 patches for balance issues and feature tweaks are great and appreciated, but leaving key stability fixes for the last moment is just asking for trouble. Empire total war comes to mind, it was such a charlie foxtrot on release, that I ended up uninstalling the game and refusing to buy any of CA's crap again.
Another minor gripe is you cant edge scroll with a dual monitor setup. Not a big loss, just these rough edges are easy enough to smooth that they shouldn't exist to begin with. We'll know in a few hours either way, gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best.
I have the utmost respect for you and Stardock, mr frogboy sir.
But i must object with your first point about him being more than just some guy, because he's one of the "top gaming journalists".. EVERYONE is just some guy, every single reviewer, game journalist or random guy on the street talking about a game, are the same.They are all exactly the same, and they all give exactly the same thing, their own PERSONAL opinion on the topic, with more or less objective points.
To idolize or to, in any way what so ever, claim that one reviewers word is worth more than anyone elses, is a fool's errand.I'm sure you didnt mean it that way, but it sounded like it.
I dont care if he's paid by a website or magazine, his opinion and written or spoken word about a product (game, movie or music) is worth no more (or less) than any random joe on the street or the forums. So yes, he is just some guy.
The people who pay him to review games disagree...any random joe on the street or forums is unlikely to be paid for their opinion.
I might also add most people pay a lot more attention to a professional reviewer than any random user wherever.
You think a person's level of expertise or experience doesn't matter?
If someone has been playing strategy games for 20 years, wouldn't you trust their opinion more than a guy who has never played one before? If a reviewer has a degree in mathematics, would his or her opinion on the stats and balance of a game not be worth more than someone who is awful at math?
Im not a super fan of this game (rather play MoM) but there are some super fine points people need to be aware of.
1. Passionate developers- They will no doubt stay on this game and provide the people what they want. Ive been a beta player and ive seen them add so much in a short period.
2. Modders- IF you hate the skins or the races or whatever thank to the modding tools many worlds can be recreated using this engine.
If i dont like the Launch im sure in 3-5 months this game will rock. Just hope its received well to the public.
Tom Chick has been a friend of mine for over a decade. I take his views very seriously. If someone wants to just cast him off as "some guy" it would be, IMO, their loss.
People need to read these things with a bit more context in mind. Tom is trying to communicate that the game needs to clearly explain where the underlying numbers come from. I think that is very legitimate.
Unlike GalCiv where the numbers were just plain voodoo, Elemental has the Hiergamenon so there is an opportunity to communicate to the player where the stats come from and in the version he is playing, those numbers are just not clearly communicated and to a lot of people (and I include myself in this group) it is a BIG deal.
That doesn't mean he doesn't like the game or thinks it's a bad game or what have you. He also wrote the very influential article "The Sins of Sins of a Solar Empire" that provided a good pathway for Stardock/Ironclad to improve that game too.
I like what Tom writes in general and am a subscriber to his podcast, Three Moves Ahead. Don't always agree with what he says but he always backs up what he says with reasons.
BTW, Frogboy, when are the guys going to get you in for an interview again? I'm sure it must be on the cards.
Personally I think it is great that a reviewer and a developer can be friends AND maintain their professional integrity.
Besides all this Tom had a guest role in The Office which I think is pretty cool.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
