I know these forums are inhabited by even the most hardened of Stardock fans, and i am one too. But if you love something you can't be blind to criticize it. Already we have a thread saying don't complain so I know how this thread will turn out but i'm really hoping for an actual dialogue that won't be met with rampant fanboyism.
Anyway I just read this article and while I know there is a zero day patch coming, i'm a little worried about exactly HOW much they fixed in such a short amount of time. It seems like there are a lot of bugs/typos/mistakes and I think as a paying customer it's okay to say this.
A note from Frogboy on this
Hi guys,
Let me add some points here:
1. Tom Chick is one of the top gaming journalists in the industry. He's not just some guy.
2. He is reviewing the gold version (he is NOT playing the day 0 version). I.e. He is NOT playing a beta.
3. While I would quibble with some of the content (yes, we multiply bonuses. We multiplied them in Entrepreneur, we multiplied them in GalCiv, and we multiply them in Elemental and have throughout the beta).
4. I agree with Tom that the Hiergamenon page should make it more clear that those bonuses are being multiplied and that there is a text bug in the description of Educated that was since addressed.
5. The math system under the hood does work as designed, even in the gold version. It's not buggy but I think Tom brings up a valid point that the way it is explained to the player needs work (I think Tom would also agree it's light years ahead of how we "explained" the math in GalCiv II which was, essentially we didn't).
6. This isn't a review, it's a diary. Please read Tom's other works. It doesn't mean he hates the game. He is pointing things out that he thinks can be improved in the game and we can all benefit from it.
Anyway here is the article and some snippets:
http://fidgit.com/archives/2010/08/elemental_in_a_world_of_dragon.php I'm trying to like Elemental. I really am. But the version I have now, and the version you're probably going to get to start playing tomorrow if you pre-ordered, is in pretty sad shape. A patch should be available by Monday. I hope it's a big patch. My problem isn't just the way Elemental assumes you know things you would have no way of knowing, or the amateurish mistakes in the interface, or the crashes, or how alt-tabbing kills the game, or the way the Farming Guild increases metal production by 100%, or that I didn't get the leather armor I was promised when I researched it, or even this picture of the dreaded Umberdroth Pack, which either has cloaking technology or is so skinny it can hide behind a palm tree. Actually, maybe the Umberdroth Pack is the palm trees. I suppose there's no reason you can't have a tropical ent. All those things are frustrating enough. But I'm a bit worried that I simply can't trust the game to do what it says it's doing.
http://fidgit.com/archives/2010/08/elemental_in_a_world_of_dragon.php
I'm trying to like Elemental. I really am. But the version I have now, and the version you're probably going to get to start playing tomorrow if you pre-ordered, is in pretty sad shape. A patch should be available by Monday. I hope it's a big patch.
My problem isn't just the way Elemental assumes you know things you would have no way of knowing, or the amateurish mistakes in the interface, or the crashes, or how alt-tabbing kills the game, or the way the Farming Guild increases metal production by 100%, or that I didn't get the leather armor I was promised when I researched it, or even this picture of the dreaded Umberdroth Pack, which either has cloaking technology or is so skinny it can hide behind a palm tree.
Actually, maybe the Umberdroth Pack is the palm trees. I suppose there's no reason you can't have a tropical ent.
All those things are frustrating enough. But I'm a bit worried that I simply can't trust the game to do what it says it's doing.
All I ask is for you guys to just read this and not to flip out on me for criticizing or worrying about the game or wondering exactly HOW much this zero-day patch is going to fix.
Or are we? Base resources can change due to a lot of factors. Let us say you have a basic mining operation, that supplies 5 units of metal a turn. You get technology that allow you to work faster and extract 25% more a turn; ie. your base resource just changed. Then you get technology that allow you to extract more ore from the raw stone that is collected. Again, your base resource is changing.
This is the same in Elemental, and we are pretty much just arguing semantics now. Stardock made it this way to allow for specialized cities and it seems pretty logical to me.
Whats next, should we take Jim Sterling reviews seriously too?
Personally i dont listen much to reviews, for two reasons.1. I myself am the only one who knows what kinda games I like, and I loved every other Stardock game that Frogboy was involved in, this basically looks like Galciv in fantasyland, and I have every confidence that it will turn out great after a few patches because of previous Stardock games experience.2. I was a naive noob a few years ago.. I awaited a little supposedly HUGE ZOMG game called Spore.. It was supposed to be a huge massive living evolving galaxy 4x evolution game. Then the reviews came, and handed it GOTY awards, 9.8 scores, praising it as the coming of christ and all our prayers answered.It fucking sucked. Bribed reviews are an infestation and part of the reason why I dont pay any attention to them anymore.
Don't be afraid guys, sure some of us wont make it out alive we may encounter a typo, a missing piece of information or even worse some major bugs that may
wipe out a whole platoon but i say to you, our leader brought us this far and hell yeah it may be a long and hard fight but I for one am going in so who's with
me,(pauses for crowd cheering) Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more or close up the wall with our (insert nationality here) dead
Mr. Chick is entitled to his opinion and what's more he is entitled to spread it across the Internet for all to read.
However, I am also entitled to my opinion - and based on my past experience Stardock has earned enough of my trust to get my pre-order for this game. Mr. Chick's past reviews have not given me enough confidence that his views of a game will match my own for him to have earned the same level of trust from me.
I pay attention and read reviews to help guide me but they are rarely the final factor in my thoughts to buy or not to buy. A "Preview" of a pre-release product that never mentioned it was as beta version let me know the review was not valid. A Poster had to note it was the beta 4 version.
I base my personal score of a game on how fun it is, not if it has math errors. Elemental was already an engaging, fun, and addicting game in beta 4. I am sure patches will clean up math errors and typos, etc but the game will be enjoyable for most folks who like the 4x turn based games.
You don't typically multiply bonuses like that. Assuming the real bonuses are 25% and 50% I'd expect the math to be 5 + (5 * .25) + (5 * .5) = 8.75 . Maybe it was the designer's intention to stack up bonuses like that but It's awfully confusing when what you expect to happen is not happening.
The criticisms in the article are fair. Especially from a company that made it a point to declare :
"Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state."
Maybe the "Day 0" patch will fix a lot of stuff...
Exactly. I read Tom Chicks blog quite regularly and enjoy reading his opinions however I know his taste in games greatly differs from mine so will not be basing my decision to buy on what he says.
If some initial impressions are putting people off, then do as Frogboy recommends and wait for the demo and decide for yourselves.
Hell no. Not him. Never him.
You know, I actually really enjoyed Spore. I thought it was an excellent little idea as to what games can be -- then again (and this supports your point, by the by) I never read reviews, previews, or listen to hype. I just see a little blurb here and there and occasionally poke at some forums, then buy and play the games.
It's pretty rare that I am horribly disappointed by a title because I don't go into them expecting the kind of "OMGAMAZINGESTGAMEEVER" crap that most people do.
I'm supporting your statement here, not disagreeing with it, by the by.
Understanding that he's playing the Gold Version (which we should be playing today! HOORAY!) I would like to ask how many of the things he is mentioning (not counting the math because the math is what I expected given the intent to specialize cities and the exponential growth of costs, it only seems right that the growth of assets would be exponential as well)can be fairly assumed are resolved with the 0-Day?
Edit: Holy minced sentence batman! RESOLVED THAT!
RE: Gold vs Day 0
Since the release is the 24th, is the version we get today the gold version or the actual 0-day version? Or perhaps somewhere inbetween?
Agreed. More gamers need to learn how to manage their expectations.
Thanks for hitting this head-on Brad.
Here's a fact: Most gaming "journalists" aren't even thorough and skilled enough to notice the things that Tom Chick is writing about.
So really, Chick's eventual review will probably be a great indicator of how good the game is.
I was a big strategy gamer in the 1980s and 1990s, but in the last 10 years or so I've focused almost exclusively on RPGs and action games. When I play Civ Rev or Civ IV, they hold my hand enough where I don't have to necessarily be a total expert to play the games.
Gal Civ II, which I just recently bought and have been playing, and the Elemental Betas, all rely on you to figure out what's going on. That doesn't make them bad games, but it makes them less accessible.
Civ V should be more accessible, but I bought Elemental and based on my time with it and Gal Civ II, I think it will be fun anyway.
If all bonus's are multiplied, that makes getting a character trait with a bonus that more valuable as it will add to the stack of bonuses you find in game
I'm not worried.
Neither. It's in-between.
Hello Elemental community, my first post; I recently discovered Elemental, and I just ordered the game at a retailer.
As a predominately CD album illustrator (and former game designer), I need to provide my clients with finished work. I am a a bit wary for Stardock, that the game will supposedly have so many issues. Why submit a bug and issue-laden game to a reviewer. Even if this talented team fixes most of the bugs and does an amazing job upgrading and expanding Elemental (which does have limitless potential), months later, a poor review (because of above-said issues), will still be shown in a magazine or web site, and people do look at the reviews. Hence, because of a premature release, this could mean negative publicity.
Yet, I am heartened by the game's community and it's positive support that everything will eventually be resolved. I guess only time will tell.
Best of luck and I can't wait to play (and mod).
Cheers
Just to follow-up, let me say that I agree with most of Tom's facts.
We DO, intentionally, multiply bonuses. If I could get away with it, I'd have bonuses provide exponential bonuses. The idea is for improvements and such to provide a bigger bang.
The numbers, in the game do work fine, even in the gold version. The UI just needs to be much MUCH better about conveying how this stuff works for those who want to dig into the numbers via the Hiergamenon.
I am a big fan of Fidgit and Tom Chick.
I don't always agree with him, but his critiques are usually spot on. The difference is that people hold the severity of his critiques differently.
For example, he and I had the exact same issues with StarCraft 2. For me, it made the game boring and I put it down in a matter of days. For him, it was easy enough to overlook that he became immersed in the game (or so I gathered from his game diaries). Same critiques, different levels of importance.
The guy isn't out to get anyone. He isn't a hack. He writes about big games and little games, and writes about them honestly. He refuses to buy into hype.
What he wrote here was the first in a game diary. He normally does a handful of those, and then often an official review on top of that. Also, he tends to use the first diary to point out the major flaws, before diving into further gameplay elements later.
Don't put too much stock into what he has written.... yet.
I am very, very worried about how the game will be received at day 0. I personally won't have any trouble waiting multiple months for the game to evolve into what it should be. The problem is that if the game feels as a work-in-progress title for consumers and gets bashed in reviews, it might end up in poor sales and hurt the modding community a lot.
Also if the game isn't received well, I'm afraid that it would hurt the morale of the developer team behind the game. First and foremost I hope that the game is received very well and praised by the reviewers and sells millions. If that doesn't happen, I truly hope Brad & Co. can stay positive and see the potential in this game and together with the community make it the greatest 4x game / modding toolset in history.
I wouldn't be worried about the reviews. Remember that the 4x genre is a niche genre and 4x games are few and far between regardless. You'll no doubt have 4x fans picking up the game and/or buying it through word of mouth after the release week even if the reviews are bad.
I would be very surprised if the reviews of Elemental are negative. Very surprised.
Elemental is, by far, the best game Stardock has ever produced.
That doesn't mean it's perfect or doesn't have its share of rough edges. But it is, imo, the best game we've ever made.
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