Ok then.  So muslims who want Sharia law have that freedom of speech to.  Build the mosque!

Um what?  Where did I 'equate the two'?  The only person equating the two, is---well---you.  So tell us, do you support anti-pornography laws? 

Actually, no DG.  Any person who uses religion to justify hate and bigotry makes my shit list.  This includes Christians, Muslims, whoever.  That's a consistent attitude of mine across the board. 

But why?  Why does believing that somebody has a right to build a church ----however in poor taste --- mean that there's some sort of ideological alignment?  To me, that seems a fundamental right.  I think I read that somewhere. 

Several 'pro family' organizations with the 501c3 designation are or have had hate organization status.  You can go look at the SPLC  on your own.

No.  Not at all.  I'ma  asking why you would advocate that muslim folks can't build a Mosque and deny them their religious freedoms. 

Somebody's durr readin' skillz are slow again. 

No.  I never said that. 

However, your fear of religious laws seems so strange because you support Christian driven values laws but your just trembling in fear of Muslim driven values laws.

Yeah.  It must be totally made up.  There are no Christian zealots out there who would do something like that.  Ever. 

LOL.  DG, you blame Obama every time it rains. 

No.  I'm a common sense catholic.  Not a crazy one. 

So DG, tell us.  If the mosque is built will the whole country start falling apart?  Will their be beheadings in the streets?  Tell us what you're really afraid of. 

Hey lookee here:   It's the totally not racist, rational, anti-mosque crowd harassing some dude for some reason:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/37006_Video-_Anti-Mosque_Mob_Turns_On_Black_Union_Carpenter/

I wonder why they assumed he was Muslim.  Any guesses?   

Not a good old-fashioned beheading, but dead all the same in the name of faith.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/08/honor.killing/index.html

"Neighbor Veronda Luckett said the family had always been "relatively quiet."

"They seemed to be decent, lovely people," she said."

"The United Nations Population Fund estimated in September 2000 that as many as 5,000 women and girls fall victim to such killings each year."

Fair assessment.

No one has denied them that.  nor has anyone denied them the freedom of religion.  You seem to think that the protests are against the government doing or not doing something.  You clearly do not understand the right of the protesters to voice their opinion about building the mosque.  They are demonstrating against the building of the mosque to the BUILDERS of the mosque.  To my knowledge, no one is twisting Peterson's, Bloomberg's or Obama's arm.  Yet you cannot seem to understand that simple issue.

Stutter some more while you try to extricate yourself from that dilemma.  Clearly you are saying that either no one can state their opinion without it being coercion, or that they are not allowed to state their opinion period because it disagrees with yours.  Mighty arrogant of you to be "Big Brother" now.

making your shit list I am sure is terrifying to so many.  But you are going beyond making a shit list, you are denying them the same freedoms you are apparently reserving for yourself and those you happen to agree with.

Who is claiming ideological alignment?  Apparently only you.  You would allow them to build the mosque (as you correctly state is their right) yet deny ANYONE from protesting it (which thank god since you are not in charge, is still their right as well).

Backtracking I see.  Before you mentioned specifics, and now you say "several", which is very generic.  And so you take one "hate" group's opinion to basically make a blanket statement about other groups?  I am sure the KKK has a list of hate groups too.  That the groups you listed are on the SPLC's list is not surprising as they do not bend to the basic tenets of welfare and affirmative action advocated by the SPLC.  So what you are saying is "if you disagree with me, you are a hate group".  I see how judgmental you love to be.

You equated the 2.  It is your fault that now you have to backtrack on it.

Why are you asking me?  I am DEFENDING the people who are protesting, but I am not protesting.  Again, you assume facts not in evidence.  I have made my opinion clear.  I think the building at that site is in poor taste, but they have the right to build it (just re-read the comments you apparently have not read in this thread).

Yes, apparently yours.

I see - so the US military is now a bunch of Christian Zealots.  And you have proof of this?  Please produce it.

Again, show me where I have.  Please, weasel out of this statement which is now copied and pasted to another comment so you can no longer remove it to save face.

I see, so every Catholic who believes in the teachings of the Pope and the Church teachings are crazy.  Nice slam at millions of people you do not know, have never met, and will never understand.  I can see why you are trying to be big brother.  Sorry, I am not so arrogant to think I can condemn so many just because I have found situational ethics.

Bu-bu-but those are the people you love!  Or were looking for!  I know, there has never been an Ugly New Yorker, and of course they are EVERYBODY, right?

I have no idea their reasoning, rationale, or "threats".  But unlike you I watched the video.  You apparently did not.

1. The crowd did not assume anything - they saw opposition and confronted it.

2. He was not assaulted - can you imagine someone walking through a liberal rally and doing so peacefully like this one was?  I have never heard of that, and I doubt you have either (unless the opposition was surrounded by police).

3. The few (one or 2) that  thought he was a muslim was because of his support.  Did YOU think it was because he was black?  says a lot about YOU, does it not (especially since most Muslims are not black).

It seems you are the one with the problem.  The only thing that video proved is the rally was peaceful, and they did confront someone in opposition peacefully.  All concepts that are foreign to you I gather.

Again, so who is the dictator here?  No, the stupidity is in the fact your comment followed a statement of fact. NO ONE HERE has any power to FORCE you to do ANYTHING under the name of any God, yet you want to silence them?  I merely pointed out that this (until Dan gets control) is a nice place to express one of your constitutional rights and the justification for your position can be anything you want - God, a toad or pond scum.  So again I say why are you so afraid of people expressing their constitutional right?

You asked, I answered.  Do I need to pull more quotes?

And how are they doing that?  Hmmmm, let me see, voting?  So if someone says they believe in God and then votes, that is enough for you?

No, there is no one on this board doing any imposing.  They are expressing opinions (often they start with code words like "I like, I do not like).  Indeed, there is NO ONE in the US that is Christian that is IMPOSING anything.  Of course you will argue that Christians saddled us with the ten commandments codified into law.  But how did they do that?

They got a majority of voters to approve of the "Thou shalt not"s.  OMG!  We are about to be conquered by ethics!

Again, no one imposed.  But a lot of people voted and expressed opinions.  Your bug-a-boo is staring back at you in the mirror.

Then every word uttered by anyone is TRYING.  I fear less the person who is a hot head, for they seldom DO anything.  It is the one that works to rule you that I fear.  And while many hear have expressed views, not a one has tried to get anyone arrested, deported, or killed for not agreeing with them.

Words do mean things.  But they do not mean the person is actively trying to change your life, only expressing support, condemnation, or outrage over mine or your choices.

So did the founders when they created the constitution.  So did Mass when the legislature said it could be done.  It happens all the time, and they are imposing their morality on all of their constituents.  But they do it legally and by the law, which is going to happen regardless of where you live (unless you live on an island with no one else).

But the difference is that these folks here cannot do anything by themselves - except vote - which is their right.  Just as it is your right to vote any way you feel is necessary. or "right".

See?  We agree.  And the law in Mass. imposed something on 100% of the citizens of Mass.  It conforms to your morality (and indeed it does mine as well), so you do not have a problem with it.  But you are as guilty (or not as I claim) of imposing on the ones that are against it as they are of imposing their views on you.

Not about building mosques, but I suppose this is other example of folks voting their religious views:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html

"Seven in 10 African Americans who went to the polls voted yes on Proposition 8, the ballot measure overruling a state Supreme Court judgment that legalized same-sex marriage and brought 18,000 gay and lesbian couples to Golden State courthouses in the past six months."

http://cbs5.com/local/proposition.8.poll.2.834082.html

"The poll conducted for CBS 5 by SurveyUSA indicates that support for the measure to ban gay marriage has grown among voters in the state over an eleven day period — most especially among young voters."

Will anybody be adding seven out of 10 of black, or the majority of young Californian voters to their shit list? We know what right wing, religious zealots those demographics can be.

You suck at propaganda too.  NO ONE has denied them ANYTHING.  Many have vocally said they do not like the idea of the mosque being built so close to ground zero.

Which party?  the Democrats and harry Reid?

So who is denying them the right?  I'll give you a clue - NO ONE.

You implied it.  Go back and read your response to the issue of the LGF non-issue.

I know, talk is violent.  No punches were exchanged.  No one was hurt or even touched!  I can see where that would be violent to you since it was not some loony lefty Luddite punching some one.  But the truth is in the video.   And it shows me correct and you wrong.

What level would that be?  A person speaking their opinion in a peaceful manner?  If that is "my level" you are correct.  And I can see how that would be an anathema to you.  Since it violated your freedom of speech by not kow towing to your infinite wisdom and point of view,

Better a simple understanding than no understanding.

Not sure what ODS is, but the right deals with race just fine.  It is the left that cannot seem to live up to MLK's ideals.  Everything they do and say is couched in racist terms.  They cannot get PAST the color of ones skin.  That is all they see.  And unfortunately all they will ever see because they were born of the racist and never left home.

You have to dig to china to find it on the right.  Oh, there is some.  As long as man is not stepford, there will always be some.  But it does not dictate their lives, nor the outlook as it does on the left.  The left lives, eats, sleeps, and breathes it.  They can do nothing else because it is their last hold on power.  Divide with fake bug-a-boos so they can scare people into voting for them as they have no other reason for existence.

As for the beating over the head, if you repeat a lie enough times, many will start to believe you.  The lie is in your words.  But when you have the MSM to back you up, it gains traction.  Brietbart still has that million dollars he offered for proof of the slurs at the rally.  The MSM reported the hell out of the allegations, but never offered any proof. Because there was none.

No, it has been subverted by the race hucksters.  They are in the business of finding what is not there to perpetuate their own existence.  The wingnut is you.  The proof is in the emptiness and shallowness of their proclamations.  Do you recall the time they condemned Byrd for using the N word?  No?  Really?  I am not surprised.  They  never did.

I am not from Ohio.  I went to school there (UD).  It was not the start or the end of my education.  Indeed, I was schooled under one of the most liberal bishops in North America (a very liberal area for the Catholic Church) and he would roll over in his grave to hear you spout that kind of stupidity.  If that is not enough, ,my cousin is in charge of youth Christian Formation for the Arch Diocese of DC.  He says you are also full of it. 

I know, you next retort is going to be a "oh yeah?".  But sadly, you do suffer from the liberal malady of "know-it-all" syndrome.  Which does make you very stupid for you do not know what you know not.  And another clue for you - the whole world is not wrong because you think you are right.

Yes, I know. WHen you are clueless and have no leg to stand on, just dismiss the opposition with stupid labels that have no meaning or justification.  I cannot say you are crazy.  Insane perhaps, but delusional is more the word.  You have created a fantasy world that does not exist in reality.  And like most lefties, when that delusion is threatened, you strike out like a wounded animal.  Without rational thought, just to damage the person picking apart your delusion.  It is sad, but far from unprecedented.

Elitist/Elitism - the consciousness of being or belonging to an elite group. Elitism/Elitist is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite -- a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes -- are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.

You are living in a surreal world.  Try living in the real one and then showing us all the links to where any of these things have been done.  And better yet, how anyone here (or at the LGF rally) is a member of a local zoning board or for that matter congress.

Not when that was raised.  You made that statement independent of the Texas GOP, and in the middle of the Mosque issue.

And I have to ask, is it now illegal to have religious values? (I will make it generic enough so you can hang yourself)

Ok, pull any part of that video (out of context even) and show us the violence.  THERE IS NONE.  Clearly I am not the deranged one.  It is you who thinks that a demonstration - where no property, life, body or soul - is damaged is violent.  We are talking not even a rock (or pebble) thrown!  How many times can you say that about a lefty demonstration?  (Clue - How many thumbs do you have on your left hand)

He did not.  His group was disassociated by the main tea Party Group.  And why was it?  Hmm?  Have you forgotten?  I guess so since you do not know what the hell you are talking about.

No, you are a simpleton though.  The beauty and ugliness of the Catholic Church is its nature not to change with the whims of society.  Indeed, that is what the detractors hate about it, and what those who revere the church love about it.  But it is neither good nor bad.  it simply is.  You want to think it is somehow associated with the Unitarian church.  It is not.  And clearly, while you wish it were, you are clueless as to what it is.

That is your own myopia.  I said what the Church is.  I never said what the world is.  You want it to be something else, but you do not make the rules (indeed, not even the American Catholic Conference of Bishops do that).  I have enough critical thinking skills to recognize what is the secular and non-secular world.  You apparently do not.

You crack me up!  "those of us".  You mean the demented ones?  There is no nuance.  There are thousands of religious sects out there, choose one that fits your "critical thinking".  But you cannot decide WHAT the Church is based upon your own delusions.  Right or wrong, the Church has clearly delineated tenets and teachings.  Your "decision" to change them does not change them, it just moves you out of the faithful.  And the sad part is you cannot even understand that.  You live in a delusional world where what you decide becomes god's law.  And the reality is that only makes you mentally sick, not right.

#1: My "wingnut" cousin is more liberal than you can even imagine being.  but he is not stupid.  He not only has faith, he lives it, but then again, you cannot recognize that or understand it in your delusional world.  The only thing my cousin and I agree on is our faith.  But every time we go to the polls, we cancel each other out.  That He agrees with me on something the rest of Catholics do means you have to (erroneously) label him and degrade him - without ever meeting him.  That says a lot about you, and your mental malady.

But it cannot be changed by each individual.  You can set your faith to what you want, but that does not make you a Catholic.  yet you are too far gone to understand this is reality - not "danality".  In other words, your demented mind does not make the rules for this universe, no matter how much you want it to.

You have to buy every chapter and verse of the tenets.  you do not have to buy every chapter and verse of the opinions.  But then you cannot differentiate the difference, so you think you can doubt every chapter and verse of everything.  No, there is a concept of doubting in and doubting out.  You are definitely the latter.  You can continue to call yourself Catholic, but you are not.

Another stupid statement.  Neither I, nor you nor the Pope can excommunicate ANYONE except YOURSELF.  And that you are doing by doubting out.

Another stupid statement (but then I do repeat myself).  Your ignorance is only surpassed by your mental derangement in still thinking this is your universe.  You took a statement of mine and decided to be stupid about it.  If you want to think my cousin is the pope, that just adds to your delusion.

Show me where I am scared?  I think it is you that shows extreme paranoia and self delusion, and of course phobia of anything you cannot control.  To the point you see violence where there is none (all of us have access to the video so quit being stupid about it), religion where there is none, and self importance where there is none.  Muslims do not scare me, but crazy people like you do.  not that anyone will listen to  you, but that not being able to control your delusional world, you will become violent.  You need to be put on psychiatric care and soon for your own safety and those around you.

Double standards?  please point them out.  I am sure we all here would love to see them.  But you need to point out the real ones in this universe, not the "danality".  For there are no double standards in my writings or beliefs.  I am not babbling about Obama or the MSM here, I am simply pointing out that while the Muslims (please check the statements I have written before you do lie more) have the right to build the mosque, that does not make it right.  And the people do have the right to demonstrate against it.  And threatened?  now you are again backtracking.  A threat can be something as simple as a sneer or an "o, yeah!".  You claimed violence, now you claim just threats.  You are backtracking.  because you lied.  I am very sorry to say it, but you are a liar.

The man was never in real danger as the video proves.  But those around you are in very real danger from you.  Should you ever see them threaten your delusions, I fear for their safety.

You are a sad pathetic man who cannot differentiate reality from delusion. 

Yes. It's the same story that has been revealing itself ever since Mohammadanism (Islam) arose in in the early part of the seventh century and began conquering its enemies. 

If you study Islam's history, its progress and stages, as well as its nature, you'll find that Islam has kept its battle against Christendom and its culture. In those early 7th, 8th and 9th centuries what is known as Asia today was overthrown by this very simple, personal form of government, sanctified by false religion, and ruling with a power theoretically absolute from one center.  

North Africa is proof that once Islam captures a land and its people, it begins to absorb its culture replacing it with its own.

And this part of Islam's nature has never changed nor will ever change. Islam regards with contempt every other culture, especially Christianity, except its own.

You are making huge assumptions about me here. I'm not a religious person.  I decided a long, long time ago that it wasn't for me, so I decided, instead of being angry and bitter, to just quit going to church.  You obviously have a huge beef with Christianity, and I just don't have that beef. I  can look at it more objectively than you. I never apologized for what any Christians did, I asserted (quite correctly) that Christianity and Sharia are different. I never said "all Christians are good people."  We're talking about what specific religions preach to their followers. My judgement here is not based on my love of Christians (as yours is based on a hatred of them), it's based on the fact that when a Christian commits a murder he does so against his religion, and when a Muslim living by Sharia commits an "honor killing," he does so according to his religion.  It is not the same thing. If you want to argue that there are a lot of hypocritical Christians out there, then I will agree with you.  But that's a different discussion. The Christian religion quite specifically states "Thou shalt not kill." Sharia... well... doesn't. And you don't actually believe your own argument yourself, that's the funny thing. You bash Christians and "Jebus" all day long, and you feel perfectly safe doing so. Because you know nobody will kill you for it. Go to Saudi Arabia and bash Muhammed like that. If, like you say, Christianity and Sharia are the exact same thing, then you will have nothing to worry about.

And if you go back and look, you'll see I never said a word about the mosque. I only entered this conversation when you asked what the difference was between Christianity and Sharia. My thoughts on the mosque are pretty much the same as yours--it's in bad taste, but it's all legal, so there it is.

I consider it an affront to my freedom when a bunch of morons wearing buttless chaps and rainbow wigs are blocking traffic and screaming about how I have to think of them as normal. I'm not going to play your "you're either with us or against us" game. You see this major defining moment in civil rights history, but all I see is a bunch of children screaming "I'm right and you're wrong!"--"No, I'm right and you're wrong!"

Humbordt... there is no place for rationality for some. Either you are 100% with them (and shouting it out loud) or you are against them. There can be no middle ground, to except such would be to allow "potential" future disagreement. You are just not as enlightened as they are, and if they can't convince you of that and make you see your evil ways, they must marginalize you, by whatever means. The methods used are often the characterizations they imply others of exhibiting (hate, intolerance, lack of understanding). Read (or even watch the movie) Doctor Zhivago, it's a good insight into what goes around comes around. And I do believe, most of these people would hate living in the world they are so eager to create.