There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.
No Copy Protection
Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever. However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates. But then, why should this be necessary?
Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.
So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers. We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product). This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.
So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental. Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).
LAN Games
There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends. Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.
#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.
#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.
#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.
#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game). This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players). Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.
Nesrie, I am not saying everyone is being rude, but I think if you read the whole post and all replies there are definitely some rude and or obnoxious posts (i.e. the reason Frogboy left and hasn't come back).
There hasn't been a lot of information about MP, I agree, and I understand why people want that information. Elemental is not going to support LAN at release. There it is, I think that they will support it eventually, but it isn't for sure. The client/server model is simply to overcome the problems that P2P networking gave them in Demigod. I think the reducing Piracy is simply a bonus. Besides most people will play SP and this does nothing to discourage piracy there, so I don't think that was the motivating factor.
The "trick" that you refer to is instructions on how to get a game going from a single internal network connected to Stardock's servers, it has nothing, I repeat nothing, to do with the LAN support you are referring to.
Stardock has always been very open that this is a SP game first and foremost. Why you expect them to have every MP feature is a mystery to me. See the thread created by Frogboy that said, if you are buying this game for MP you will most likely be disappointed.
All that said, I would love to be able to play on LAN eventually. I've got a great setup to do so. I guess I don't understand the passion that you guys are showing for a feature that is relatively minor to the game. I understand that it is not minor to you, but in the grand scheme of the game, it is not a critical feature. ::shrug::
I see nothing at all talking about custom servers talking to impulse/stardock in this thread from Frogboy. I believe you are assuming something that none of us know at this point.
That is what a demo is for, to allow people on the fence to decide. It is also obviously unreasonable for you to purchase a game once and then hand it out to as many friends as you like. Come on, you're starting to sound like a pirate who is angry he won't be able to play multiplayer with his friends. You won't gain any sympathy for the pirate vote here, unless you are just trolling this thread, which in that case I guess you have won some points since I have responded.
Where do people get the idea that "LAN" automatically means no internet connection? LAN only means you have a bunch of networked computers. Having an internet connection or not doesn't change anything. Playing a game with a computer on the network hosting, and playing with every computer on the network connecting to an online server are both "LAN'. It's a term independent of gaming, making this whole debate silly.
You feel that any MP game should not only have internet games avaialble but also complete modding and Lan Support at release time or it is unfinished from a MP perspective. I disagree that for the game to be complete it needs those features. That you took Brad's comments as a promise is unfortunate, and is probably the reason most developers don't comment on forums. Just because Brad said he wanted those features and they were initially planned doesn't mean that they were guaranteed to be in. The same can be said for continuous turns, just because they were said to be in, and then were taken out doesn't mean that I am not getting what was promised.
First of all, thanks for a very calm and well written reply.
Speaking personally, the modding thing bothers me more then the LAN thing. The LAN thing took over and while I'm not happy about it, it's no different then Starcraft 2 and I live with it there. But the modding thing? My intention for the game is to play both SP and MP with a friend who also bought the game, and do some modding (in particular Wizards towers ala AoW 2, so a sovereign could stay and home and cast).
From the stuff I've linked, I think it's easy to understand why I expected to be able to play that mod MP. In release, I won't be able to. Nowhere until this week was it stated that mods wouldn't work in MP at release (or that there was no LAN support).
I don't think I was misled, I think the deadline happened. But it does beg the question of if modding is considered a core part of the game (and it's advertised as one), is the game really ready for release if mods don't work in MP? That's an opinion point, but IMO, no. LAN play happens to come with it, because the two problems share the same solution (custom servers).
Which is a problem, since if the game isn't actually ready for release due to missing that feature but it's coming out anyway, Stardock just broke their own Gamer's Bill of Rights.
As for the LAN with a single copy thing, that was never promised for Elemental. But it was something Stardock did in previous games like Sins (2 people for one copy on LAN), and it was a great way to introduce a friend to the game. It's a shame they didn't continue it. There's been a trend away from that sort of thing, I was actually surprised to find guest passes in my copy of Starcraft 2 that are fully functional.
Unfortunately this is also the thread where we found out about the lack of LAN support and the MP mods issue, so the reaction is here. Another commenter mentioned expectations, and I think that's the problem. Blizzard's lack of LAN support wasn't a surprise, they told people months in advance. We just found out about it, in this thread. Had they said this feature wouldn't make release 2 months ago? We're probably not having this conversation.
No particular argument there, I've learned my lesson. (Actually as a rule I don't pre-order games and usually only buy after a demo. Given my good experiences with Stardock in the past, this time was an exception. I'll go back to sticking to that rule in the future.)
Because has there ever been a client/server game where it didn't work if you were sharing Internet? Being on a LAN isn't relevant for an Internet game.
For a LAN game, being offline IS relevant because you can have a LAN without Internet access. Since the game won't work in that configuration, it's not really offering LAN support. It offers Internet support that happens to still work if you're Internet comes across a LAN.
I'm surprised you'd even bring that up Annatar, this has been a pretty frequent issue now that games are phasing out LAN support.
I don't even know why LAN is being mentioned that situation, and no kidding. It's too bad Brad put the word LAN in the subject and then gave us that.
Yes, they have. But let's get this straight. If they intended to give a half-ass MP approach, they should have been upfront about that or left it out. And don't tell me they've been upfront about giving a stripped down, don't care approach to MP. That was never impression they gave and is certainly not what they said. I am beginning to wonder now.
I don't know that basic connectivity to other players in a multiplayer game "every MP feature". I am not sure what you even mean by "every MP feature" anyway. We're talking very basic features at this point, and if you are going to brag about modding a game for years, it's probably not a stretch to think that the MP component would be expected to be covered as well. Especially since Civ came up a lot during these discussions and CIV is highly moddable in the MP department.
I mean dear lord, since when has LAN and mods ever been the this ultimate luxury item that is so unusual that only games that have "every MP feature" should have them? Hell, LAN wouldn't have been an issue if they hadn't said it was going to be available earlier and then posted this weirdo thing Brad did about how not to get LAN to work. Believe me, I would not be taking issue if he'd just come in here and said sorry, LAN is not available at release, we're working on it for post re-lease or it's just not going to be available period. Just don't try to redefine LAN and ask me why I am questioning it.
FiringSquad: Can you play multiplayer on LAN? Brad Wardell: Elemental requires you still have internet access; you do have to have an account [and sign in] to play multiplayer. The way it works, almost as an anti-cheat mode – unless you set up your own custom servers, which I guess you could for LAN, but I don’t know if that’ll be available on Day 0 or not. Effectively, all the data comes from the servers, so someone can’t mod their local machine for victory, so to speak. Other than that, when we play internally, we’re playing on our LAN.
Next Journel entry please, this thread has become extremely tiresome and long winded. The custom servers are in the works and i doubt it will be long before they come out but it really does depend on what kind of MP traffic the dev's see after launch.
I'm saying Stardock should provide the same method of LAN gaming which worked for previous legendary games such as DIABLO. A new game being released should be focused on having as many gamers play as possible to get them hooked. I visit with most of my relatives only a few times a year and some of that time is gaming. It's unreasonable to spend hundreds of extra dollars for those gaming sessions.
While you might feel comfortable spending a couple hundred for a game and its expansions I see it as only something which will cause less gamers to play and get hooked thus overall reducing the longterm financial possibilities for Elemental and limiting the size of the Elemental gaming community. The game will have less play by gamers because of restrictions which reduces "word of mouth" discussions. The community will not grow as large thus modified game content from other gamers, forum help from other gamers, etc., will be less than what's possible.
Stardock has a good short term design for absorbing as much money as possible from customers.
I guess they still think LAN = IPX. Honestly I'd like to meet the LAN party that sets up in a cave. The acoustics must be awesome, but I wouldn't really return to a meet location that didn't have internet.
Now this is how this should have read:
FiringSquad: Can you play multiplayer on LAN? Brad Wardell: NO
*Walks into the room* ...*Takes off sunglasses, peers around the room* ... ... ... ... .. !!!!
Someone fed them after midnight!!! LOOK AT THIS MESS! They're everywhere! Best thing to do in this situation is first break out your violin and start slowly walking back out of the room and letting the sad tune fade into the distance. As everyone who has ever been in a beta should be well aware of..Everything, EVERYTHING is subject to change. Guess what? LAN got changed. I'd pout, as I am one of those seemingly(?) .01% who plans to play MP quite a lot with my buds (all of which have bought the game btw), however I'm not too broken up about it. In fact, I'm entirely unfazed by it. So we have to wait a little while longer before we can pack our gear and get together. /sadfacehere-butnotreally.
Go you Murteas. And NTJedi, I'm not entirely sure what to make of your posts mate. You..confuse me.. And much as current global economic models do hurt my heart, you might want to consider the capitalistic side to the..whatever it is your trying to say. If this amorphous "family" that you keep referring to can't afford all of the copies that they'd need to play together..then..save up? Or perhaps realize that gaming isn't a necessity, it is a luxury.
I also will not go into the DRM issue, as debating crazy is crazy. So heres to hoping that the sun shines brightly on this thread and those pesky critters are dried out and go back to whatever bridge they came from, preferably one that is old and near collapse.
They were pretty upfront about this being single player first. Just look at the time multiplayer got in the beta compared to balancing single player. It isn't that big of a stretch for that to suggest where their focus is. Besides, if you are a mostly multiplayer game you don't really need to focus on the AI as much as have been done. I don't know how you came to this conclusion, but it wasn't from postings by Stardock.
Not a pirate and I've always encouraged shady forum characters to legitimately purchase games. The game is not to hand out to friends, but playing the game is how I get my friends hooked. As for a games Demo... have you seen some of the demos available?? They're frustrating with limitations and missing features thus not enough bait for hooking the gamer. Who even knows if the Elemental demo will be multiplayer friendly since Stardock carries an "almost" hatred for multiplayer. If it's a beefy stable demo covering the main parts of the game without some short turn limit then I might be able to use it for hooking my relatives.
Here, have some karma.
Did you read what I wrote at all? At no point did i say that i thought SP wasn't first.
aka Yes they have been upfront about being SP first. I am agreeing with what was being said which is why i said yes.
Add me and 5 others to the list of people that think this sucks.
I mean really ..no local hosting ?....your kidding right ? This is EA\Dice Bad company 2 or is this Stardock and the gamers bill of rights ?
We basicly feel screwed over and lied to.
I have 5 friends I lan with that basicly were looking to day one purchase this game
As soon as I told them, this is each one individually mind you.
no local server\hosting support = no buy , one for one,
Stardock , please fix this by releasing some kind of local server code at launch.
Call it a beta, call it unsupported, call it whatever.
Sorry about all the negativity but were really pissed off and disapointed
I understand the pain of getting friends to purchase games, but really if they cannot take your word for it and/or search various forums for other folks opinions then maybe it isn't the game for them. Yeah, you might lose a sale here and there scattered about, but there was no guarantee they'd buy the game even if it could be shared.
LAN gaming is about reducing as many problematic variables as possible to provide improved performance, stability and communication. LAN which "requires" WAN is not LAN... any IT person not from Stardock can explain the design. Basically if a game or ANY SOFTWARE requires the internet cloud it's WAN. WAN gaming is more unstable and slower than the same environment with LAN gaming because of the extra variables. Depending on where you live some ISPs are very unstable... nobody wants a LAN game to suddenly die because Stardock experienced a network hiccup or unexpectedly high volume of activity or downtime from server maintenance, etc., .
I'm not even sure who wants to sit down for hours and play a game like this multiplayer anyways >.>
Well, let's look at what you wrote.
If single player is first that means multiplayer is a second priority, right? If it is second to single player that means it is going to be less fleshed out and developed. I guess the question is, did you read what you wrote at all?
Why do you keep posting the same thing over and over again?
I don't mind the pain or time involved, but nothing is better than a real drive test of the game. Can you imagine only being able to hold the steering wheel of a sports car you wanted to buy and never actually drive the vehicle. It's my goal to have Elemental as popular as possible and based on what we're reading Stardock is raising walls which is going to decrease the number of customers(smaller gaming community) in exchange for higher short term profit.
Take a glance at the Dominions_3 forums on multiplayer activity.... one single turn can take almost 2hours to finish.
Well, Civ 4 is fairly popular online. I've played a fair bit of it, with people you know IRL it's quite a lot of fun (if you play over several sessions).
There was also supposed to be other MP modes that would reduce the time to play a game and make it work better. I wonder if those made it in for release?
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