There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.
No Copy Protection
Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever. However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates. But then, why should this be necessary?
Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.
So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers. We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product). This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.
So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental. Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).
LAN Games
There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends. Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.
#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.
#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.
#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.
#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game). This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players). Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.
What did Star Dock mean with finished? What do you mean by finished? I think everyone has a different opinion of this. For some it will be a game with LAN support from day 1 for others it wont.
I'm inclined to say that a multiplayer game without LAN support is unfinished, not that i care that much about LAN support, but I wouldnt hold Star Dock to their gamers bill of rights to, as i see it is a goal that they will try to uphold, they will of course fail but isnt what matters that they try/care?
I'd be interested to know how many sales would be lost if you allowed one serial key to let two people play over a LAN. And only for the first unique serial key, so basically you get one person who can play without having the game in a LAN match (LAN only, not internet games). Kinda like the 'spawn' disks you used to get with games, that would allow one person to connect to a multiplayer game per person who had a full disk, but a little less generous since you could only have one extra person in any LAN game no matter how many unique keys. Surely this wouldn't make too much difference because anyone who really likes the game will buy it themselves, this just allows people to have a little more fun with one person who doesn't have the game. Like I know my brother might enjoy messing around with me in the game for a little while, but he isn't really into strategy games so it wouldn't be worth us buying another copy. I know this is asking something for nothing (and it isn't done anymore), but it would generate good will towards Stardock. I can't believe that many sales would be lost by something like this, but I wouldn't really know. Just some thoughts.
Wow...you guys really don't think things through, do you? Frogboy left the thread b/c ya'll were really starting to upset him over the whole lan nitpicky thing, and you do realize that he is the one that decides how many of his company's resources go into multiplayer, if any. I am not a software company CEO, nor do i play one on tv, but if I saw these posts and I was in charge, you'd see multiplayer support sometime in 2012, if ever. The man has repeatedly, and emphatically, stated that this is a single player game with multiplayer tacked on to it.
Copy protection? Games like SC2 and the latest Prince of Persia require you be online to play them, at all. Is having to put in a serial # to get updates really that intrusive? Seriously. (Note that both the games above were cracked within 24 hours of release, making the copy protection pointless). FFS ppl, you have to put in your serial # to just to be able to post in BioWare's forums. For Elemental, you key the # in one time to Impulse and you can update/redownload the game for as long as Stardock is in business.
Not finished? The game is playable out of the box, with no (known) horrendous errors. Just because it doesn't have all the bells and whistles you want and or make you coffee in the morning doesn't mean that it isn't finished...and for the record, the entire crew at Stardock has said that this game will never be finished to their liking. I actually like that attitude, it means a buttload of updates that will be improving the game for some time to come.
This thread is a testament as to why EULAs are 1000's of lines long with about 12 lines of the important text interspersed inside.
Except it's not nitpicking. The game doesn't have LAN support. Saying that it does is simply wrong. It's also interesting to note that when pressed, he started going to the piracy angle:
First of all, if the game really has no copy protection, then by definition it won't care if I'm installing it on two computers at once on the LAN. (In fact the game uses GOO, which is DRM by definition. Friendly DRM perhaps, but still DRM.)
This is where it gets ugly. People are concerned that they can't play on a LAN without Internet, and he throws out the piracy card.
SC2 doesn't require you to be online to play single player. It does require you to be online to play multiplayer... and so does Elemental. The difference is what, exactly?
And actually, I'm not so sure about Elemental anymore:
It's not copy protection. It's not DRM. The game data comes from our servers. Please tell me how you're going to pirate that. Are they going to write their own AI? Are they going to produce all the XML data too? Are they going to send back all the moves the monsters make each turn? Spawn the goodie huts? Provide the spell books?
Let me say it again: It is a client/server game. The servers (our servers) are the ones serving the data, the moves, everything. Similarly, when you logon to this forum, you are talking to a bunch of servers which are sending you data.
- Brad
If multiplayer can only work on Stardocks servers because that's where the game AI and XML are, how does single player work when offline? So either this explanation is BS, or this is an online only game in single player too. Of course, there is no way to equate Ubi-style online only single player gaming with "no DRM", so I assume it's the former (though that might be a poor assumption all things considered).
Stardock's reputation was built on things like customer-friendly policies and the Gamer's bill of rights. So when instead of that we get no LAN support and flippant remarks about how it's a "non-issue" (when it clearly is an issue and has been for every game where this same change has been made), it's going to turn people off. Of course, we've been led to believe for a year that we'd have custom server support at release and we don't. The negative reaction is entirely expected.
Question: I have 2 computers connected to a router, with decent internet connection (I.E. it's not the issue of my question). Should my brother and myself want to play together, would we need to have to buy two copies of the game, or one will saffice?
Two.
Its not bullshit its stating the obvious. The multiplayer game is run on the server, everything is calculated on the server and then sent out to the clients.
When playing singleplayer you dont have a server do you? Everything is calculated on the players computer.
I believe that's the idea Hermes. Your PC will do the calculations for the Single Player Campaign/Sandbox stuff... or perhaps I'm misunderstanding.
Well you would be wrong. Everyone I know and have talked to about this subject (and there are quite a few) are in agreement that something like this would be fantastic. Some of us like to play old games and what happens if 10 years down the road Stardock does not exsit and we want to load the game and then patch? We would be out of luck unless we had one of these DVD's.
Sounds like your Trolling to me.
Then my computer can't act as a host in multiplayer... why? The stated explanation is that the AI isn't on my computer, that a server at Stardock is picking the moves. If that's actually true, then it would also apply to single player. What he said is quite clear: " Please tell me how you're going to pirate that. Are they going to write their own AI?"
I think it is likely that singleplayer games would be run from your own computer, otherwise there would need to be internet access all the time with single player. So I would say - single player games are run by own computer, MP run through Stardock servers, at least before LAN servers.
Best regards,Steven.
I guess he means that the only way to play multiplayer is the server software and they arn't releasing the server software so the only way to play multiplayer is via thier servers which means the server has the AI/calculations.
The question is IF they release the custom server software, will it be nessesary to authenticate via internet to join it (then Elemental is totaly not a LAN game at all).
I don't think Brad ever sugested it was a 'LAN game' though, he just said "install the game before your friends arrive for faster shenanagins". Everyone else took that as "full non internet LAN support".
Sorry, SC2 you have to be online to install it in the first place, and if you unplug the net, they give you a number to call to get the auth code to install the game...I don't think Elemental has that 'feature'.
Are you intentionally being dense? What part of client/server for multiplayer only do you not understand. Brad has stated many many times that the d/ling of .xml files for single player was for the BETA ONLY. Someone can take the gold version of the dvd, install it offline and never, ever have to sign online to play it or enter a serial # or anything, and install that version on as many computers as they like. Where is the DRM in that?
Don't like having to cough up a valid login/key for multiplayer? Then yeah, your motives are suspect at that point. Pirates playing SP offline don't hurt Stardock's servers...Pirates able to play online does hurt their servers (and the rest of those who want to play online...see Demigod release).
Also, the multiplayer game is a different one than the single player one...different features, different AI, etc. So the multiplayer AI is on Stardock's servers. Single player is on your local hard drive. There have been several discussions about modding the single player AI and where those .xml files are on the local hard drive. Did you not see them?
I don't remember where customer server support was promised at release (and I could be wrong, I simply don't remember reading it). I do remember that the emphasis was on the single player game, not the multiplayer one. I for one would be far more pissed off if they made me wait until the February date to play this game just so that you could have your custom LAN server. Your issues are a non-issue to the vast majority of us that aren't here for LAN play.
Again, were I in charge you'd get that custom server support in December. Of 2013. From the new guy on the team, when he wasn't busy making my coffee or out getting lunch for the office.
@ Tridus: How are you expecting to host something without the server software?
Yes when playing multiplayer, which is what he was referring to, then yes the server does run the AI, as it does in every other multiplayer game that use a client/server architecture for multiplayer.
That seems to be the most rational explanation, but that's not what he said. He said the Stardock servers are required because the AI is on them and not in the game (hence the "how do you pirate that?" comment). But the AI has to be in the game otherwise single player needs to be online as well, so the pirate comment doesn't make any sense.
If all that's really missing is the ability for someone to act as a host, why not just say that instead of talking about things as if they're not in the game client?
Last year when asked, the answer on LAN was "almost certainly". That's where the belief that it'd support LAN came from.
I do agree that Frog's posts in this thread arent exactly paragons of clarity, and that he uses the word LAN in a way that most gamers don't.
But it isnt so cryptic as to deduce that the singleplayer game is played online, like a browser game.
You're bitching and moaning because Stardock have said they might make the game more awesome post-release. Seriously. Quit being dicks, everyone.
You know it won't have "OMG PROPER LANZ0RZ" at release and the boss of the company has said it's something they're looking into post-release. What more do you want?!
If you want the "proper" LAN option sooner rather than later then make sure you play the game and play multiplayer games and bring it up on the forums in wishlists and whatnot. If nobody much bothers with the MP or the requests for LAN play dry up post-release then it's a moot point.
And if you're not planning on buying it anyway then fuck off. Actual customer wishes take priority. I want pink ponies for my Sovereign to ride.
I don't remember where customer server support was promised at release (and I could be wrong, I simply don't remember reading it).
It was not promised at release, you're right, but frogboy has stated that they intended to let us host our own servers before. I don't mind waiting, though, gives me more time to LAN one of the other games coming out now, and I'll still have some kickass game left later.
Yeah, my definition of LAN support is the standard one: can be played on a LAN.
It's the same one people used in the SC2 thread when bashing Blizzard. But now apparently we have a new one: Can be played on the Internet, including if people happen to be sharing the same Internet. That's not "LAN support" except in some redefined version where by LAN you mean "Internet".
But once it's installed, it plays just fine offline. Single time online activation isn't the same thing as "requires Internet access to play" ala Ubi.
Read the quote from Brad again, and this time take a minute to understand it. You can't say "how are they going to pirate it, write their own AI?" when the AI is in fact in the game. His entire point is that you can't do LAN play because you NEED Stardock's server to supply the AI.
If the AI is in fact in the client for single player, his argument is bullshit. What we're actually missing is just the ability to act as a server and host people. We're not missing AI, spellbooks, XML, or anything else he mentioned. So why bring it up at all?
What does piracy have to do with it? You can't play on a LAN unless it has Internet access. Piracy is being used as a way of marginalizing paying customers who are displeased that LAN play isn't supported (and neither are mods in multiplayer).
Different AI, really? What are you basing that on? Making up stuff doesn't count.
Mods are a pretty big feature of the game. Custom servers are required for modded multiplayer. It's been mentioned many times, and until very recently there was no indication at all that this wouldn't be supported at release. That's what lets me bring the Gamer's Bill of Rights into this, because how is it a "finished" game if one of the major features (modding) doesn't work at the same time as another feature (multiplayer) until sometime later in the future (maybe)?
If you were in charge, you'd be free to do that. I'd also be free to not buy games from your company, which is a right I'd choose to exercise.
I'm complaining because Stardock said they wouldn't release games in an unfinished state, and here we have a game that's IMO somewhat less then finished. You can't do modding and multiplayer at the same time, how is that "finished"? It's their Gamer's Bill of Rights, don't get mad at the customer for wondering what happened to it.
Sorry, but most of the people complaining have already bought the game. I've had it since beta 1. So, the people complaining about lack of LAN play are doing exactly what you just told them to: complaining about the lack of a feature they care about.
I like how Frogboy never actually said "This game has LAN Support", and everyone is jumping on him as if he did. He just gave instructions on how to install the game easily on your networked machines so people could come over and play. Reading comprehension isn't that difficult, people.
What is the process of "attaching" a serial key to an account?
It sounds like I have to use a serial key to install the game on multiple computers. But then when someone else wants to play on that system, they have to have their own serial key attached to their account.
What is the difference between installing with a serial key and attaching a serial key to an account?
I have one copy coming and want to install it on multiple PC's in my house. Then, if I can get enought interest with other friends, I assume they can purchase a key online and use their own account so we can play on LAN.
There will be no "conflict" between the original key I use to install on the LAN, and their NEW key which will be attached to their account?
However, this issue has developed momentum, whether or not it was a misunderstanding in the beginning. It needs to be resolved somehow - not sure exactly how though.
What can be done now to resolve this issue, given what has already happened in this thread and the unlikelihood of any serious clarification being enough to satisfy the various parties involved? Because we are as a community, and Stardock is too, hurting because of what has happened in this thread.
You sure about that?
Seems hard to setup our own unique servers for LAN play if there is in fact no LAN play.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
