There’s been a lot of discussion on these kinds of topics on recent games and I thought I’d give you our perspective on it.
No Copy Protection
Elemental, out of the box, like all of Stardock’s other games, has no copy protection whatsoever. However, you obviously need Internet access to get updates. But then, why should this be necessary?
Because Elemental, unlike our previous games, has really been designed to be a game that people can play for decades, this is something that has concerned us. Because we want to encourage people to have the latest version but at the same time, we are aware that some people are worried that 10 years from now, they won’t be able to get the “better” version.
So here is what we’re going to start doing on our developed titles: We’re going to start making archival DVD versions of the game that can be sent to customers. We already do this with Object Desktop (our most popular non-game product). This archival version would have no copy protection whatsoever. It would just be a DVD you can put into your machine.
So starting in October, what we will do is make archival DVD editions of our games starting with Galactic Civilizations II: Ultimate Edition and Elemental. Roughly every year or so, if there have been updates, we’ll create a new archival version of the game that people can have sent to them (it’ll just be a DVD).
LAN Games
There’s been a lot of questions of how someone would play Elemental on their LAN with their friends. Here’s my suggested way to do it with minimum hassle.
#1 You’ll need to install Impulse on the machines that will be playing the game. But that’s all. Just install and go to step 2.
#2 Go to http://anywhere.impulsedriven.com which is the web interface to Impulse. From here, you would download the web package of Elemental. As long as Impulse is installed on the machine, you can install the game.
#3 When you install, type in your serial #. If it’s on a LAN, just use your single DVD key, Impulse::Reactor’s GOO uses smart activation (i.e. it doesn’t have a “activation limit” type system) so you can just install it on the various machines on your LAN.
#4 When your friends come over to play, they will need, once in the game, to logon with their own accounts (so they or someone will have to provide them with a serial # to attach to their account but they can use it at your LAN in game). This is because on day 0, the data from the game is handled by our servers (this way, when we update the game data for balancing players don’t have to update their game which would be a real hassle for LAN players). Eventually we plan to release custom servers so that players can make their own stuff but we won’t have that ready at release.
I didn't think it was an unreasonable expectation, seeing as every multiplayer game I own on Impulse can be played via LAN with only one copy. Pretty much every LAN-capable game I own even outside of Impulse can, though most games I own are older games.
Suffice to say, I don't know what I'll do, whether it's try to modify the game, or just reluctantly hold off on multiplayer until the price drops. As a college student, I love playing LAN games. LAN with Sins or Demigod is awesome, and sure people buy it . I'm pretty pissed off that I spent $80 on the limited edition, expecting it to actually be DRM-free.
The times they are a changing. Whether for good or bad, it seems many have to catch up with the new reality.
@Beric01
"Pretty much every LAN-capable game I own even outside of Impulse can, though most games I own are older games."
In the interest of fairness why don't you list the games you mean and the year they were released?
I have games so old that you had to use a paper wheel and match up symbols to get codes (every time) just to start the game... What is the difference between that then and today having to provide a serial # (one time ffs) to play?
What used to be and what is are not the same. If you want the same then play those and be happy. Griping about new business models that make perfect sense just make everyone look ignorant of the times.
As to the Guinea Pig thought. It does suck bad when they force your weak sorry ass to join these Beta programs. Next time anyone who doen't want to be a Guinea Pig for the MAN, should hide under their bed. They can't force you to come out from under your bed you know.
Being bridged or gated to a WAN does not make a LAN any less of one. This is why many of these arguments don't make sense. The overwhelming majority of residential LANs have internet access, but you'd argue that they then are no longer LANs. Which is silly and completely beside the point.
Purplepaladin's complaint concerning his LAN-party-in-the-woods, I can understand, but that puts him in a minority (Elemental multiplayers) of a minority (on LAN) of a minority (without internet) of players. It's not something most people are going to do--if you're doing a LAN party, you're generally just going to go over to someone's home, and they will most very likely have internet.
All the people arguing "you can't play the game on a LAN!!" or "It's not a LAN if it has an internet connection!" are obfuscating the issues and are doing themselves and us a great disservice here. There are a couple of real complaints here underlying most of them and it'd be a lot more constructive if you simply came out with them directly.
1) You don't want to have to connect to the Internet to play MP.
2) You want to use mods in MP.
3) You want IPX MP.
4) You want to be able to host an entire LAN with one copy.
5) You're angry that some or all of these won't be resolved on release, even if they are shortly later.
Now, we've already made it clear that we'll probably have the custom server app out in the near-to-mid term post-release if there's demand. That may (I'm not certain on how it'll be implemented) solve #1 and will definitely solve #2. Issue #3 I wouldn't hold my breath for, as there will probably be a server browser list either way. But again that depends on the custom server implementation.
Issue #4 is a separate discussion. We allowed two seats per license with Sins and IIRC Demigod also, but MP was also a somewhat bigger factor in Sins due to the lack of campaign and was the primary factor in Demigod. With Elemental, as Brad has said it's a single-player game with MP added. Whether or not the custom server changes this depends on the implementation, and there may be other methods we could pursue too if we choose to allow it. But this isn't something we're planning to or that I'd expect to be changed. The two-seat allowance was already rare when we did it with Sins--pretty much nobody does it anymore. And while you can argue that we allowed it in the past, it's hardly unreasonable to ask that people playing the game have bought the game.
If there are issues other than these, then please just bring them up directly. The definition-of-a-LAN nonsense is not productive in the least, so lets just drop that.
LAN-capable with only one copy, other than Demigod and SoaSE, that I own.
Battlefield 2 complete collection
Age of Empires 3
Europa Universals 3
Supreme Commander
Majesty 2 (2010)
Only LAN game I own that isn't is GRID, and I bought 2 copies for $7.50 each, which was reasonable. I have a few other 1-copy LAN games I play singleplayer only, but I bought each of them for Dirt 2 cheap as well.
I'd be interested to see how many of those explicitly allow it, and how many simply don't do anything that prevents it.
I agree on this discussion having a lot of strange proxy arguments where people aren't saying what they really want or are misrepresenting their motivations for wanting it.
I'd like to play Elemental MP on a LAN with my daughters using the license I've purchased. If I can't have that, so be it, I'll play SP Elemental and play MP Diablo 2 or Sins of a Solar Empire or Heroes of Might and Magic 3 or GalCiv 2 with them. Or, I'll just play one of the games on Wii with them that we can all enjoy together with a single license. But as a customer, and as a beta tester from stage 1 who has done my level best to be helpful, I'd like to be able to play MP with family members on our own computers in our own home without buying multiple licenses, which I won't do.
Not satisfying that desire is perfectly fair for Stardock to do, but the ability to do it is one of the things that has drawn me to your company's past games.
from my experience IPX/SPX AND NETBEUI protocols was almost dead in windows xp in that it had to be EXPLICITY installed, unlike previous windows where it was installed by default,and in windows vista and later in can not be installed, so is a dead issue for the latest two versions of windows and extremely sick in the oldest supported windows.
harpo
Having experience with 4/5 of those games in lan play it's really that they don't do anything to prevent it. I don't know about majesty 2 but I'd suspect it's something similar. I seem to recall age of empires 3 requiring you to at least have different CD Keys for all the people playing, you definitely did with AOE 2 but it's been a long time since I played either.
I don't suppose you've got any information on the possibility of hotseat being implemented. It would go a long way for people wanting to show the game to friends but still having the limitations presented by hotseat play (long long games without simultaneous turns and so on) Even with the requirement of connecting to the internet to do it, hotseat would probably add to sales a bit.
Seriously...I don't understand you lads....I am absolutely fine with the 1 copy = 1 license rule. Perhaps I am used to it?...because each and every game which I bought "worked" like this in MP. [All of the Call of Duty games, WoW etc.]
Actualy WoW has a trial which is fully useable for 10 days (recruit a friend) and THEN they have to pay. (And you get a super awesome mount if they do pay).
Getting large amounts of people to play in LAN or even over internet is hard. They need demos and if its about the multiplayer they need a multiplayer demo. Its not a big issue for me because I have no friends.
It seems like it will be a moot point anyway since it sounds like the multiplayer is not going to have lots of the game in it (if you read between the lines of interview respones etc). They never said it was going to be a big multiplayer game - we just wanted it to be. oh well.
Still excited for single player though.
It's really not a big deal if all copies are on my own PC's anyway.
And honestly, aren't you guys all about not hurting the paying customers? People can and will hack it for singleplayer and LAN play. I'd like to keep it honest. I've bought all of my Stardock games at full price directly from the source (Impulse), something I don't do with any other game company. I do this because I respect Stardock and their stance on good games, good AI and a good singleplayer experience, and no DRM.
Just out of curiousity, Tormy, do you have kids?
In any case, this isn't something I'm really upset about. It's just with the lack of things to talk about now that the beta is over, I felt like throwing my 2 cents worth in.
Technically speaking, someone who plays it for free is not a paying customer. You are, and the game functions perfectly for you, but if someone else wants to play it, it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to become a paying customer.
That said, some leniency isn't a bad thing by any means, families traditionally share after all, and while they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a family member playing and a random person playing, allowing an extra person would be nice.
But still, it's not unreasonable at all to expect people to pay for the game to play it.
I would agree, but my brother and I are poor college students. If we occasionally want to play a LAN game, or a friend wants to try one out, 1 extra person would be extremely convenient. I'm already hurting my college education by my gaming hobby.
Anyway, I've said enough about this for now. I wouldn't be asking for something like this if I didn't love the game and want to let others try it out. I'm guessing Stardock will change their policy later on anyway. For now, I'll be playing singleplayer and maybe some online.
How about 6. We were told that MP, if included, and no one forced anyone to include it, would be fully supported. So far all I've heard about muliplayer is what it can't do. It is only played on fixed maps, forced to connect to internet, does not have a full tech tree or spellbook, does not support mods, and I don't if there is an AI available or coop or not. How about 6 be support AND information for MP. Stop listening to the SP only crowd. They are not customer base for MP. MP players are your customer base for MP.
No 4 is not really an issue for me, but I can understand why assumptions were made based on Stardock's previous stance on the issue.
"forced to connect to internet"
This is when it gets weird.
So now you feel it is wrong for the game to offer MP play via the Internet?
Frog already said he expects most people to play co-op, so of course it's in. And earlier in this thread even he mentioned the AI coming from SD's server, so obviously that's in, too.
Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I am listing what I have heard about MP. This is not a list of things I take issue with but the only information I have. If I play MP, personally, it will be over the internet. It is, however, not necessarily a list of exciting, positive things to look forward to is it.
I'm not going to split hairs with you, but there is AI in Majesty 2, as in the units actually function and some independently. What there is not in Majest 2 is an AI to play against. Frogboy has said a lot of things, some of it wound up not being true. I would just like it verified as in it is in the game, day 0 or for sure coming.
Nop.
PS. [Now that I think about it....yeah, perhaps it's "irritating" that you must buy the game for your kids as well.]
Quoting Nesrie, reply 393Quoting John_Hughes, reply 391"forced to connect to internet"This is when it gets weird. So now you feel it is wrong for the game to offer MP play via the Internet?Perhaps you misread what I wrote. I am listing what I have heard about MP. This is not a list of things I take issue with but the only information I have. If I play MP, personally, it will be over the internet. It is, however, not necessarily a list of exciting, positive things to look forward to is it.
Tbis thread is getting long in the tooth but I have been in the Beta since day 0 and to hear that MP would require some work after launch day in no way surprises me, what surprises me is that anyone else who has been in the Beta, from v2 on even, doesn't also see it that way.
There has been no promises made and to complain and make statements, no everyone, about "bad design" now is not very fair to the team.
If anything, the fact they are adding MP at all to a 4X TB game is admirable and a look into the possible future for this Genre. What we don't want to is discourage SD to continue to put MP on the list of "things to do" come whatever they do.
That would be a damn shame indeed.
I was not in Beta. There are several TBS games that have strong multiplayer components. Stardock has made several statements about MP that do not seem to be in the game. At no point did they say they were going to add a half-finished MP component to the game, but if they have, please do point me in the right direction.
TRUE, however it makes the game software WAN only and thus the game software is WAN gaming and not LAN gaming. This entire time we've been discussing how this is not LAN gaming software, but WAN gaming software. If a game stops/crashes because of a loss of internet then it's "obviously" WAN gaming software.
[quote who="kryo" reply="378" id="2717316"]
The overwhelming majority of residential LANs have internet access, but you'd argue that they then are no longer LANs. Which is silly and completely beside the point.
NOBODY has written anything like that... you are confusing hardware and we're discussing the software. As I've said from the beginning any LAN (software) which requires WAN is not LAN !
You've forgotten another minority which is all the people who have "unstable/unreliable" internet. Any ISP has a temporary outage and CRASH the game goes down. The software should be as reliable as possible which means reducing/removing unnecessary components such as far away servers and even the internet. My goal is to get the game Elemental to as many gamers as possible so its FAME carries for a demand for expansions and possibly even movies or more. Restrictions creates a bottleneck for the number of gamers.
Half of the list looks correct... what would satisfy the vast majority of multiplayer gamers include:
1) We don't want to have to connect to the Internet to play MP... (if you can't do LAN without internet provide PBEM and HotSeat)
2) We want to use mods in MP. (We don't mind having to place the mod files ourselves, but it would be nice if the host could push out the files.)
3) Want IPX in MP... (I didn't see anyone request this, but it's possible I missed it.)
4) MP games need an adjustable timer so the game automatically continues after xxx amount of minutes.
5) Please consider the same design as Sins and Demigod where one copy serves two for multiplayer... it's an olive branch and/or lure for bringing new customers and a larger gaming community. OR Consider something along the design of what the original DIABLO provided where others could play, but were limited to one character.... thus Elemental could limit them to one race/nation which cannot be modded.
Here is one. From the Horses mouth so to speak.
https://forums.elementalgame.com/391013
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