UFO's and Aliens. Do they exist? Do you think there's even a chance that there is other intelligent life in our galaxy or universe or do you think we Humans are the only intelligent life in all of creation? These are questions that we as a species, man-kind, have asked since as far as our recorded history goes back. Even Ancient man, with no knowledge of modern science or modern understanding of what "Space" was, would look to the night sky at the twinkling stars and wonder...."Are we truly alone?".
Honestly, I've always thought aliens existed. Whether or not they've actually visited this planet at any point in it's history I don't know and I don't think anyone can truly say one way or the other and have definitive proof. Of course there is probably just as much "proof" that aliens don't exist as there is that they do, but, at least we are now discovering for a Fact that there is or was "some form" of life in the universe outside of the planet Earth. We know from microscopic fossils in martian rocks that at one point millions of years ago there was at the very least Single Celled life on Mars. We found this out back in the late 90's. Didn't hear about it? That's not surprising since I only found out about it because of a 10 second mention on ABC's "World News Tonight" back in 96-97. Today how-ever you can research this for your-self as many papers and articles have been published on the subject. A quick Google Search will lead you to many results such as these:
Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Life on Early Mars Source: www.solarviews.com Article from 1997
Fossil Life in Martian Rock Found in Antarctica ? Source: http://spider.seds.org/spider/Mars/Marsrock/marsrocks.html Article from 1996
Proof of Life in Three Martian Rocks May Come This Year Source: www.popsci.com Article from 2010
This is enough in my eyes to call it "Definitive Proof", they're just waiting on the specific results so they can say it's a fact without a shadow of a doubt, and I respect them for waiting and taking it slow and doing the science the right way. A claim such as this can't be rushed no matter how apparent the results of any "proof" might be.
While I do believe in intelligent life outside of this planet, I'm still a skeptic. I mostly believe in what I can see with my own eyes. What I can feel with my own two hands. I think it's important for anyone doing any Serious research into the matter to be a skeptic and to try to dis-prove or debunk as many fakes as possible. With our advances in computers and video editing and special effects it's easier than ever for the nut-jobs and conspiracy wackos out there to make convincing "proof" on their own and it's people like those that bring a bad ilk to any Serious research into the matter. Sadly there are a lot of fakers and crazy people out there working in both directions of the debate. There are people who make fake videos of UFO's and try to pass them off as real and there are various groups and religious zealots who try to prove that Everything is fake and say that None Of It is real and anyone who believes there is intelligent non-human life in the universe is a moron or a liar.
Worse yet there are many people out there who are terrified of the idea that aliens may exist. Some people are so closed minded that no matter what scientific advances we may make or what we may learn about the universe and life its-self, they will Never believe that alien life exists even if aliens were to land on the White-House lawn and announce to the world that they are real and that they are here. Even if that did happen (which of course it hasn't) there would be a certain percentage of the world's population that would say it was faked, even if the proof was pointing a particle cannon at their head.
I'm about to tell a story I've never told publicly before. I've never told it honestly because I'm a little afraid of what it may make people think in regards to my sanity. If you choose to believe it, that's great. If you choose not to believe it, that's great too. One thing I do know for sure, I know what I saw...
Note: Before I get into the story, keep in mind that I was a kid. I was 13 or 14 years old. I had never done any drugs, didn't smoke cigs, didn't drink, and I wasn't a wild kid with a crazy imagination. I never had an "imaginary friend" at any point and even when I did grow up and start "partying" I've never had a hallucination nor have I ever saw something that I wasn't completely sure was right in front of me (magic tricks aside).
It was the summer of the year that my family moved from Deland in Volusia County out to Lake Mack in Lake County, Florida. I had to go to summer school that year to make up a failing English grade in 7th grade English (long story but basically I got screwed out of the grade I should have received). Because there weren't that many kids in my area going to summer school that year all of us in the neighborhood had to meet down at the corner store which was the only bus-stop for summer school that year. School started at 7 A.M. and was all the way in Leesburg (almost an hour from my house). We kids had to be at the bus-stop at 5:30 A.M. because it was a very long ride all the way to Leesburg from where we were in Lake Mack and there were other students to stop and pick up along the way. I was walking to the bus-stop down a long winding road. It was a normal paved road and there were houses and trailers all over the place. Even though the road was deserted because it was so early in the morning it was still a populated and crowded neighborhood. As I was rounding the bends I noticed all the tall pine trees were swaying back and forth pretty hard like there was about to be a storm, but oddly enough I couldn't feel any wind. I'm not going to say there wasn't any wind, there very well could have been and the currents were too high off the ground for me to feel the wind, but, I didn't actually feel any wind.
I was looking up at the tops of the pine trees when a very Large Triangle came out over the trees. At first I thought it was a helicopter and maybe I was seeing the lights on the ends of the rotors but then two things hit me. First, I couldn't hear Any noise. None what-so-ever. Second, if the lights I saw were on the ends of the rotors they would have been spinning very fast and not been stationary. They were also way too far apart to be rotor blades. The object was at least 3 times as high up as the trees, maybe 4 times as high, and it...was....Massive. I'm talking like the size of a Boeing 747, Massive. I quickly realized there was no way in hell that it was a helicopter. There were no flashing lights on it. They were on steadily. There were four lights in total. One larger light in the center and three more slightly smaller lights, one at each tip of the Triangle. I had seen plenty of helicopters up close, even military ones as I've lived close to Deland Airport for most of my time in Deland and seen plenty of air shows and air planes and helicopters first hand. I've seen both the Apache and the smaller Cobra Attack Chopper that it shares it's design with. It's also of note that out in Lake Mack in Lake County we were technically on the out-skirts of the Ocala National Forrest. The army had a bombing range on the far edge of the forrest and at least 3 or 4 times a year you could hear the bombs being dropped and all you had to do was go outside when the planes or helicopters were flying over-head to see what vehicles were doing the bombing. Lake Mack was right underneath their flight path for a long time even though the bombing range its-self was a good 60 or 70 miles away.
Anyway, when I realized just what it was I was looking at....well, I'm not ashamed to admit I got scared and started running for the bus-stop. I didn't look back and I didn't slow down. When I finally got to the point where I could see the store and see the other kids through the darkness standing under the street light at the store I stopped running. I didn't want the other kids thinking I was too scared to walk to the bus-stop in the dark, which I wasn't. I've never been afraid of the dark, not even as a small child. At that point when I stopped running I took the time to look behind me. Not surprisingly I didn't see anything. Nothing. No ship, no Triangle, no wind, and the trees were as still as could be since there was no wind.
I'm not gonna say I know for sure that it was aliens. I don't and to surmise that with no further evidence would be kinda stupid in my eyes. What I do know is that I have no idea what it was and it WASN'T a conventional aircraft. I honestly don't know what It was, but I do know I have Never seen Anything like It nor have I since. That one experience has led me to believe in intelligent life outside of this planet. I can't say it Was aliens. I can say I Think it was, because I have no other explanation for it.
So.....what do YOU believe? Do YOU think we're alone in the universe? Or do YOU think there is far more out there then we could ever dream is possible?
Firstly, by 'clearer' I meant, 'clearer that I'm not referring to religion'.
But speaking of taking the time to look at things, your above statement shows that you haven't actually read my points which you claim to disagree with.
The observable properties of matter/energy necessitate that it must have been 'first caused/created', but we cannot posit the same thing about the creator, because we are unable to observe the properties of the creator in order to come to the same conclusion. So, as far as we know, there is no reason that the prime mover could not have always existed, but the nature of our universe shows a need for a first cause, as infinite regression would leave us with no beginning, and in this existence, what doesn't begin, is not.
Actually, quite the opposite.
If you cannot concede at this point, there is no point continuing. St. Thomas Aquinas' arguments (which you echo) were refuted in his own time...yet you continue.
I continue because I disagree with the refutations. You don't have to agree, and we can leave it here.
Is that a rude word or am I getting mixed up again?
"fallacious" is cunning linguistics....
Comes to him naturally, I bet. If I was a betting girl.
If you was a betting girl.... you'd have a dollar each way on aliens landing somewhere on the planet before the end of the century.
Must there be, as you say, a beginning? Duh ...... everything must begin somewhere. Its just that knowing the some'when' is beyond our understanding and that because we are not alive long enough as a species to understand it. Think of a circle. No beginning and no end. Now apply that to causality. A > B > C = A. Round and round, over and over. Cyclic universe(s). Now go way back and try to envision a distant past untold billions of years ago. Something can be created from nothing. Or can it? Could be the 'nothing' is nothing more than what you cannot see. Vacuum energy, zero point energy among others. These two things have actually been recorded dozens of times so their existence is proven.
Here's something else along the same lines. just because you can't see a thing does not mean it isn't there. You just can't see it. Sub-atomic particles, quarks and such come to mind. So do ghosts for that matter. Other dimensions which must exist and do. Time itself is another dimension, a fourth one if you will. Apply your logic such that it is to quantum theory and you just might get an inkling. Remember i said theory which in this case applies even more strongly as the quantum universe is far from understood. Time within this universe actually runs backwards and one particle here 'knows what its twin is doing half a universe away. String theory comes into play here. There are, at present, three different forms of string theory. The most likely of which, M Theory, is the closest to explaining, in part only, some of the more sticking points. Your logic is somewhat convoluted. No disrespect intended.
Man, this Science/Religion(God/Mover/Alpha/0/etc) stuff is like amoebaes trying to understand what the human being, in which they are, is.
Cats are the answer.
Every cat knows it's the centre of the universe. So, nothing else matters...
They were worshipped in Egypt.
and i thought it was 42.
"Every cat knows it's the centre of the universe. So, nothing else matters..."
When Universes collide.....
A Tale Of Two Kitties .....
Doesn't always work out.... two kitties.
They hate to share the same sandbox... thus the centre of even 2 collided universes is often not big enough.
Had a cat like that once... the entire neighbourhood was the centre of his universe, and he was mean enough to enforce it.
If you agree that everything must have a beginning, then the causality you referred to for a circular cyclic universe would not apply unless there was a determined outside interference to initiate the motion by providing the original and first cause. Though (if I've understood you correctly) if we are then to assume that at some point there will be an event that simulates this first cause when the causality circle loops back to the first event (i.e. big bang), then we must infer that this universe is in a time loop, and as such is strictly bound to repeating the exact same set of events in order to reproduce the exact same causality chain that will keep the loop intact.
To illustrate,
First Circle:
Prime Cause->A->B->C->
Every Subsequent Circle:
C->A->B->C->A->......
-------------------------->Time repeating->
The big bang->big crunch coil model cycle is less strict, leaving room for variation of events, as it only requires that the universe expands and contracts, and every bang and crunch is 'new', as time is in a continuum state and not a loop state.
While I get intrigued with interesting scientific theories (whether they pan out or not), I try to rely on what is currently more solid, and adjust when good scientific method shows that one explanation is more evidenced than the current one. So, while I freely admit that there is much that we don't know, I only try to posit based on what we think we do know with a great degree of certainty. For example, I won't take a knife to my throat, as I'm quite sure it would cause me injury, and I don't want that.
As for the 'when' of beginning, for the purpose of this discussion, it is unimportant. It is important to note though, that you are quite literally correct when you say that we are talking about something outside of our understanding. All of our logic is based on what exists in this universe, and all of the possibilities, concepts, realities, and limits we know of are based on what the structure of this existence allows (being that we are a part of it). So, when we refer to a 'prime mover' who is not of this universe, we cannot apply any of our limits or logic to this being. We cannot even say that this being is limited or limitless, because the concept may not even apply.
The only reason we assert the existence of the prime mover, is that when we examine our own existence, we find that this is the only piece of the puzzle that will fit, and that will allow that we exist at all. Basically that is saying, in order to exist, we needed some agent that is not of our own existence (and therefore not subject to its laws) to initiate this existence, as based on its properties, this existence needs initiation, and cannot initiate itself. The details of this I have stated before.
Quick, somebody break out the cat litter...
(clears throat) To reiterate, cats are aliens...aliens are cats. To believe in one is to believe in the other therefore since cats exist so do aliens. End of story... (reply #570?...me believes we have far too much time on our hands, peeps!)
Fine, but what theory or 'amount of certainty' leads anyone to 'magic man in the sky'?
Ahh, I see. You think the human understanding of the universe, or existence is complete. By which you mean it's incomplete, so therefore we have to explain everything with the 'magic man in the sky'. Idiocy which doesn't even need refutation.
We? No, you may find this. Others clearly do not find the only piece of the puzzle which does not fit MUST BE a 'magic man in the sky'. Again, we could go round asking you the question of why you cannot accept any other theory on the 'creation' of the universe other than one which by its nature is unprovable.
Oddly enough there are those who believe quite strongly in the 'magic man in the sky' who would put that knife to their throat, and who actually do so in figurative ways. But that's neither here nor there. Your argument boils down to 'I don't understand it, so it must be god'.
Cool stuff, but like a layman always says and will probably always say it, Seeing is believing. I personally don't doubt there is some form of intelligence in our universe parallel or otherwise, but I doubt if anyone or that one person who does know about will come forth and claim to have really been there for fear he might either be Lynch mobbed or called an insane crazy. If I had a chance to explore or for some fluke be transported into a weird Universe I would be considered food, dead meat, and or a crazy nut in their place. I am not trying to debunk the idea but look at in their point of view, would you consider another person from a different place a danger until his background proves true and or that being has fully got our trust? Till then that entity is considered dangerous. God was Considered dangerous until he was fully trusted. Food for thought
@Shadowtongue.
The assumptions in your statements seem to be irrespective of what you are quoting of mine. Meaning to say that while anything you say may or may not be correct, it doesn't flow in response to what I have said, as it fails to address the details or 'meat' of the issue.
Furthermore, I think you need to make a distinction in your mind between what you are accustomed to hearing from religious creationists, and what I am actually saying, and that would require that you actually read and understand it. This impression stems from your reference to 'magic man in the sky'. You will note that I do not refer to the prime mover as a man or mortal, and I do not suppose any theoretical location, and neither do I refer to the prime cause as a magical act in any manner that a thing can be referred to. On top of that, I am not promoting any particular religious belief, other than what could be called religious if you equate a non-descript prime mover with something like a biblical God.
As for what you've summarised the argument to, the statements I have made are actually structured in a relatively contrary way to what you have figured. That is, it is more along the lines of "Because of what we do understand, a prime mover is necessary."
Have you systematically refuted the logic of my statements? No.
Have you provided an alternative realistic explanation? No.
Have you actually said anything applicable and of substance? No.
Either show where the logic is flawed, and/or provide a more fitting explanation. Otherwise there's really no point continuing.
I was really unaware that a statement as stupid as 'Because of what we do understand, a prime mover is necessary.' required any refutation. Indeed I have said that in near every post I have made in reply to your continued assault on the principles of scientific inquiry.
I'll ask again. What is it that you think we do understand? Though you've answered that many times by saying that there is much which we do not understand. Then you make the leap to magic.
And yes, that's what you are doing. I don't care if you want to pretend your 'prime mover' is something other than god by any other name, everyone reading this thread sees right though your transparency.
And further just how brazen are you to suggest that you have offered a 'realistic explanation'? How on earth is something beyond logic realistic? Oh I know... it's not on earth...
But ultimately your argument fails on the ground of your incorrect notion that causality is necessary. Of course others have pointed out that you are not the first misguided soul to make this argument, and much wiser people than those of us discussing this with you have already destroyed their weak arguments.
Anyway, as to what I think created the universe. I do not know, I find many of the theories to be intriguing, so long as they don't leap to wild speculation requiring some kind of magician to have set everything in motion. No, not because that couldn't have happened, because it cannot be proven, and because it begs the very question you chose to sidestep. Sure, you don't like the idea of infinite recursion, but that hardly address the issue it poses for your position.
Seems as likely to me that the universe simply 'is', as if it required something else to simply 'be' to create it. Actually it seems more likely.
Istari...I think you need to qualify your statements.
Being inclusive with the use of "what WE understand there must be a prime mover...." [whatever]
Is quite DEFINITELY wrong.
"WE" do no such thing.
If you must, use the words "some people", or even if you wish to exaggerate you can say "many people", but do NOT be inclusive of those who will not want to be so 'presumed'.
@Shadowtongue
I will now sum up your arguments, but I'll try to be a little kinder (and more honest) than you:
You are wrong Istari, because of something I'm not mentioning for some reason.
I (and I believe others in this forum) am a mind reader, and I see what you really mean, despite you having denied it, and despite you not having relied upon anything to do with it for your arguments, and indeed not mentioning it at all. Therefore, I have nothing to actually base this on, but you are a bible basher Istari.
I don't know how the universe came to be, although I'm completely certain that it's not the way you say, because it cannot be, for reasons unknown.
I haven't demonstrated that causality is not necessary, though I'm sure it isn't, for reasons I'm not mentioning for some reason.
You spoke of causality chains and the absurdity of infinite regression, but I'm referring to your conclusion as a wild magical leap, without addressing the points.
You are an idiot Istari, and despite not having shown how that is, I don't have to refute anything you say in order to prove you wrong, because you are an idiot.
@Jafo
Of course I don't mean to include people who don't agree with me when I say 'we'. Admittedly though, I could have stated it better.
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