UFO's and Aliens. Do they exist? Do you think there's even a chance that there is other intelligent life in our galaxy or universe or do you think we Humans are the only intelligent life in all of creation? These are questions that we as a species, man-kind, have asked since as far as our recorded history goes back. Even Ancient man, with no knowledge of modern science or modern understanding of what "Space" was, would look to the night sky at the twinkling stars and wonder...."Are we truly alone?".
Honestly, I've always thought aliens existed. Whether or not they've actually visited this planet at any point in it's history I don't know and I don't think anyone can truly say one way or the other and have definitive proof. Of course there is probably just as much "proof" that aliens don't exist as there is that they do, but, at least we are now discovering for a Fact that there is or was "some form" of life in the universe outside of the planet Earth. We know from microscopic fossils in martian rocks that at one point millions of years ago there was at the very least Single Celled life on Mars. We found this out back in the late 90's. Didn't hear about it? That's not surprising since I only found out about it because of a 10 second mention on ABC's "World News Tonight" back in 96-97. Today how-ever you can research this for your-self as many papers and articles have been published on the subject. A quick Google Search will lead you to many results such as these:
Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Life on Early Mars Source: www.solarviews.com Article from 1997
Fossil Life in Martian Rock Found in Antarctica ? Source: http://spider.seds.org/spider/Mars/Marsrock/marsrocks.html Article from 1996
Proof of Life in Three Martian Rocks May Come This Year Source: www.popsci.com Article from 2010
This is enough in my eyes to call it "Definitive Proof", they're just waiting on the specific results so they can say it's a fact without a shadow of a doubt, and I respect them for waiting and taking it slow and doing the science the right way. A claim such as this can't be rushed no matter how apparent the results of any "proof" might be.
While I do believe in intelligent life outside of this planet, I'm still a skeptic. I mostly believe in what I can see with my own eyes. What I can feel with my own two hands. I think it's important for anyone doing any Serious research into the matter to be a skeptic and to try to dis-prove or debunk as many fakes as possible. With our advances in computers and video editing and special effects it's easier than ever for the nut-jobs and conspiracy wackos out there to make convincing "proof" on their own and it's people like those that bring a bad ilk to any Serious research into the matter. Sadly there are a lot of fakers and crazy people out there working in both directions of the debate. There are people who make fake videos of UFO's and try to pass them off as real and there are various groups and religious zealots who try to prove that Everything is fake and say that None Of It is real and anyone who believes there is intelligent non-human life in the universe is a moron or a liar.
Worse yet there are many people out there who are terrified of the idea that aliens may exist. Some people are so closed minded that no matter what scientific advances we may make or what we may learn about the universe and life its-self, they will Never believe that alien life exists even if aliens were to land on the White-House lawn and announce to the world that they are real and that they are here. Even if that did happen (which of course it hasn't) there would be a certain percentage of the world's population that would say it was faked, even if the proof was pointing a particle cannon at their head.
I'm about to tell a story I've never told publicly before. I've never told it honestly because I'm a little afraid of what it may make people think in regards to my sanity. If you choose to believe it, that's great. If you choose not to believe it, that's great too. One thing I do know for sure, I know what I saw...
Note: Before I get into the story, keep in mind that I was a kid. I was 13 or 14 years old. I had never done any drugs, didn't smoke cigs, didn't drink, and I wasn't a wild kid with a crazy imagination. I never had an "imaginary friend" at any point and even when I did grow up and start "partying" I've never had a hallucination nor have I ever saw something that I wasn't completely sure was right in front of me (magic tricks aside).
It was the summer of the year that my family moved from Deland in Volusia County out to Lake Mack in Lake County, Florida. I had to go to summer school that year to make up a failing English grade in 7th grade English (long story but basically I got screwed out of the grade I should have received). Because there weren't that many kids in my area going to summer school that year all of us in the neighborhood had to meet down at the corner store which was the only bus-stop for summer school that year. School started at 7 A.M. and was all the way in Leesburg (almost an hour from my house). We kids had to be at the bus-stop at 5:30 A.M. because it was a very long ride all the way to Leesburg from where we were in Lake Mack and there were other students to stop and pick up along the way. I was walking to the bus-stop down a long winding road. It was a normal paved road and there were houses and trailers all over the place. Even though the road was deserted because it was so early in the morning it was still a populated and crowded neighborhood. As I was rounding the bends I noticed all the tall pine trees were swaying back and forth pretty hard like there was about to be a storm, but oddly enough I couldn't feel any wind. I'm not going to say there wasn't any wind, there very well could have been and the currents were too high off the ground for me to feel the wind, but, I didn't actually feel any wind.
I was looking up at the tops of the pine trees when a very Large Triangle came out over the trees. At first I thought it was a helicopter and maybe I was seeing the lights on the ends of the rotors but then two things hit me. First, I couldn't hear Any noise. None what-so-ever. Second, if the lights I saw were on the ends of the rotors they would have been spinning very fast and not been stationary. They were also way too far apart to be rotor blades. The object was at least 3 times as high up as the trees, maybe 4 times as high, and it...was....Massive. I'm talking like the size of a Boeing 747, Massive. I quickly realized there was no way in hell that it was a helicopter. There were no flashing lights on it. They were on steadily. There were four lights in total. One larger light in the center and three more slightly smaller lights, one at each tip of the Triangle. I had seen plenty of helicopters up close, even military ones as I've lived close to Deland Airport for most of my time in Deland and seen plenty of air shows and air planes and helicopters first hand. I've seen both the Apache and the smaller Cobra Attack Chopper that it shares it's design with. It's also of note that out in Lake Mack in Lake County we were technically on the out-skirts of the Ocala National Forrest. The army had a bombing range on the far edge of the forrest and at least 3 or 4 times a year you could hear the bombs being dropped and all you had to do was go outside when the planes or helicopters were flying over-head to see what vehicles were doing the bombing. Lake Mack was right underneath their flight path for a long time even though the bombing range its-self was a good 60 or 70 miles away.
Anyway, when I realized just what it was I was looking at....well, I'm not ashamed to admit I got scared and started running for the bus-stop. I didn't look back and I didn't slow down. When I finally got to the point where I could see the store and see the other kids through the darkness standing under the street light at the store I stopped running. I didn't want the other kids thinking I was too scared to walk to the bus-stop in the dark, which I wasn't. I've never been afraid of the dark, not even as a small child. At that point when I stopped running I took the time to look behind me. Not surprisingly I didn't see anything. Nothing. No ship, no Triangle, no wind, and the trees were as still as could be since there was no wind.
I'm not gonna say I know for sure that it was aliens. I don't and to surmise that with no further evidence would be kinda stupid in my eyes. What I do know is that I have no idea what it was and it WASN'T a conventional aircraft. I honestly don't know what It was, but I do know I have Never seen Anything like It nor have I since. That one experience has led me to believe in intelligent life outside of this planet. I can't say it Was aliens. I can say I Think it was, because I have no other explanation for it.
So.....what do YOU believe? Do YOU think we're alone in the universe? Or do YOU think there is far more out there then we could ever dream is possible?
All of your statements are based on your perception of 'scientific' reality/truth.
It will be no more valid than previous scientific truths that the world was flat... or that if a train went faster than 30mph all the air would be sucked out of the carriage and the passengers would suffocate.
Any [if not all] bases of scientific 'understanding' have been "revised".
Your cute and cuddly version of reality will be too.
The trouble with each and every generation of 'scientist' is they believe THEY KNOW more than their predecessors, and are thus 'right'.
Wrong.
All they have is a stake in the next domino of human uncertainty, FUD, and straight out guesswork.
The only thing going for a NEW scientist is youth....and plenty of time to discover just how wrong he will be.
Good thing that assumption was incorrect....
"Anything you think, say and do is based on the fact that causation allows for it. The same goes for anything you can hope to understand."
"fact"
Says who?
When did someone's conceptualization of cause and effect become fact?
Was there a memo?
"There IS a God." "Says who?" "God. He told me." "Must be true then."
Must be a FACT.
Have a read of 1984. I read it about 45 years ago.....liked the idea of 'Newspeak' where-by the Govt could eradicate poverty by removing the word from the language...and thus the concept would be lost too.
THERE'S causality for you.....
The very definition of a tautology.
"Everything which we know to exist must be either accidental or not accidental. If existence is random, or accidental, then there would be no reason to hypothesize about G-d. But if everything we observe (or any part of it) proves to be not accidental, and is moreover predictable in any way, then it's natural for the human intellect to hypothesize about the original cause of that which exists, and about its nature."
I believe this statement to be fundamental to this discussion. It has a presumption that an event is or isn't accidental. It's not that simple: The "accident" might have an undiscovered "cause" and the 'not accident's "cause" might be based on "Correlation" which approximates but does not fulfill the definition of ""Cause".
Since there is always a probability/possibility (no matter how small) that A=>B will not recur on the n-th occasion, the definition of "Causality" cannot be fulfilled. Simple "randomness" prevents it.
Even if there were "Causality", that would not prove (nor disprove) G-d. That is a concept used to explain "Causality" by some, but is not a requisite of "Cause".
A requisite of "Cause" would be non-randomness, which simple observation disproves.
This is why Science is governed by "Theories" (which may be disproved at any time) and Religion by "Faith" which is a property independent of logic and proof, but therefore possibly true.
@Istari
Oh how I love the way you define God without doing so. That is very human of you. Remember, it was not long ago evidence showed us that humans can be trained to do and believe anything, as Pavlov's dog was trained to drool at the sound of a bell. Disagree with me? Look at the money Blizzard corp. is making with WoW. They used scientific studies in humans to design there quest systems for the sole purpose of creating addiction in humans to continue playing WoW. The same can be said about the christian church. A being, "God," was created for the masses, then the church system hijacked it for its own purposes; money, power, etc. In doing so, they also forced belief onto people with the threat of death, and killed those who would not convert. And yes, whatever your faith may be, its history is a bloody and dark one.
We humans are not at the pinnacle of our brains evolution, in fact were at the beginning. The reason "God" or "Gods" were created in the beginning was so man could understand their environment. Science did not exist 150,000 years ago, it was just observation and a very creative imagination.
I look at "God" as I look as I look at an honest politician. We would for them to exist, and hope everyday it comes true, alas, it is not meant to be.
Id say it goes without saying. There just makes not sense for all of those planets and stars and galaxies to be out there to be wasted on just the species of Earth. Are you kidding me? I might even think there are more planes of reality and such - materials that bend light and engines that run in decimals we do not hear - why wouldn't there be. I would think that like Earth has a purpose so do many other planets. We just have yet to learn enough about the universe - sheesh we barely understand enough about the earth.
Personally, I cannot believe my future is already "written" by causality. I have more control over my life than some random access theory also.
It's our nature and reason for survival, Curiosity.
{just a little rant. sorry. carry on. }
And very possibly, our demise.
Maybe. But, it's more likely the daily abuses that will bring on our demise. {sad}
Aliens will never move in this neighborhood.
Ok, let's us count :
1. Universe is big, so how many planets that you think habitable? say in percentage as I don't believe someone can count it (please tell the probability)
2. How big is the chance that a smart lifeforms born from those planet?
3. How big is the chance that the smart lifeforms exist until space age
4. How big is the chance that the space age Alien able to create a starship that capable to move faster than speed
5. How big is the chance that those galaxy explorer (who have starcraft capable move faster than speed) reach earth?
Say, what made Human capable to rule the Earth? And why Human became very different from another lifeforms in the Earth? Why only human?
Do you remember my original post regarding this issue? The one you originally disagreed with? That is where I explained why a being had to have created this existence for it to exist.
So, our conversation has thus far been:
Istari: Statement Z because X & Y.
Jafo: Why Z?
Istari: Please see X & Y.
Jafo: BUT WHY Z!?!?
Istari: X.... & ......Y.
So what do you consider true? According to medical science, you are alive because (very generally) your heart is beating, you're breathing, and you're not brain dead. Is this so arbitrary to you that you would just as well take a knife to your throat as not? Are there not some things which you take to be true, and which you base your thoughts, words and actions upon? Surely there are some things.
And how did you arrive at these things? Did you observe stuff, and then use some sort of logic to determine that (for example) putting one foot in front of the other sequentially will allow you to travel forward?
You need to stop generalising and address the specifics to determine if the idea has merit. You still have given not one point of evidence that causality might not be necessary.
"Says who?" Why does 'who' seem to matter so much to you? A concept should be judged by its own merit, and not who happened to have said it.
"THERE'S causality for you....." Again, no.
So, what reason did you give to support your statement that causality is not necessary?
Istari carefully avoids #479.
I'm going to assume that accidental or random in this case means 'not caused'. Predictability is not strictly requisite for causality in general. Prediction is our ability to read causes and determine the effects, which we are not always able to do, or to do accurately. I guess you probably meant that anyway, but I thought I'd clarify.
If correlation does not fulfill causation, it does not disprove it. It simply means that regarding those two correlated events, Event A did not cause Event B, and Event B did not cause Event A. It does not mean or prove that either of those events were not caused by something else.
Regarding observation, we cannot know all causes and their effects simply by being present in the place where they are occuring. That is why some things tend to appear random, as that occurs when you don't know all of the underlying causes. Unless you mean to say that some events are random events because you cannot know all of the causes and their effects, and therefore they do not exist. Though that actually would be solipsism.
But anything hypothesised has little meaning if you cannot translate it to reality. There is no record of an event that was not caused, there is no example or evidence of one, and there is not even a conceptual idea of any hypothetical system where it might be possible that some events occur without being caused. That is saying something.
I began typing it before you posted this.
If only all definitions were so simple. What I mean when I say that I did not 'define' God, is that I went no further than to say that there is one and that this creator initiated our existence. I did not speak of attributes, characteristics, personality, appearance, limitations, beliefs, etc.
Yes, people can be trained. So what? Does that mean that anything we assert must be untrue? How do you know that there is not actually a God? Why must it be that the church or someone else made up a God? Could it be that people just made up their own versions of what they want God to be for their own purposes?
At any rate, please stop shifting this discussion towards religion.
Yes, please, no religion. I've heard enough religious nutters to last me a lifetime...
I'll try to not use religious references, but I believe that UFOs, Aliens, Psychics, Magic, Evolution, Dinosaurs, Big Foot, the Loch Ness Monster, and the list goes on, are nothing more than a product of mankind's imagination. None of these things truly exist. It's all in our minds... and the media...
Istari...
Please answer #471.
If you cannot answer a direct question then why are you participating in this thread?
I tell you what. Just pretend I am an imbecile who has NOT seen, nor is aware of all content within this universe of a thread PRIOR to comment #471.
Here's bloody cause and effect for you.
The cause of a required response is the question posed in #471.
Elucidate an 'effect'.
If I had an alien neighbor, I could have these awesome garden parties.
So, you are saying that since you have not witnessed any of those things for yourself that they do not exist? Or is it more that the entire universe is a product of your imagination, including the earth, its inhabitants, and your body?
"So, you are saying that since you have not witnessed any of those things for yourself that they do not exist? Or is it more that the entire universe is a product of your imagination, including the earth, its inhabitants, and your body?"
Ah...if a tree falls in the woods and no-one is there to hear it does it make a sound?
About as entertaining as putting two shovels up against a wall and telling an idiot to take his pick.....
You are all figments of my mind and when I pass, you will all disappear. Relativity a true statement from ones own perspective.
You're probably right about the dinosaurs being products of mankind's imagination... all those fossils were manufactured by highly imangnative archaeologists who had to justify their digs, not to mention the over-generous government grants that keep them in picks and shovels.
As for magic, I have two words.... David Copperfield. And I seen it on TV, so it must be real.
Bigfoot exists! In fact, I know him personally. He wears size 17 shoes and has to have them made specially... cos size 13's won't fit, not even at a pinch.
I have my own doubts about the Loch Ness monster, however. I mean, it's only the Scots who have seen it.... and we all know they like a dram or six of Johnnie Walker, don't we?
Now physics, that is just a load of old symbols and figures compiled to make people like Einstein and Julius Sumner Miller look smarter than the average bear. We all know that physics and algebra are useless once we leave school, so I'm firmly in support of them being a figment of somebody's imagination.
I'm undecided on Evolution... or the theory of. There's a missing link and I'm gonna sit on the fence until somebody finds it.
With regard to Aliens... they DO exist!!!! Erik von Daniken offered up a reasonable argument that the ancient Egyptians could not have built the pyramids without extraterrestrial assistance, and that's good enough for me. I wouldn't want to die wondering (about how the pyramids were built), so I'm quite happy to accept that little green/grey men came from the heavens in spacecraft and lent some assistance. Also, If aliens exist, and they came here to help build shit, it stands to reason UFOs exist as well.
Who am I to argue with an expert.
Yeah, we got invited to one of those the other day. Hmmm, Shaunna got quite a surprise.... to discover she was the only human there. Yup, had an amazing conversation with a fella from Ork.... reckons Robin Williams grossly misrepresented the planet and its leader when he portrayed Mork.
Of course not. Somebody HAS to be there to hear it, otherwise sound is not perceived.... and without sound perception, all is silent.
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