UFO's and Aliens. Do they exist? Do you think there's even a chance that there is other intelligent life in our galaxy or universe or do you think we Humans are the only intelligent life in all of creation? These are questions that we as a species, man-kind, have asked since as far as our recorded history goes back. Even Ancient man, with no knowledge of modern science or modern understanding of what "Space" was, would look to the night sky at the twinkling stars and wonder...."Are we truly alone?".
Honestly, I've always thought aliens existed. Whether or not they've actually visited this planet at any point in it's history I don't know and I don't think anyone can truly say one way or the other and have definitive proof. Of course there is probably just as much "proof" that aliens don't exist as there is that they do, but, at least we are now discovering for a Fact that there is or was "some form" of life in the universe outside of the planet Earth. We know from microscopic fossils in martian rocks that at one point millions of years ago there was at the very least Single Celled life on Mars. We found this out back in the late 90's. Didn't hear about it? That's not surprising since I only found out about it because of a 10 second mention on ABC's "World News Tonight" back in 96-97. Today how-ever you can research this for your-self as many papers and articles have been published on the subject. A quick Google Search will lead you to many results such as these:
Meteorite Yields Evidence of Primitive Life on Early Mars Source: www.solarviews.com Article from 1997
Fossil Life in Martian Rock Found in Antarctica ? Source: http://spider.seds.org/spider/Mars/Marsrock/marsrocks.html Article from 1996
Proof of Life in Three Martian Rocks May Come This Year Source: www.popsci.com Article from 2010
This is enough in my eyes to call it "Definitive Proof", they're just waiting on the specific results so they can say it's a fact without a shadow of a doubt, and I respect them for waiting and taking it slow and doing the science the right way. A claim such as this can't be rushed no matter how apparent the results of any "proof" might be.
While I do believe in intelligent life outside of this planet, I'm still a skeptic. I mostly believe in what I can see with my own eyes. What I can feel with my own two hands. I think it's important for anyone doing any Serious research into the matter to be a skeptic and to try to dis-prove or debunk as many fakes as possible. With our advances in computers and video editing and special effects it's easier than ever for the nut-jobs and conspiracy wackos out there to make convincing "proof" on their own and it's people like those that bring a bad ilk to any Serious research into the matter. Sadly there are a lot of fakers and crazy people out there working in both directions of the debate. There are people who make fake videos of UFO's and try to pass them off as real and there are various groups and religious zealots who try to prove that Everything is fake and say that None Of It is real and anyone who believes there is intelligent non-human life in the universe is a moron or a liar.
Worse yet there are many people out there who are terrified of the idea that aliens may exist. Some people are so closed minded that no matter what scientific advances we may make or what we may learn about the universe and life its-self, they will Never believe that alien life exists even if aliens were to land on the White-House lawn and announce to the world that they are real and that they are here. Even if that did happen (which of course it hasn't) there would be a certain percentage of the world's population that would say it was faked, even if the proof was pointing a particle cannon at their head.
I'm about to tell a story I've never told publicly before. I've never told it honestly because I'm a little afraid of what it may make people think in regards to my sanity. If you choose to believe it, that's great. If you choose not to believe it, that's great too. One thing I do know for sure, I know what I saw...
Note: Before I get into the story, keep in mind that I was a kid. I was 13 or 14 years old. I had never done any drugs, didn't smoke cigs, didn't drink, and I wasn't a wild kid with a crazy imagination. I never had an "imaginary friend" at any point and even when I did grow up and start "partying" I've never had a hallucination nor have I ever saw something that I wasn't completely sure was right in front of me (magic tricks aside).
It was the summer of the year that my family moved from Deland in Volusia County out to Lake Mack in Lake County, Florida. I had to go to summer school that year to make up a failing English grade in 7th grade English (long story but basically I got screwed out of the grade I should have received). Because there weren't that many kids in my area going to summer school that year all of us in the neighborhood had to meet down at the corner store which was the only bus-stop for summer school that year. School started at 7 A.M. and was all the way in Leesburg (almost an hour from my house). We kids had to be at the bus-stop at 5:30 A.M. because it was a very long ride all the way to Leesburg from where we were in Lake Mack and there were other students to stop and pick up along the way. I was walking to the bus-stop down a long winding road. It was a normal paved road and there were houses and trailers all over the place. Even though the road was deserted because it was so early in the morning it was still a populated and crowded neighborhood. As I was rounding the bends I noticed all the tall pine trees were swaying back and forth pretty hard like there was about to be a storm, but oddly enough I couldn't feel any wind. I'm not going to say there wasn't any wind, there very well could have been and the currents were too high off the ground for me to feel the wind, but, I didn't actually feel any wind.
I was looking up at the tops of the pine trees when a very Large Triangle came out over the trees. At first I thought it was a helicopter and maybe I was seeing the lights on the ends of the rotors but then two things hit me. First, I couldn't hear Any noise. None what-so-ever. Second, if the lights I saw were on the ends of the rotors they would have been spinning very fast and not been stationary. They were also way too far apart to be rotor blades. The object was at least 3 times as high up as the trees, maybe 4 times as high, and it...was....Massive. I'm talking like the size of a Boeing 747, Massive. I quickly realized there was no way in hell that it was a helicopter. There were no flashing lights on it. They were on steadily. There were four lights in total. One larger light in the center and three more slightly smaller lights, one at each tip of the Triangle. I had seen plenty of helicopters up close, even military ones as I've lived close to Deland Airport for most of my time in Deland and seen plenty of air shows and air planes and helicopters first hand. I've seen both the Apache and the smaller Cobra Attack Chopper that it shares it's design with. It's also of note that out in Lake Mack in Lake County we were technically on the out-skirts of the Ocala National Forrest. The army had a bombing range on the far edge of the forrest and at least 3 or 4 times a year you could hear the bombs being dropped and all you had to do was go outside when the planes or helicopters were flying over-head to see what vehicles were doing the bombing. Lake Mack was right underneath their flight path for a long time even though the bombing range its-self was a good 60 or 70 miles away.
Anyway, when I realized just what it was I was looking at....well, I'm not ashamed to admit I got scared and started running for the bus-stop. I didn't look back and I didn't slow down. When I finally got to the point where I could see the store and see the other kids through the darkness standing under the street light at the store I stopped running. I didn't want the other kids thinking I was too scared to walk to the bus-stop in the dark, which I wasn't. I've never been afraid of the dark, not even as a small child. At that point when I stopped running I took the time to look behind me. Not surprisingly I didn't see anything. Nothing. No ship, no Triangle, no wind, and the trees were as still as could be since there was no wind.
I'm not gonna say I know for sure that it was aliens. I don't and to surmise that with no further evidence would be kinda stupid in my eyes. What I do know is that I have no idea what it was and it WASN'T a conventional aircraft. I honestly don't know what It was, but I do know I have Never seen Anything like It nor have I since. That one experience has led me to believe in intelligent life outside of this planet. I can't say it Was aliens. I can say I Think it was, because I have no other explanation for it.
So.....what do YOU believe? Do YOU think we're alone in the universe? Or do YOU think there is far more out there then we could ever dream is possible?
Well, I believe there are aliens out there. Or should I say over here. And, I also think there's all sorts of proof. But, again for our own good, {who the hell dicides that?} they hide it from us. Deny, Deny, Deny. Otherwise they'll riot on the streets.
You can't handle the truth!
Have any of you read the compilation of ideas put forth by the members of the Manhattan project in circa 1954 addressing this very issue? I will get a link as soon as I find one, or you can beat me to it. In a nutshell they determined that due to humanities reliance on religion, and religion that makes us out to be "in gods image," that were far to immature and volatile to have any contact with extra-terrestrials. They then went on to say that "if" such contact was made, that only the worlds brightest scientists should be given such information, and work for the mutual benefit of all mankind, and further an idea of education and tolerance of our peoples before moving onto something far greater.
Also, several US presidents have spent time during there administrations looking into extra-terrestrial contact, and have always come up short. But then again, as president there is some information that even they are not allowed to see.
I firmly believe they are out there, and I also believe that if they do come here, they have a certain interest in us. From a scientific standpoint, observational data can be obtained by just sitting within radio communication range, or tapping into a satellite. I do not believe they "abduct" people and do experiments, thats far to hollywood. Its also a violation of IMO the concepts of how one goes about the interaction and contact of new intelligent species.
Aliens do exist! Here's a photo of Australian actress Claudia Black with Australian cricket captain Ricky Ponting:-
*doc thinks Fuzzy is seeking combat with those from Oz. Off to get pop corn.
UFO's by definition exist.. of course. Anytime someone sees something flying and can't identify it.. its a UFO.
Aliens.. by that i'm guessing you mean extraterrestrial life. Of course.. how egotistical must a person be to believe we are the only planet that supports life in the vastness of the universe.
Intelligent life on other planets? Have they visited earth? now those are the big questions that imo ARE up for debate.
Ya i'm late into the thread and didn't bother to read the mass of posts before me so.. back to your regularly scheduled discussion whatever it was.
"how egotistical must a person be to believe we are the only planet that supports life in the vastness of the universe"
How egotistical that we humans took it upon ourselves to define God and determine there IS one.
Causality or some other BS will tell you there MUST BE squillions of ALFs out there....why are we their definer of God?
Or we aren't.
Or the Cosmic Muffin IS an ALF too....
Thanks!
Hehe, yeah. Turned out the USB port to which my wireless keyboard/mouse was attached was the cause.
Windows started up till the point when the login dialog should be displayed along with the mouse pointer. Why the BIOS didn't give the "no keyboard" error, I have no idea.
After attaching it to another port everything runs fine.
I was wondering: If aliens land somewhere. Are they not autmatically illegal aliens?
On another note:
I think I saw one of these in a video that showed a MIG crash during an air show.
http://www.subversiveelement.com/rods.html
Only if they don't have proper documentation.
That Being said wouldn't astronauts be considered aliens when they leave earths atmosphere?
You know, I got a wireless keyboard and mouse for Christmas, and one night my pc crashed. There was nothing to be done to get it back. Until I plugged my old keyboard in. Easy peasy..... I guess they have a ways to go with wireless. It's working fine now.
{My old keyboard is in it's place. just in case.}
Hmmm, and it looks like he's just given her an anal probe... it's about his style.
Oh, and BTW, Fuzzy, if you don't like Punter, you're not gonna think muck of his soon-to-be replacement, either.
Apart from looking like he's been in a serious Bingle, Michael Clarke can't bat, can't bowl, can't captain.
Hehe, I'm also glad the Poms stuck it to the arrogant "our RIGHT to win" Oz team and retained the Ashes....
... on their home soil, to boot.
By the look of it, it'll take some spiffy alien technology before they have a hope of ever getting 'em back, given the big girls blouses they've been selecting lately
I knew that 'underarm' against the Kiwis was gonna come back to haunt them.... long time in coming, but karma for losing sight of the true spirit of the game.
Interesting, yet highly flawed reasoning. No knock on the Manhattanites though (hell I live in Los Alamos bizarrely enough). They fall in the same trap everyone is prone to. Namely, thinking that ETs would have similar logical constructs to humans. Though I would suggest that religion is probably something any advanced race would come up with, the question then is would the ET visitors have already moved past it? Or would their's be a world/society where only one religion existed? Perhaps they would see us as necessary of conversion to their universe view. Of course any answer we come up with would be so biased by our own experiences that it would also be useless.
I would take the Manhattanite reasoning though, and suggest that since no effort is being made to ween us from religion (unfortunately) that therefore, there has been no ET contact.
As to your 'violation of the interaction with intelligent species'... Again, you ascribe some kind of 'human' philosophy to it. Why would any ETs share that philosophy? Fair enough to ask 'why wouldn't they?' But you seem to have some insight I do not.
Anyway, back to the real world I still think the likeness of that alien is uncanny...
Uncanny isn't the word.... that alien could almost be Punter's twin.
That Claudia Black. She's from Farscape.... I'm a big fan. She was also in Stargate SG1.
She believes in aliens I bet.
So nice to see you Starkers. This place isn't the same without you.
starkers....the Poms did us 3 to 1 .....so what?
In Pommieland we did them 5 zip.
Short memories.....
Same goes with you.... nice to see ya. All being well, I'll stick around a while.
Not even, I remembered the underarm incident, didn't I... and in the same match, the catch that Greg Chappell claimed that wasn't a catch. Replays clearly showed the ball hit the turf in front of him. Sadly for the Kiwis, todays technology to assist umpires wasn't available then. Had it been, the game would've been theirs.
Anyhow, that's history now... and hopefully some of the arrogance is knocked out of the Aussie team with this comprehensive Ashes defeat and the season's dismal failures by a what has become a bunch of big girls blouses.
I think someone on Farscape was taking the piss when that muppet was designed.
Oh wait, I'll have to be careful using the word muppet, it might be confusing
Yup! Who said TV producers don't have a sense of humour???
Word has it that Punter mounted a legal challenge to stop the unauthorised likeness of him going to air, but the judge determined that he was a very public figure and everybody knew his ugly mug already.
Yes, he also bears an uncanny resemblance to that grumpy looking muppet that sits up in the box on he balcony.
I base my argument on the precept that compassion is inherent in life itself. Combine that with logic and reasoning, and you have a universal view on things.
Also, on the Manhattanite view, that religion is not being weened of the species. If you look at the numbers of identifying aethiests and spiritual people, those who do not buy into the institution of the church, are increasing every year. Also, the acceptance that ET's exist and may even visit earth increases every year as well. Also, looking at the recent announcement by the Catholic church, I think 2008, that ET's do exist, this brought 1.1 billion people into the fold of acceptance. Got to love Catholics.
Just got back from holiday (I'm wrecked).
OK firstly, @Jafo, everything you say about causality would lead one to believe that you don't actually know anything about it.
Exhibit A:[quote who="Jafo" reply="456" id="2866588"]Causality or some other BS will tell you there MUST BE squillions of ALFs out there....why are we their definer of God?[/quote] Really? Does causality imply this by necessity?
Exhibit B:[quote who="Jafo" reply="448" id="2865866"]It certainly doesn't need any sidetracked rubbish about 'causality'. - shucks....crop circles....causality would have you demanding there MUST be saucers landing....since, golly, NO 'human' did them [admitted to doing them].[/quote] Do you even listen to yourself, or do you have that thing in common with Peter Griffin, where you only drift in and out?
Causality means, in the simplest of terms, that things happen (it's true, I've seen it!), and those things invariably make other things happen, which also make other things happen, (in my best Yul Brynner voice) etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
Secondly, @Shadowtongue, regarding your request of proof that causality is necessary, it isn't as difficult as you might think. Good science is empirical, i.e. it works off what is observable, and that is one of the primary axioms. Given the overwhelming evidence of the necessity of causality, the onus is on the disproving. Simply put, if you can give solid empirical evidence (i.e. not a theory in progress or ideas about experiment results that have not been proven or that do not tie into observable reality), then you will have proven that causality is not necessary. In other words, give a single example within this universe where it is provable that causality did not or does not apply.
Failing that, explain how you could do anything you do without being subject to causality, or how you can process a single thought without causality, or how pretty much anything can occur within this universe, without having a cause.
Please also note, I did not refer to any religious texts or beliefs, and I did not define a God, I merely stated that some 'being' had to have created our existence. So regardless of whatever I may believe or what religion I may follow, please focus on the subject matter. I will re-iterate, this is not about beliefs or religion, this is about something that has not been logically refuted - ever.
Honestly, it completely boggles me how people can so simply (and without proof mind you) dismiss this inescapable part of our existence. Yet all of this doesn't change the fact that of all the people who didn't like what I have said in this regard, not one of them has bothered to actually tackle the issue. For example, if causality is not necessary, then my argument might be refuted (I say might because the conditions where causality may not be necessary have not been specified, and as such may not apply to what I have said, even if what you said were true). Yet instead of simply explaining and showing how causality is not necessary, and how this would refute the logic, you just blurt out unfounded statements and silly challenges.
Lastly, is it egotistical to say that based on the scientifically proven laws of the universe and the logic derived therefrom, there must be a creator? I mean, if I've missed a step (hello, I am human), then I could be wrong, but egotistic? Even if your belief in a God is not based as such, it doesn't necessarily derive from a sense of self-importance.
You STATE that "some 'being' had to have created our existence".
I will put it in plain English that even you cannot side-step...
WHY?
And who are you to "state"?
THE 'being'?
And just so you don't fart off on a tangent... I'll put the question in capitals.....it is the next bit...
WHY HAD SOME BEING HAVE TO CREATE OUR EXISTENCE?
...and another...
WHY DID SOME 'BEING' HAVE TO DO ANYTHING?
...a third...
Blind faith in causality is its own failing. It is a poor assumption that since everything YOU see appears to be an effect with a cause it naturally [?] follows that ALL things MUST follow cause-and-effect. That is patently poor science.
[BTW... hint...when you quote don't be selective ... it's called 'mis-quoting']...
3 'scientists' are on a train trip from England to Scotland.
The cross the border into Scotland and in the field outside they see a black sheep.
First 'scientist' says....
"Look...all the sheep in Scotland are black."
Second 'scientist' scoffs....
"No...from pure observation we can deduce that at least ONE of the sheep in Scotland is black" ....said with a wry smile of superiority...
Third 'scientist' adds quietly...
"Actually...all we can determine for certain is that at least ONE of the sheep in Scotland is black....on at least ONE of its sides."
Science is the ART of assumption and speculation where its practitioners cross fingers hoping their beliefs/findings will NOT be found wanting .... at least in their own lifetimes.....
@Jafo.
The WHY I have already posted, I don't like repeating myself. You didn't agree - that is your freedom. You still haven't given a proper and complete reason as to why/how I am wrong. All you've really said is "Causality *bpltthhh (raspberry)*". Which isn't saying much.
WHO I am is of absolutely no consequence, as I am not stating this as an opinion of something that pertains to my person. What I am saying is that based on X & Y (neither of which are based or dependant on me existing), Z logically follows. So, stop attaching this to ME, as if somehow it would disappear if I ceased to exist.
I did not say that causality is true due to my own personal experience that every cause has an effect. I am saying causality is true because there is no other logical explanation that is even a reasonable possibility or that even exists in the realm of possibility, that would explain how the universe functions, or how the universe is. Stop trying to write this off as 'faith', let-alone blind faith, as I have listed my reasons which are thus far logically sound.
Speaking of farting off and tangents, why don't you quit dodging the question and tell me how causality could possibly be inapplicable in any situation. Give me just one example, please. I can give you a million examples of where it does apply, and I've already explained why it must apply.
I will repeat myself here. I sit here performing an action that is a link in a chain of causality. Something happened that caused this action, and something happened that caused that action. When you follow all of these links back up the chain, and at every point you observe that there was a cause for each individual event, at what point can you say that it will eventually lead to a break in the chain, whereby somehow, something occurred without being caused? What can you base this on if there is no known example of this occurring in the history of the universe? Give me one bloody reason why your theory could even be remotely possible!
The fact is, you have nothing. You don't like what I'm saying, and that is clear. Unless causality doesn't always apply because.... you don't want it to? Or.... you don't like it?
Simply put, all the science in the world cannot account for a single missing link in any chain of causality in the history of the universe. No logic or scientific law can substitute a system for causation. Everything ever posited in the history of mankind could not have been if not for causality. Without causality, we cannot have logic, as it it compositely dependant.
As it stands, it is easier to blindly and indiscriminately believe in every single crackpot conspiracy theory in the world, than it is to doubt that causality is necessary. At least conspiracy theories have a basis in some real events, even the blatant lies, and some even have a chance of being true. So far, there is no scientifically sound or logical reason to suggest that causality is ever or was ever inapplicable. At the same time, everything we know, everything we have learned, and everything that we witness and hypothesise about on a daily basis is positively SCREAMING that causality is and must be true.
The third scientist has used causality based logic to affirm the extent of his own knowledge regarding the blackness of sheep in Scotland based on his observations. The point here being that this particular concept is fundamentally different, given that causality is what we use to make these determinations. How can you use a drill in such a way as to make it drill a hole in the very bit that it's using to drill the hole? Meaning to say, anything you posit to try to disprove the necessity of causation, is posited by virtue of causation and cannot be posited otherwise. Anything you think, say and do is based on the fact that causation allows for it. The same goes for anything you can hope to understand.
You have NOT answered me. I just asked the question in #472.
It is NOT some other question [none of which you actually responded to other than to reassert some oblique and irrelevant statement].
If you cannot respond appropriately I can only assume you are intentionally obtuse aka trolling.
WHY DO YOU SAY 'SOME BEING' had TO?
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