Beta 3B introduces the skeleton of tactical battles.
Here's the basic concept on how they're supposed to work:
Your Combat Speed is translated into action points. We do NOT use your Moves per turn stat (that's supposed to represent endurance and it's not subject to change).
The current system is, however, far too basic of course. In this thread, we will discuss which aspects of MOM, HOMM, AOW, as well as new concepts you guys would like to see.
Below is the system we intend to implement and we look forward to your thoughts on this:
These 6 things are what we consider the "basic" for day 0.
Obviously, right now, none of these 6 things are in. I am hoping to get a Beta 3C up on Monday that has them though.
On top of these 6 items there is what we consider "required" for v 1.1 (60 days or so after release):
In the long-term, we plan to keep evolving tactical battles based on feedback. It's not something we're going to push out there on day 0 and call it a day. But I also think it would be naive to think that by day 0 or day 120 that tactical battles will be the end all be all because there is just so much one can do with this area and it's not something that should ever be considered "finished".
I agree, essentially a lot of us are on the same page on this. In order to create the "calvary" and the "sauron," we need the combat speed to be a separate stat from number of attacks. The model of 1 square = 1 combat point, cost to use weapon is Total Combat Points / Weapon Speed seems complicated, but in practice people can understand it pretty simply as:
"Combat Points are how far you can move. Your Weapon Speed is how often you can make an attack. A weapon speed of 5 means you will use 1/5th (or 20%) of your Combat Points every time you attack."
@ Malloreon ... overland map-speed has to do with things a Backpacker has to think of. Food Supply, Logistics, Morale.
meanwhile combat speed deals with how fast you can run (marathon) ... while attack speed deals with how fast you can move (sprinting)
For instance, fencers have to have a very fast attack speed, but not all of us can run very fast ... yet if one of us was a skilled backpacker his overland-map speed would be relatively high.
Supply Routes and Morale could easily affect the Overland Movement speed of an army.
Additionally, Undead and other things without a need for food could have a consistently higher overland movement speed for all but well supplied/ high morale cavalry.
Meanwhile, nothing has a higher Tactical speed than Cavalry (unless maybe flying creature). While foot soldiers have a wide range between slow attack speed and fast attack speed.
Example ... a Foot Soldier Axeman and a Mounted Axeman could have the same attack speed (unless stirrups were involved). Yet a mounted Axeman's tactical speed is much higher.
Meanwhile, a mounted Axeman's Overland speed could be only slightly higher than his footman counterpart or even equal ... yet with equal supplies and morale the mounted counterpart would move faster Overland.
I suppose if you throw out the Undead and Demonic units, there is less of a visible difference. I realize that in a previous post on Mounts, I had the mount give a greater difference in Overland speed (just as difference between Saddles and Stirrups) but I see that was wrong. I think its best if Cavalry give the greatest difference of speed during the Tactical battle, and only a slight difference in Over-land movement.
Perhaps +2 Overland Movement and +4 Tactical speed.
Because in Overland Movement you aren't going fast, you are methodically traveling, camping, and getting supplies.
Edit: **In addition ... having Heavy armor could reduce your Tactical Speed, while Heavy weapons reduces your Attack speed, and neither affect your Overland Movement
Remember in your ideas guys to 'keep it simple stupid' . Some of us arent as smart as you all and although the computer can calculate it, a simpler system HELPS underestand it better.
1) first, to answer this: (bold is quote)
Action points = MoveNumber of action points it takes to move one tactical tile = 1Number of action points it takes to attack once/cast a spell once = Action Points/Combat SpeedNumber of action points it takes to counterattack = Half that to attack
I like this idea as long as we have a way to increase action points.
however, another poster put up an idea earlier that by BEING on a horse you automatically 'halved' costs of movment from frogboys original idea (moving cost 2 combat speed, and overall speed was 1+ combat speed). Then, for cavalry BOTH actions would cost one- this would also work and prevent faster cavalry.
Now, onto other issues...
2) COUNTERATTACKS (ripped from MOM/AOW):
MOM had simultaneous counterattacks (simulating to units engaging), and used special abilities to modify (first strike for cavalry, and 'negate first strike' in halberders/pikemen. This would be an excellent system to see return- even better than AOW becasue it better simulates two units engaging. In AOW, letting a unit just run up and smack em was cool, but was too much of an advantage in a turn based game. However, some sort of combat speed/actionpoint/whatever limiting your total number of simultaneous counterattacks like Age of Wonders (were you had a finite number of attacks AND it pulled from your upcoming turn) would be good. IE COMBINE EM!!
3) COMBAT SPELLS
frst off, keep the 'imbue' ability so we can create casters. Is fun, its cool, and makes magic and mages sufficiently rare and powerful.
Second: Take a note from Age of Wonders II and let us build wizards towers! (maybe ONE tower). This would give us a reason to keep a soverign at home 'ruling'', and allow him/her to use spells to support armies in their territory. Like 'MOM', use a modifier based off of range (and maybe consider letting them cast spells when the soverign has heroes in an army in foreign territory)
4) SETTING UP TACTICAL BATTLES (the only part i ripped from HOMM5)
A 'tactics' or 'general' stat for heroes that lets us set up are forces on the tactical map. Larger stat = more of map open to place troops before combat begins. Also, allows for 'ambushes' at sufficiently high levels (to surround an enemy) AND could use such a stat to decide who to attack first.
5) ARCHERS:
Currently shortbows are too powerful, and ive yet to see other bows in the game. Please nerf- high level bows with champions could be a way to mow down soldiers, but right now my party of archers with a soldiers cape is kicking WAY too much tail.
6) Damage types:
cutting/piercing/blunt/fire/ice/arcane: keep this in. Please? I want reasons to arm soldiers with maces vs axes, not just 'strength and speed'. Also looking forward to special abilities!
oh, and i remember reading somewhere that there would be an advantage to soldiers being on foot as opposed to mounted....cant remember were i saw this. Could this still be the case? Or will it simply be a cost thing?
I can see why Tactical Movement could be different from Overland Movement. A couple reasons:
I could come up with "fantasy" reasons as well:
What it would come down to is whether they want to put that much detail in to the game. I'd appreciate leaving it moddable, but I don't care too much either way. If Frogboy et al have a good reason to separate out Combat Speed and Movement, I'm happy with it.
i agree that we definitely shouldn't use the overland speed for anything combat related. my money is on action point cost to do things, like move, attack etc. i really don't want a base amount for everything, like attacking no matter the circumstances costs 1 point. or moving will always cost you 2. each combat action should cost something different. like the game jagged alliance 2(one may have had it, haven't played it). actions during combat should have their own stat.
combat speed = number of attacks
combat move = number of moves
combat magic = number of spells to cast (this could be really good, especially if more powerful spells cost more combat magic AP to use.
combat abilities = number of AP it cost to use units special ability.
you should have a pool of AP and each action you take drains that pool.
example AP pool = 100
move: 20 AP to move on regular flat land, more if passing through rough terrain(swamp, woods, hills etc.)
Attack: 10 to swing a fast weapon, 30 for something slow and powerful.
Magic: 12 to cast burn enemy, 30 to cast area of effect fireball.
Abilites: 10 points to go berserk(increases movement, moral, and attack), 25 points to transform into a demon.
it may be somewhat complex but as long as there is a good UI to handle it, its will be exceptionally deep.
Aye ... shortbows are far too powerful it seems.
A "Champion Only" Recurved Bow of Awesome could be 15 attack, medium range, +1.5 attack speed
meanwhile ...
Bow -> 5 attack, medium range
Composite Bow -> 7 attack, +1 attack speed, short range
Long Bow -> 10 attack, long range
Compound Bow-> 6 attack, +2 attack speed, medium range
Yithril Bow -> 12 attack, +0.5 attack speed, very long range
also, a "Champion Only" Titan's Bow could be 20 attack, medium range
I love both these from reply#103:
And I agree with the last few posters assessments of ranged weapons (nice list, Tasunke), but I'll wait with equipment critiques for a later beta.
Anyone who has ever hiked or played an endurance sport shouldn't have any trouble understanding why Tactical movement should be different to Overland movement.
The problem with all these cool complex systems people post, especially formations affecting gameplay, is that coding AI for that is really, really difficult. Calculating AP a bit differently and then having two different AP costs for each unit, movement and action (attack/spell/special ability) is much more doable and really in my opinion gives enough variety to tactical combat.
If you add larger than 1x1 units, some terrain effects and perhaps unit facing, I think we'd have an exciting enough system that's not too complex. After all tactical battles aren't the whole game.
Well ... it may not seem simple or basic, but just 4 stats work for me (3 stats for non casters)
Overland Movement
Combat Speed
Attack Speed
Casting Speed
..
default Overland Movement is 2
default Combat Speed is 2
default Attack Speed is 2
default Casting Speed is 1
(for someone average)
no stat can go below 1. So really the combat stats are ( 1, 1, 0 ) +1
To get Casting Speed above 1 would require some fancy robes or other magical items. (Concentration Gloves, Wizardly Robes, Meditation Band, Concentration Amulet, Ring of Concentration, Shoes of Meditation)
Attacking would cost CoS/AS, Casting would cost CoS/CaS, and Combat Points would equal CoS, and moving 1 tile would cost 1.
So at default, moving a tile costs 1 point, attacking costs 1 point, and casting a spell costs 2 points.
But how often are thinks at default?
Adding more stats isn't always better, yet EWoM has a lot fewer than most games, so adding a few shouldn't matter.
Movement should be separate since a packed catapult should keep up with the footmen, yet in combat they would pretty much be immobile. Same is said for horses, since they will have to trot when moving cross-country yet can gallop while in battle.
The ones I would like to see:
Movement: Overland movement,
Speed: In combat, how many tiles they can move optiimally.
Mobility: How much their movement will be penalized over rough terrain. Should be around 0.0 for flyers, 2.0 for horses, 1.0 for foot, 4.0 for siege weapons etc. Plenty of wars have been won from this, and larger armies will get an overland penalty to this since logistics is a b**** when maneuvering mountains.
Combat Speed = Attack count: for this is what it would be if Attack Cost = APMax/CS.... Yet how many attacks can you do if CS=1.7? 1.7 attacks per turn? This is where this model fails the most imo.
I'm not certain Cast speed would be that necessary since (I hope) all spells will require different amounts of AP to perform. Some should take more than one turn. But there should be shielding spells to protect yourself from ranged while you cast these.
And Frogboy is reading this (I hope he is) how hard do you think it would be to implement the continual turn model?
there was a bunch of discussion about tactical combat models in the past. the current turn based model is what they decided on after a lot of testing and tinkering.
Going off of the thoughts I had for this earlier.
I would definitely recommend, with a good sense of urgency, that you start the battles not immediately in front of each other. But at the starting border. Then movement becomes important. And really, it should be important.
And I would suggest that units in general have a speed of 2 squares, and the faster ones, for mounted, or what not get bonuses to their movement, while on the inverse the slower units like heavy infantry move 1.
And keep it completely decoupled from the action points.
This way, people can actually utilize the Tactics that these battles imply. This way the folks can find good terrain, and use it as necessary. Setting up flankers, and be able to fight a battle in 2-3 minutes. As was suggested. But one move per, or two action points just encourages lack of imagination.
Give us speed, keep it separate from the number of actions or attacks we can do per turn. And I think in conjunction with some other suggestions.. could really amplify the game to feel tactical. Yet still be fast, and still get the fights done quicker, while letting us enjoy the visual feast these battles represent.
You could get away with one movement stat that applies overland and tactical. AoW did that after all and we're all praising it here. It's just that with the type of numbers Elemental is using, the tactical movement speed would need to be some multiple of the overland speed (tactical battles where most units move 1 tile a turn would get REALLY annoying).
It does seem that we all agree that combat speed and movement speed need to be split somehow though. You need to be able to boost movement speed without also giving a unit five more attacks.
Yeah AoW-SM's system was good, but if we could separate Combat Speed & Movement Speed in EWoM -> That would be the best & most realistic.
So let's see:
Examples:
Naga -> Action points: 1+1[movement speed] Combat Speed: 4 -> It can move 1 tile / turn but it can attack 4 times / turn. Spec. ability: Cleave -> This special attack uses up all of the remaining attacks of the creature. IE. It can attack 4 surrounding tiles in the same time even, if there are 4 attacks left, or 3 or 2. Benefit: Only 1 target is able to launch a counterattack.
Warg Rider -> Action points: 1+5[movement speed] Combat Speed: 1 -> It can move 3 tiles / turn, but it can only attack 1 time / turn. Spec ability: Charge -> Double dmg if the target was at least 2 tiles away [uses up 2 action points + the "attack" as well]
That being said, this surely won't happen, because this would be a huge change, but I think that this is the "perfect" & most realistic combat system.
I really think spells should be one/caster/turn.. unless the unit has an ability to do more. (Shard bonus?)
this helps preserve the distinction between different spells, especially AOE vs single target.
I like what I read. Sounds more like the AOW:SM system (which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.) I would like to suggest one thing about unit placement when you first enter tactical combat. The one thing I did not like about AOW TC was that you could not choose how your units were placed on the battle field when the TC started. Often your healing and archer units were right up front and they were easy to kill in the first round. Now realistacly you would put these units behind the tougher melee units if given a choice. So what I purpose would be something along the lines of what TW does when you go to a TC. They allow you to place your units in a certain area before combat begins. Either that or allow a default unit placement for each Army that the player can choose. This would involve a tactical button on the Army details screen that you can select to go to a screen and set up your unit placement. Then once you do enter a TC this will already be set up.
I agree with everyone who suggests an AoW:SM style TC. It was (is) really fun to play.
Just some thoughts. In the first AoW you started very far from each other in TC. You had to make several moves before you were in range to do anything. While this is kind of cool, it does slow things down significantly. Since there was no bonuses for flanking etc it was kind of pointless, and they did change it for AoW2 / SM where the armies started closer together and only one move was needed for ranged attack for example. So what I'm saying here is, armies should start far from each other ONLY IF there is a bonus system in place for flanking and other maneuvers. If there is no such system, having the armies start withing one turns reach is probably the best.
Another thing that has been mentioned here is the "General" or "tactics" ability that lets you place units before battle. AoW didn't have this and it was maybe the only drawback of the TC in those games. It should be in, in one way or another.
I disagree. This system adds little value if the game already smartly positions ranged units in the back and melee in front. This feature could be "cool" in some higher end battles, but not in the vast majority of them. The game just needs to always place ranged units behind and melee in front, and that's enough. Dev time at this point should go to much more pressing TC improvements.
Anatar 11,
Thats not exactly what i meant- it would include what you mentioned of course. at a high level, a good 'general' hero could have the ability to start out surrounding your opponent, have your cavalry start out at an opponents flank/etc. It also could have a Tactic Skiill 'comparison', so the better general can see the placement of opposing forces.
Would this be overpowered? Sure. But it would be like General Lee/Jackson outmaneuvering union forces in real life, and give an 'Epic General' hero or sovereign great advantages over superior forces. It would also help distinguish a 'general warrior' from a 'champion warrior'.
Oh, and i think this would be relatively easy for the devs to implement.
I will have to disagree with you on this one. I think it is important to allow us to atlest set up how the Armies are positioned in TC prior to going into battle. This could be done on the army's detail page.
Why? What does it actually do that matters for Elemental?
If you start further from the enemy, you will have a few turns to organize your army. This should suffice, in HoMM 3/5 the armies were so close, you reached each other in one or two turns. In TW the armies are so large, it would be very clunky to organize them in real time. Elemental has neither and therefore doesn't require prebattle placement. It isn't bad but there are so many other things they could be working on instead.
I would just point out that even games as far back as 1988's Nobunaga's Ambition, had unit placement at the start of the battle.
The key thing to this is if, they hear some of our interests, so that way some of us could utilize terrain to our advantage, or find choke points in battle, we could then maneuver our units into position. Or move them up as we see the need.
I don't understand the confusion to why this wouldn't change battles from lasting 2-3 minutes. Having to quickly place a unit down, with the most simplistic approach of melee up front, ranged and spell casters in the back row, but having the chance to use terrain and high speed units, to create interesting battles. As some of us.. look to enjoy a tactical battle with some depth. Not just in dealing with unit powers and special abilities.
And suggesting it, isn't a bad thing. But the only ones who know how much effort any of these ideas are going to take is the dev team. That's it. So suggesting things that they said they would like to hear our opinions on, is important.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
