Beta 3B introduces the skeleton of tactical battles.
Here's the basic concept on how they're supposed to work:
Your Combat Speed is translated into action points. We do NOT use your Moves per turn stat (that's supposed to represent endurance and it's not subject to change).
The current system is, however, far too basic of course. In this thread, we will discuss which aspects of MOM, HOMM, AOW, as well as new concepts you guys would like to see.
Below is the system we intend to implement and we look forward to your thoughts on this:
These 6 things are what we consider the "basic" for day 0.
Obviously, right now, none of these 6 things are in. I am hoping to get a Beta 3C up on Monday that has them though.
On top of these 6 items there is what we consider "required" for v 1.1 (60 days or so after release):
In the long-term, we plan to keep evolving tactical battles based on feedback. It's not something we're going to push out there on day 0 and call it a day. But I also think it would be naive to think that by day 0 or day 120 that tactical battles will be the end all be all because there is just so much one can do with this area and it's not something that should ever be considered "finished".
I have to agree with Sethai (@224) here. Combat in GC2 is very simple - which is why I barely every fought in the game. I hope we get some more complexity in Elemental - either vanilla, or through mods.
yeah id like something like that
but even more easier id like just to cast few spells each turn
it seems just odd to spam spells like it is now
I agree on all points. Especially about movement speed and number of attacks need to be split up
What do other people think?
Best regards,Steven.
The notion that you need more stats is provably false. MOM only had attack, ranged attack, shields, resistance, hitpoints. It was perfectly fine and quite interesting combat system. Granted mostly thats because it had abilities on its units. Abilities are coming though.
Resistance would actually be a nice mechanic to implement, it would serve to make champions/dragons/etc. far more resistant to magic than foot soldiers without requiring big hp boosts.
hp are still required
when something has 8 9 hp its hard to balance
mostly cause the actual system contains a TOO HIGH randomness on dmg
maybe if armor would produce a % reduction etc
but right now we really need more hp
myabe just a lvl boost on lvl for free
like 2 hp free
For the record, I prefer the movement/combat speed system on page 1 over an AP one.
That said, with AP I'd rather see the spell cost it's mana cost in AP. If it's just the level, you can still carpet bomb fireballs.
I'm very much against spells taking several turns to cast, else their effects will need to be greatly increased to balance the amount of hurt a same-level Melee sovereign can dish out (and it's a lot). I'm not against casting fewer higher level spells per turn versus lower level spells (like being able to cast 4 level 1 spells, but only 1 level 5).
This makes caster Sovs have to invest in an extra stat, since tactical spells can cost 5+ mana. Then there's "okay" scaling for some spells, but mostly you'd end up casting just 1 spell per turn in most cases 'cause it just uses up any AP you have, there won't be any diferrentiation between the power of the spell. One Dominate spell is probably not the same as a "hit everything for lots of damage" spell, but the combat system wouldn't really care.
i dont think anyone wants multi-turn casting. it's just that 8 ice bolts in 1 turn is ridiculous
You'd be surprised, people have been asking for it
Throwing it out there as an option, there is a difference (in my case anyway). And I did mention higher AP or Mana Point costs as options too. Best regards,Steven.
Multi-turn tactical casting and is different from say overland casting. If I'm casting a game winning spell, it should probably take longer then snapping my fingers.
but not in tactical combats, maybe enchantments or other big land spell
anyway the actual magic system is not so bad
there is a progression and it takes time to research spells which is nearly the same
yup right now this is one of my concerns, but lets wait next beta to see how they solved it
you can make the same trick as for melee attacks
spells have a base cost (mana or level or whatever) divided by attack speed (eventually with a constant to make it balanced)
Also agreed. The sad thing is a Lot of us saw problems like this coming over a year ago when it was first made known that there would be so few stats that mattered affecting game-play. We tried to lobby for a slightly more complex system with a few more variables. I can understand keeping it simple for coding and balance purposes, but also when you try to boil down a complex system into something that's Too Simplified it can cause problems like the one we're facing now with movement/attack speed. Of course there are plenty of ways to fix the problem, like by adding different stats or abilities to weapons or armor to counteract what is happening with the battles now, though that still involves adding another value. It would have been a Lot Simpler if they would have listened and put in a few more stat values from the start which would have avoided this problem all together.
Sometimes K.I.S.S. can cause more problems than it eliminates. This is one of those times.
(K.I.S.S. = Keep It Simple Stupid)
There is such a thing as "too simple", especially when it causes bad things to happen in game-play.
I'm standing by my belief that movement should be split completely from the Action point setting.
There should be Action points, used to perform actions, attack, cast a spell, use a potion.
And there should be movement points that ... let you move a distance. Irrespective of your action points.
And the only time you should see the two ever meet would be for a charge ability. Which would give you a powerful attack after your movement with you then no longer being able to move that round even if you have additional speed points.
Beyond that.. the AI isn't going to be terribly confused about using resource 1 for movement, and resource 2 for action points.
And the idea about casting additional spells, what about the first one costs 1 action point, the second one cast costs 2 action points, the third one costs 4 action points. (So theoretically you could cast 3 spells with 7 action points. But two for only 3 points.)
I think that balances it as well a bit so spells can't just be super spammed.. but still let those with the action points to do so.. cast spells then.
ravenx how can you simply ignore master of magic?
How am I ignoring MoM? I loved MoM MoM was a semi-simplistic game, that's true. It was the combination of all it's systems combined how-ever that made MoM as good as it was. For it's time MoM was incredibly Complex. Compared to the complexities of today's games though MoM is rather lacking. Still, in it's day, MoM was my FAVORITE Fantasy Strategy game.
Ahh, ok. I see what you meant now,DeadlyShoe. I'm still not ignoring MoM, but, Elemental is Not a MoM clone. It's far more advanced in Every way. Also, even though MoM had a very simple stat system, it didn't have the game-play flaws that are happening now in Elemental's battles. When having too few stats introduces flaws in the system then I'd say that's a problem, no matter how good other examples of a simplified system may be. Just look at D&D for an example. On paper the D&D stat system can look incredibly complicated. Is it though, is it really? No, not at all. It's basic math that a computer can do in mili-Seconds flat. Basically though, DeadlyShoe, you just have to realize that this isn't MoM and by looking at and playing the current beta's battles it's Obvious to a lot of people that having such a simplified stat system IS the cause of our current issue with movement/attack speed. I don't think that can be denied no matter which way you look at it. Especially when the evidence is clear. Adding another value and separating speed from movement IS the way to go and the easiest fix. The main question is:
Does the Team have enough time left to implement a change like adding another basic stat and still make the gold date?
Everything done between the RTM date and actual launch is Supposed to be nothing but shine and extra polish and bug fixes, Not having to re-balance the entire stat system. If they re-balance everything to include another stat and fix it with a zero-day patch and a reviewer doesn't get that patch before he plays the game and writes his review then Elemental will get bombed in the reviews for having drastically flawed game-play and I'm sure None Of Us want to see that happen. This issue MUST be resolved before launch or a lot of people are going to consider tactical battles to be gimped and simply tacked on when in reality they are supposed to be one of most compelling and challenging factors of the game.
Yeah, this could work as well. Combat Speed shouldn't be removed of course, it should affect the number of attacks / number of spells casted / turn. + I don't like the "fixed" amount of AP / attack system. It makes no sense if all of the creatures are using up the same amount of AP for an attack. I know that AoW's combat system worked like that, but there wasn't any stats like combat speed in that game. [Even tho, it has the best TBS combat system up-to-date, but it can be improved.]
Interesting notion. Either way it can be made to work, simply by shifting spells up or down in level, or up or down in mana cost. It is simply a balance issue at that point. The question is how many spells (and of what level) should a Sov be able to cast in a combat round? Once that is determined, then making the game mechanics around it shouldn't be too difficult, especially since APs seem to already be implemented.
To me, Sovereigns are too high powered in the early game right now, both for melee and magic. My first challenging fights usually come when I start the Master Quest.
I also see nothing wrong with higher level tactical spells taking more than 1 round to cast. I would really hate to lose most of my army b/c the AI (or whomever I am battling) simply went first in the first round and got off a high level army nuking spell before I could even try to do anything. At least give me 1 round to maybe scatter my troops and lessen the impact somewhat.
Frogboy, what do you think about this very important issue of being fast in battle (horse archers) means you can attack and cast spells a lot, and being able to attack/cast spells a lot (Sovereign) means you can move a lot? I'm very interested in how the final game is going to be balanced when movement and attack points are not separated, and more Action Points means you can attack/cast spells a lot, or move a lot, or do a decent amount of both movement and attacking/casting spells.
The first reviews of Elemental are going to be very crucial, and I think this issue could have a very big bearing on how fun and balanced the game is and what kind of reviews it gets.
The action point system is set up so that those with a high combat speed can basically go to down on others.
We do not want to hook this up to endurance (strategic map movement) because the two aren't really related.
The idea is that someone with a very high combat speed can do a lot of harm in a single tactical turn.
But high combat speed is useless without attack power. You can be really fast and not be able to get through the other guy's armor.
In Beta 3C, spells go right through armor which was a bug that was fixed.
Any chance you could list the planned(or already implemented) changes for tactical combat? It has been discussed at length so far, but we really don't know where you guys are headed. Right now it just seems overly simplified to me. I was hoping for a bit more finesse to the tactical battles.
I was also wondering why tactical battles were planned this late in the beta. I think its quite a big part of the game, and from what games you guys have produced before, it must be something that you have little experience in. (plz correct me if I'm wrong)
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
