As we draw to a close on the Elemental Beta, I'd like to share my thoughts - not in a way to be slamming StarDock but in the vein of constructive criticism.
First, Kudos on bring us in so early in the process. Yes, it was indeed a sausage factory, but I think it was great, I think it was bold, and I believe it will make Elemental the great game that it has the potential of being. Thanks for the Dev journals, the constant updates, and for being straight with the community. I am so sick of companies that just lie,lie lie to their customers.
That said, I felt like there was not enough beta in the beta. I really think that the community deserved and the game would have benefited from a few months of seeing the game in a more or less complete state. I understand the benefits of the long Beta 1 cycle, and really have no problem with that, but all of the later stages just felt like they were crammed together and rushed to the point of negligible benefit. I am glad the game is coming out in August, and I realise the game is going to continue to evolve, probably significantly, after release. But the blunt truth is, after more than a year of following this games development CLOSELY, and involvement with the beta from day 1, we are a few short weeks from the code needing to go gold and I really have no idea what the final "complete" product is going to look like.
A good game is more than the sum of its parts, and yet all we have seen is parts usually with much and sometimes the majority of the game broken or intentionally disabled. It's impossible to give balance feedback in such an environment, because the very act of balancing implies that you have a known quantity on the other side of the scale. Too much was done in isolation, in my opinion, and the beta testers really never got the chance to give feedback on everything.
I have every confidence that you will release on schedule, I am sure your internal builds are much more finished than anything we have seen. I think the game is going to rock, don't get me wrong. I jsut think for a game coming out in August that we should have been seeing a pretty finished product in June at the latest. This is not a complaint, it is just an opinion of how I think you can improve your process in the future to make a better game.
I have very much appreciated being part of this process, and wish StarDock and the Elemental Team every success, and hope that we the fans get the amazing experience we have been waiting for.
Denryu
It is almost certain that the modding beta is going to come out after the feature-lockdown, so for those of us whose primary interest is modding, we are getting the impression that most of our suggestions are not going to get in.I'm okay with that. I only wish it could have been different.
Feature lockdown is for the release version of the game, the version we'll be playing if we choose not to patch it. It probably is true that most of the suggestions will not get in for the release build, but as they've mentioned above - Stardock will be adding lots of stuff post-release in patches and expansions.
Sounds like a good idea. Don't get me wrong, the incredibly quick progress and rapid changes the beta is undergoing proves what you guys can accomplish in a short amount of time - I just worry that we, the testers, won't have a whole lot of time to play with all the new (at least to us) features you're implementing, test them, break them, and come up with crazy new ideas that might just improve them. In other words I have no doubt Stardock can finish the game and have it ready for release in time, I just wish the testers had more time to try out that "finished" game and find even more ways you guys can polish it. Which I'm sure will happen anyway post-release, Stardock is one of the few companies I have confidence in to support their products - it's just an unfortunate fact that many people don't have that confidence, and judge a game on the out-of-box experience without even looking for a day-1 patch.
(would that make it me then? being the other inbetween post)
If so I am sorry for frustrating anyone with my 'tiny amount of time' comment... to be fair I said that it seems tiny... simply because there's not long for people to have a chance to first play the game a few times then comment if there are any large tactical battle related problems that jump out at people... memory leaks, graphics problems, anything like the advanced lighting issues that only pop up on certain systems, particle effects problems whatever it may or may not be... It is good to know balancing takes a short amount of time and also that all the ideas that don't make 1.0 aren't in vain as they're being read intently (adding to the 200 seconds of fun I'll look forward to). Although it'd be nice to have more time to help tweaks that's all... any help the non-technical can give
No, feature lockdown is feature lockdown. It means they aren't going to have one mechanic for the disk version, and completely re-do it for release. The difference between disk and release will be more fixes, balance, and polish, not features.
I'd like to add my thanks as well, simply for the amount of attention and feedback you folks give to all of us. It's a refreshing change of pace to see a game company actually interacting with the customers.
Personally, I fit into that category of not knowing what is possible & what isn't. I still toss out my ideas, knowing that they might be harder than I think, or that they might be ignored - because it might still stimulate the discussion, or the dev's ideas, and make for a better game.
I'll be honest - one of the things I am greatly looking forward to is the modding tools. Any game company is limited by the amount of people they put on a project, and by their own vision of what the game 'should' be. But when you throw the engine open to the thousands of people who like playing with mods... anything is possible. As many games that do allow modding have shown, even old 'unmodifiable' games like Fallout 2, where people made crafting mods.
It will be definitely interesting to see what mods are available for Elemental after a year.
Well yeah, I just mean you're not going to manufacture disks, and then put in dungeon crawling for the day0 patch I'm not talking about beta and release, but Gold and release
Having an army of coders, and designers working to fix issues, like you guys have, is silent and invisible.
The doom and gloom stuff from people, often in a sense is worse than arm chair quarterbacking. Because they create a perception that will need to be managed every so often. But when it's managed that meant someone had to wade into those areas, to explain it. So I can understand the team's frustrations. I tried to explain it over on my blog several times.
And if people had paid attention through this process.. they'd see that so much has been accomplished, and yet what they don't see is so very far ahead of where they are at. For example, when people wonder about Tactical Battles. They think it's being held back because they are somewhere along the beta 1 through 3 phase. Stuff that's just a frame. I don't. From what has been said, it's being held back to put some final polishing on, before it goes to the testers. What that polish entails doesn't bother me or make me worry about it. This is Stardock. It'll get tested as soon as the professionals deem it needs to be tested in the "Wild".
Other's take a less pragmatic view. That being said, I'd ask all those dev's to continue to come along and post and read the forums. For every Doom Troll (Should be a monster in the game as a easter egg to their vision), and Doomsayer group.. (this is seriously wanting me to hear about doom cults in the game.. who form out in the wasteland and instead of being benign, they actively seek to grow as factions.. to bring about the end of the world, and they should enslave people.. hmmm whole adventures here..)
Sorry back on track.. for every doom troll and batch of posters who have no concept of what's involved, and then go run their mouth. There are dozens of others out there who just read it and roll their eyes, and a few worry, and some of the more hardcore folks post about it. The philosophy of avoiding feeding the trolls.. is one we all hear. But that's not how real humans work. We get aggravated when folks who don't have a clue what they are talking about spout off about it.
Well I say, ignore them. Let a few dedicated community managers handle it, by posting links to some well written sticky about doom and gloom and ignorance, and let's get back to the stew pot of game making, and coming up with ideas that will have us talking about the game for years afterword.
And back to the comment by Brad.. that's sounding pretty cool with the plan for an Expansion Pack in February. This is one of those games I'll actually buy an expansion pack for. Soooooo looking forward to the evolution of this game!
I'm fine with an early expansion pack like that...assuming it isn't a "micro expansion" like those by Ironclad. Not to knock those guys or anything, I loved Sins(and eagerly await their next project), but even after all the expansions were released they just didn't feel like they added up.
Feature lockdown is the point at which one stops adding new "features," and start working on polish and bug fixes. Many development cycles include a "feature lockdown" phase. Feature lockdown is pretty soon now.
In stardock's case, they don't go "gold" for a while yet. Gold is when the "1.0" version of the game is sent to the shops. Like Frogboy said, we people who are already on the digital distribution system will probably never play "1.0," because after they go gold they'll features and start working on the game again. We'll probably see 1.01 on launch day.
What I'm remiss about is the modding beta will is likely to hit after feature lockdown, so the chances for sweeping changes will have to wait to post-gold or post-release or expansion-time. It's not the end of the world, and since Stardock is taking the time to release an offshoot build for us modders, I'll be quite happy actually. It could be worse but it isn't, and taking the time to go out of their way for us modders is a very good sign.
You certainly have my goodwill!
Yeah, combine the unlimited versatility of a fantasy setting with the easy modding, and there's really no limit to where the game can be taken. Whenever I get bummed that this or that feature isn't going to make it into the August release, or that there are 'directions of epicness' that remain unexplored, I just remind myself of one thing. To paraphrase a great man - the release date isn't the end, nor is it even the beginning of the end. It's merely the end of the beginning.
In other words, with all of the engine in place, take a look at what they can do in a week, and extrapolate that to what they'll be doing with this game for the next couple years. Good times ahead!
Well, I think one thing could be - a lot of us have never been let in this much of a beta process for a game before, so we don't know what to expect. And the reason why some of us are worried is - because we care about how the game turns out. I don't think it's anything malicious. Anyone who is in this beta, has wanted to be in this beta - either purchased a non-refundable place, or entered a competition and won a beta key. So I think it is very unlikely that people are deliberately trying to undermine the process. I think it's good though that the next beta will be opened sooner and have more of an impact - because we feel privileged to be part of the beta, we also care about the success of this very special game.
I believe that there is more niceness in the human race than it seems at first thought.
Best regards,Steven.
Hi Steven,
You've hit a nail on the head in regards to new people and the beta process. New folks who aren't used to the process and how much Stardock really can do is where a bit of the confusion comes from. But while you may phrase it as a question, others state the doom and gloom as a matter of personal fact. Which is where the tension comes in on. People who are only peripherally associated with the product are evaluating an incomplete package. But they repeatedly don't take into account what is commented on frequently. This is a beta, this is not to be fun. There will be bugs, and placeholders.
Brad and company can only say so long that this is a beta, and then hear people ignore that fact, and even in the same post talk about how they don't see how it's possible to reach the gold date, and so on. Before they get a bit tired of the process. Which ironically is one of this companies greatest charms. The open two way direct communication between developer and customer.
People who may be in the beta though who wanted to be in the beta, sometimes just don't understand how quickly things come together, and how far behind the stripped down build were playing now their internal version is.
I'll agree that I truly think your correct on the part about undermining the process and a lack of maligned intent. I don't feel they are being deliberately mean or some such. They just seem to be coming from a place of information/experience ignorance.
I really liken it to professional level play vs viewers calling it from their own experience. And in some cases, because they are in the beta they think they really know what's going on and that what they are playing represents the end product. It doesn't by a stretch.
Stardock could cut off the beta tomorrow, and slowly let professional PR people begin waging said PR campaign and everyone could Oooh and Aaaah.. at the marvelous final product. But they are letting everyone into the sausage factory. Letting people in a sense get to be a part of the Gaming Industry. And, experience how raw things are. Because they value the people's opinion. That opinion isn't always right, but it may unlock a door for a creative burst of ideas and information. But the more negative the tone comes, the less likely they are to hear it over the noise ratio to signal.
I don't know for example if they've even read my comments about satellite villages for cities for a more realistic organic growing fantasy civilization. But it's an idea that may just sit in the back burner. But it's an idea they can consider. The alternative to this idea is that in other cases folks may just be commenting about How they can't see this making it and Stardock is vastly over estimating where they are at. And that negativity may cloud their interest to read the forums that hour and the message it contained may slide down into the pits of the forum. It happens and it's okay.
Though I still would like to see Doom Trolls as monsters roaming the Waists™.
I too believe in the decency of humanity. And am glad to have had this dialog with you on this.
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