As we draw to a close on the Elemental Beta, I'd like to share my thoughts - not in a way to be slamming StarDock but in the vein of constructive criticism.
First, Kudos on bring us in so early in the process. Yes, it was indeed a sausage factory, but I think it was great, I think it was bold, and I believe it will make Elemental the great game that it has the potential of being. Thanks for the Dev journals, the constant updates, and for being straight with the community. I am so sick of companies that just lie,lie lie to their customers.
That said, I felt like there was not enough beta in the beta. I really think that the community deserved and the game would have benefited from a few months of seeing the game in a more or less complete state. I understand the benefits of the long Beta 1 cycle, and really have no problem with that, but all of the later stages just felt like they were crammed together and rushed to the point of negligible benefit. I am glad the game is coming out in August, and I realise the game is going to continue to evolve, probably significantly, after release. But the blunt truth is, after more than a year of following this games development CLOSELY, and involvement with the beta from day 1, we are a few short weeks from the code needing to go gold and I really have no idea what the final "complete" product is going to look like.
A good game is more than the sum of its parts, and yet all we have seen is parts usually with much and sometimes the majority of the game broken or intentionally disabled. It's impossible to give balance feedback in such an environment, because the very act of balancing implies that you have a known quantity on the other side of the scale. Too much was done in isolation, in my opinion, and the beta testers really never got the chance to give feedback on everything.
I have every confidence that you will release on schedule, I am sure your internal builds are much more finished than anything we have seen. I think the game is going to rock, don't get me wrong. I jsut think for a game coming out in August that we should have been seeing a pretty finished product in June at the latest. This is not a complaint, it is just an opinion of how I think you can improve your process in the future to make a better game.
I have very much appreciated being part of this process, and wish StarDock and the Elemental Team every success, and hope that we the fans get the amazing experience we have been waiting for.
Denryu
I'd like to second those sentiments. I really, really want this game to go gold in a state that will bring in the high Metacritic scores. I'm a big fan of Stardock's work and am taking it on faith that the internal betas are much more tested/proofread/polished/stable than what we see in the public beta. I'd feel terrible if a game with this much promise got poor reviews from insufficient polish.
I also would like to second these statements: because I wish EWoM to be the best fantasy strategy game ever it feels strange to realise I have no clue how the game will actually play at the same time as people are starting to "wrap up" the Beta. I think overall the discussions on the Forum have been quite constructive so it would have been nice if the "whole" game had also been presented to the community before release with enough time to propose how to make it even more engaging. That said, the Fourm/Beta experience has been amazing and Frogboy and Stardock should have all credit for an amazing contact with the fan base!
We'll bear these thoughts in mind for future betas.
We ran this beta pretty much as we've run every beta in the past. However, I do agree that in hindsight, we would have benefited by enabling the graphics engine earlier so people could provide feedback based on what the game looks like in its mostly complete state.
We will have an opportunity to address this as the first expansion pack for Elemental is due out in February 2011 and we can open up the beta a bit earlier for that.
Ditto... I think the reviews of the game will be lower simly due to having to extrapolate to how good the game will be. I can imagine that with a few months of polish and community modding before a 2011 release the game could start with the v1.0 build having built-in community content (other than wandering NPCs) and even some sample total conversions to get people online, downloading and interacting. Plus the balance we expect to have with enough tweaking and any features that enhance the gameplay that take too long to put in for august.
Still... other than harming the reviews maybe it's not so dire. There could be more sales overall simply because it'll have a bigger community by the time that more competition is on the shelves at christmas. I doubt the reviews will be terrible though, not once all the features and some of the polish gets put in during the next couple of weeks... still seems like a tiny amount of time for it to get to a decent state though.
[edit] Expansion pack that soon? (what happened to not holding things back for the release...) oh well, any hints as to what will be put into that? I'm just wondering... it would make sense if it's a feature (or features) that would take too long to include now +art assets that take time... but I doubt there'll be sufficient time for the desired community imput if it's to be released so soon. I just assume that it'll take a month or two of playing the completed game to know what needs adding and by then it may already be too late for any community suggestions that clash with the already completed art assets and design goals...
Thanks FrogMAN, and again I just love this kind of responsiveness from you! I do want to make it clear though, I am not necessarily even meaning graphics, in fact I am emphatically NOT meaning graphics - I would have loved to see a 2D amp only release that had ALL the pieces (research trees, diplomacy, all factions, all victory conditions,ALL of it) enabled at once. The graphics are unimportant to me and that was not what I felt was lacking at all. It was that everything was tested so piecemeal that I don't think anyone in beta (and I know I don't) have the first idea how the game is going to feel as far as pacing, balance, and even how "fun" it will be.
Again, thank you THANK YOU for letting us be involved in the process. I just wanted to clarify because based on your post it seemed like you misinterpreted my suggestion.
The only thing that really frustrates us (and honestly is making my team less interested in reading the forums) are reading posts by people who don't have any idea what is involved in game development and thus have no concept of the kinds of things that take time or not.
Sins of a Solar Empire originally didn't have space buildings. It was all in the tactical or logistical slots built abstractly on the planet. At this stage of its development we didn't even have infinite resources in or game pacing options and so on.
Galactic Civilizations didn't have starbases in at this point in its development.
Stardock wrote The Political Machine from start to finish in 90 days and that included writing the multiplayer from scratch.
When people see Elemental Beta 3A today, they should bear in mind that that represents what we could do in 2 days.
Every beta we have posts from people who predict doom because they really have no idea what they're talking about.
It's why most companies don't have public betas because they fear negative buzz by non-technical people who have never seen the "sausage factory" that is game development.
From where I'm sitting you're taking a brave path, but a good one too. Your games tend to come together to a level of completeness than many don't ever reach long after release.
I don't think I predicted doom at all, not sure if that was directed at me ...?
No, I said I think the game would have benefitted from beta players seeing a more feature complete (and I am talking nuts and bolts, not eye-candy!!) earlier. I am not dissing StarDock or you in any way, in fact I tried to make it clear that I feel justt he opposite towards you guys! I have never workd in GAME development but I do have 15 years in software development, and as you yourself has said, a game is really just another piece of software, but that is entertaining to use.
I hope for all the best for Elemental - it is the game I ahve been waiting over a decade for.
I certainly didn't mean to put you off in any way with my comments - it seems I have a knack for doing that as you have taken me to the toolshed a few times during the beta. That's fine, I just want it clear that I really AM trying to be helpful, I am not trying to piss you or anyone else of due to "speaking without a clue". And I believe you when you say that a lot can be done in the time between now and Gold Master. I guess the best thing would be for me to keep my post-mortem to myself until Beta is REALLY done.
Sorry if I gave offense or was irritating. Not my intention at all.
Hi Denryu - no, I wasn't directing my comment at you at all. I agree that in the future we'll unlock features sooner rather than later.
Wow, really? Sweet.
Now I really can't wait for this game to get off the ground and rolling along. I get the feeling I'm going to be playing this game for a long time.
I am not surprised to see the typical "its not ready for release" type posts.. these come from many sources of logic.. that for the most part are looking for more then what they currently see. sometimes these fears are well based and sometimes the stem from folks whose ideas where not (at least publicly moved on) or who have other motives..
However this in not Stardock's first dog and pony show. Their track record along with their assurances that we are not seeing the builds they are, is enough for me. I have been a long time stardock supporter and have seen their past work.. In my mind there is no doubt that if they did not believe that the game was going to be good on August 24, it would not be released..
What I expect is that this first iteration of the game will only the starting point.. imagine what would have happened if Jeff Perren and Gary Gygax's Chainmail game had had such a public beta before it was released .. what kind of public out cry would there have been that it was not ready? Following this further look at where the game and the industry it created, have taken us to today..
what I expect we will see is a good foundation game based on the hints we have seen here and in beta... I expect a fairly good story driven campaign, solid sandbox play and a nice start to what multiplayer can (and will be) .. then the flood gates of mods and expansions ( let alone the folks that use the reactor tools to create their own games) will open and if the potential many of us see here (frogboy included) we will have a lot to look forward to...
long live EWoM!
I don't think Frogboy was talking directly to you, Denryu. Your posts don't sound like they carry that message. He's just referencing all the recent theads/posts that popped up with things like "This game isn't ready, delay it more!".
When most companies do betas it's just for publicity and it's basically a finished product just needing some bug fixes. So, a lot of people are used to that sort of thing, and it's not as easy to see the big picture when they're just given little bits and pieces of a skeleton to make sure the bones move, so to speak, before putting all the meat on it. That's a totally gross analogy, but hey.
The only possible negative aspect of this kind of approach is that it does largely leave the testing community out of the finer balancing. We don't really know how the game will play on the biggest maps because we weren't able to play them until just recently (and 3A is the first build that will make them feasible since it won't be 40 goodie huts per gigantic map), and a lot of balance scaling issues get exposed when you're moving from a tiny map to a gigantic map. Likewise without having finished army limits, equipment, and Champion skills and such we can't really judge the relative power of early/late game Champions vs early/late game conventional troops. And without the Logistics research we can't judge how well army maintenance scales with empire size and if it's too steep, too forgiving, or just right.
These are the kinds of things we're mostly left to speculate on because there's just no real way for us to try it for ourselves and see "how it works". We end up doing more technical testing and broad testing ("this city building is kinda boring" or "champion leveling is kinda boring").
Balance is, of course, the easiest to work out in subsequent patches, so it's not the biggest of deals.
I don't think that was aimed at you, it was probably aimed at the persons claiming that sales will suffer and the reviews won't be very good if they choose to release next month instead of next year.
I don't really understand the concern though. Stardock have made it clear that they will be supporting and patching this game for a while regardless of its financial success. If Stardock are not worried about the deadline, then there's no reason for us to be worried about the deadline, as they stand to lose a lot more than us in the unlikely even that the game 'fails.'
Though you can guarantee that people will be saying that this game 'fails' come release anyway as gamers are notoriusly capricious and its nigh on impossible to please everyone in any case.
---
As for the Beta, while I do feel that we'd be able to make better suggestions if we knew more about the internal build etc. I am also very glad that they don't give us complete access to everything since, as well as keeping us focused on certain features - it also means that we won't get 'burnt out' on the game by the time it hits release.
I know I wouldn't be as excited to see how the full game will come together if I'd seen pretty much everything a month or two before release; essentially it means that the game will feel 'new' even to Beta testers who have been around since Beta 1.
I've already voted with my money by preordering and participating in the beta. Stardock has a impeccable record of sticking with their games and continuing to update and tweak after release, so I'm completely unconcerned for myself.
I was simply agreeing with Denryu that the methodology of the beta has made my confidence an act of faith, because I haven't played a representative sample of what the final product will be like yet. I also am not referring to graphics, but to complete game mechanics. But Brad Wardell and Stardock have never misled me, something I can say of few other gaming companies. If they say that the internal betas are much more advanced, proofread, and balanced and the gold version is going to fulfill their vision for the game, then I have no reason not believe it.
I also agree that the energy and time of all the beta participants will be most usefully focused on specific game feedback, leaving the business and creative decisions about when it's done to the fine people at Stardock who actually have all the information to judge the big picture.
P.S. If I were to pick one aspect of the game I'd like to have seen more time allowed for public input, it would have been the tactical battles. They were my favorite part of MoM.
I'm with the guy who wants details on the expansion pack. I have 2 words for yall though, flying mounts!
Also would like to see options for 'other planes' like alternate dimensions with great risks and rewards to explore.
To be fair, the cloth map beta was a good idea. With graphics enabled too early the cloth map wouldn't have gotten much testing because hey, graphics! But that part of the game got a really good look.
But you're right that we could have benefited from having more "game" earlier. It's been hard to provide anything other then speculation on several areas of the game (paricularly balance wise) simply because they haven't been in a package that could be compared.
Personally I tend to expect rough times in an actual beta. Often the case with many companies at this point is using a beta for publicity just before a release, the "beta" they use is a mostly polished thing with few bugs, all of which they can blame on the "beta" status of the product. In reality those "tests" are nothing of the sort. Stardock betas tend to be actual betas with real testing going on and all the frustrations a true beta will bring along with it.
That said I agree with the OP as far as testing balancing and so forth, without all the pieces to the puzzle it's really difficult for anyone to do anything but speculate on true balance. While I certainly understand the value in locking down sections to sort of funnel the testing into areas you really want to clean up, from a balance perspective our input wouldn't be of much use.
I know my more recent posts have been frustrated speculation about the changes to scale and combat. Things we as testers have not really seen or heard much of anything on other than very general announcements. ie. Real-time to turn based, and thousands of units to a few hundred in a battle. I can only imagine the frustration of trying to balance something in which unit groups range from 1-2,000 so while I'm disappointed with the current scale, I can appreciate why it is the way it is. If that isn't coming across in the posts I've made I apologize as that was not my intention.
We all like to throw ideas all over the place, not knowing whether things are feasible or not and honestly, how could we, we aren't developers. I'm sure (most) people posting concerns or grandiose ideas do not do so in a malicious manner. Very few of us can fully grasp everything that goes into it because it simply isn't our area of expertise. The fact that your team is always so interactive with the community is something to be admired and respected. It's most likely the reason you've got such a dedicated group of fans willing to deal with beta after beta that cause untold suffering and still keep coming back for more with each new product.
I'm still going to keep proposing ideas for systems and things that at least sound cool with no idea whether or not they are reasonable to implement, you never know when some crazy idea somebody posts might spark a reasonable idea in the devs minds
Is there a reason why you guys are releasing an expansion pack so early? Seems a bit unusual to release one within 4-5 of the original game's release.
My guess is that the expansion is due to the large amount of ideas that will have cropped up by the time the game goes gold, many from beta-testers, with a response of "sadly we don't have the development time". Judging from Dark Avatar and Twilight of the Arnor I'm sure it'll be more than many, especially in this age of... *shivers*... DLC. (BlazBlue charging for modified character colours comes to mind... )
I would expect it si because they have been given a lot of good ideas that simply can't make release. And it is enough new content to justify an expansion pack as opposed to patches.
It's a lot harder to pawn DLC off on a customer base when you release comprehensive modding tools with the game. Any expansion or DLC type content Stardock releases will have to be damn good to compete with what people are willing to do on their free time already. That said, I'm sure they are up to the challenge
I am wondering if the expansion pack is free or not.
From the amazing beta participation, I'd saw have around 200 'seconds of fun' that you guys have suggested, several of which are already planned out for post-release updates, but the truth is this type of game has so much friggin' potential, you could spend years on it and not get all those ideas in.
We're going to do our best to polish those 30 seconds for gold (I'll try and do a post on those later) then add more seconds as post-release development continues
So, does the beta start 2 months after Elemental's release?
I agree that the points where we could make good feedback were pretty short. For me though it wasn't just the graphics engine, but also the mechanics of how everything was coming together. I think a lot of us modders would have appreciated seeing more the technical parts of the game as it progressed.
I made a thread about that: https://forums.elementalgame.com/386767
Having access to more of the technical details would have helped us refine our suggestions and answer the inquiries of less technical community members.
It is almost certain that the modding beta is going to come out after the feature-lockdown, so for those of us whose primary interest is modding, we are getting the impression that most of our suggestions are not going to get in.
I'm okay with that. I only wish it could have been different.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
