This is the one bug or idea that I haven't seen posted by someone else first, so I'm finally putting it up!
Quoth Frogboy from Understanding The Fallen, Elemental, and Middle Earth:
They’re called “Fallen” because the history books are written by men and have a man-centric bias. [...] Obviously, Elemental takes place in a totally different universe. But hopefully this helps players understand where some of the terminology comes from and how it is relatable.
Speaking of man-centric bias, Tolkein really kinda had one. So it's unsurprising that he, like many folks, called humans "the race of men". But it does surprise me that Elemental is calling it "races of men", given that we've gotten to the point where we realize that the essential characteristics of humanity include women, too. Also, "The (fantasy) Race of Man" been repeated to the point of risking being more tired trope than anything. Given all that, the race option "Men" has stuck out like a hammered thumb that got stuck into a pot of boiling oil and then caught on a rusty nail every time I've started up a new game.
Yeah, yeah, I know "that's just the way humans were called", but while it's not a huge deal, it remains a deal. It won't keep me from playing (I've been off/on since day 1 of beta), but it's the one big scuff on this stellar game, and it's jarring every time.
So! This isn't just a gripe, it's an honest suggestion -- Given the lore, how's this for some ideas on things that might work as a decent replacement for Men/the races of men?
What I cannot believe is that we have humans in the game! How unoriginal! Down with tradition! Bring me monkeys! And chimps!
It should totally be a game about squirrels vs raccoons.
Oh god! Not a feminist! PFfft. Women having equal rights? Having less fear of unequal treatment? What will they ask for next? To wear...PANTS?!
Ugh, reminds me of what SyFy did to Earthsea.
Surely feminism doesn't refer to a pursuit of an egalitarian society but a pursuit of a female-dominated one? Presumably the word for the former would be a humanist?
The thing is is that its changed from being man to at least human or its still just race of man. The more encompassing a language is the more its relateable to everyone and not just one mindset.
Seconded.
Yeah! And how many platoons storming normany had dark elves?! Or how many of the fey tribe were slaughtered and raped by the conquistadors?! And how many...oh...wait...
The more steps we take away from gender binary the better. That's why its important.
Sounds good Mr. Pratchett.
No. feminism is not about a female dominiated society. You can suggest semantics, but that is not what it has been used for politically.
It's a video game, not a model of society. It's intended purely as a form of entertainment. It is the absolute *last* thing you should look to to "take steps away from gender binary".
Really? So being more accessible to someone's experience is less important, than, say...hidden pictures of family trips? I realize you were probably using an extreme to make a point, but it doesn't work. A video game's appeal is based on many things, and one of them is for the player to be able to relate to the game. You can have a game about some alien life form trying to keeps its egg sac safe, for example. But we can all still relate to the instinct to protect, importance of children, etc. Even if its in an intellectual and not emotional way. Having a "race of men" can cut out some of that relateability. It is also not a trivial choice of words, but easily changed, so I do not see the big deal in the OP making the request/suggestion.
I can't believe you people take time worrying about this crap. It's thinking like this that had volunteer firefighters who requested to be mobilized to assist with Hurrican Katrina being sent by FEMA for a week of "cultural sensitivity and diversity training" instead of... you know... helping.
I'd argue that over the last 10-20 years feminism has changed from its noble beginnings and now has indeed been perverted into a desire for a female-dominated society. I'll leave it at that though, not wanting to get into a full-on debate about this. Arguing about terminology, historical context etc notwithstanding i of course would like it if everybody could be treated equally, with no descrimination of either gender, so I'll leave it at that point I hope we can agree on .
I think I shall leave this thread before I get into a heated discussion. I hope everybody is enjoying the beta and look forward to perhaps playing some of you at the eventual multiplayer modes .
Biblically it does, old testament stuff. You're just jealous you didn't think of it first Wintersong.
look, i think that whatever the story calls for is what should be used. not everything has to appeal to everyone, and not everything has to make everybody feel comfortable. sometimes a story, setting or whatever is not fair or equal or stuff like that. if people are refered to the races of men then so be it. maybe the historians in the game thought women were lesser creatures and lifted men to a higher ideal. there is nothing wrong with this, if someone disagrees with it, thats GOOD. it makes you think, but it shouldn't change the way the character thinks, this would make very boring characters.
The main point though is the OP shouldn't be given shit for commenting on it. Some of the responses are not acceptable.
It's just terminology ffs. There is the Egalitarian trait as well as the ability to choose without penalty whatever gender we want. It is like saying "That ape was sure manlike." then complaining that the sentence is discriminating. I'm not trying to speak for everyone, but who gives? When they start giving the women worse stats we might start shouting unfairness. Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me...
(I know that the Egalitarian trait costs a point even though it doesn't give a direct benefit. The decorate land spells cost mana and research without a direct benefit, yet no one is complaining that the game is against planting flowers.)
The culture of the game is based upon the medieval setting (or indirectly via other fantasy settings that are) where the women did not fight, yet had power (if less than men). And from the point of the antagonists they most often view it from a perspective of war thus to them only those who fight matter. From what I remember of LotR (long since I read the books or watched the movies) the humans say people of Gondor, Rohan, the West, etc. whereas elves and dwarves and orcs call them the men. And I find it hard to believe it is to discriminate women.
I like binary gender. And it's good for society.
If you happen to be a lesbian, you may feel pressure from society to conform; but, for the vast majority of women, who are not lesbians, binary gender roles provide a healthy environment for them to develop.
When people refer to the "race of men" the generally mean men and women. Its just the way the language is used.
People read too much into these things. You can find them anywhere if you want to.
Gosh Stardock, you sexist pigs. Now that you've called a faction the Races of Men, might as well go all the way and throw in beating up prostitutes ala GTA and adding in an ability to force your queen to make you a sandwich.
Exactly. Even if this "problem" was rectified today, next week someone would complain that there is no transgender representation in the game or have some other gripe about PCness. There are already plenty of women in the game to my understanding; female citizens, soldiers, and even sovereigns. The game has more gender equality than real life (which is great in my book), but it's not enough because women aren't explicitly included in the name of the faction?
Races of Men just sounds cooler, especially compared to the suggestions in the OP. That's the only reason I can imagine for Tolkein and Stardock to use the term, not because they were sitting around wondering "Hmm, how can we marginalize women today?". Tolkein's world also had women who were powerful, wise, skilled, and in leadership positions. If someone can't distinguish between aesthetics and true discrimination and one little thing sticks out "like a hammered thumb that got stuck into a pot of boiling oil and then caught on a rusty nail" (really?) it shouldn't fall on Stardock IMO.
Or Carbon Lifeform.
Wait...that might be TOO generic
Besides, if I want a female kingdom/empire, can't I just:
-Create a female soverign
-Take Egalitarian for my custom faction
-Hire only female NPCs
-Design female warriors
Done and done, right? So if you wanted an Amazonian type faction - wouldn't this cover it?
Oh and as far as the name of the race - it doesn't matter. I don't see it as some kind of veiled attack on women. I mean...seriously?
Reminds me of those arguments that women are being mistreated because it's not called a "womanhole" or "personhole" but instead a "manhole". I've always thought genderized nouns were silly, though. Actor? One who acts. Why do we need "actress"? Waiter? -er = one who, not male who - so why do we need "waitress?"
So maybe I don't "get it" but I don't see how Elemental is slamming women because of the race name.
V-Ger used Carbon Unit, it's definitely fitting
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