"Viable" does not mean "Turn it into a super unit". Viable means the single champion remains *competitive*. If champions count against the army stack size limit, then a single champion needs to be competitive with the stack of units that can be used in his place. This is a balance issue and involves the Champion's stats (base and through leveling), equipment, and magic.

In order for this Champion to be Viable, he has to bring enough utility to the army so that when you have a choice between "Champion" and "Stack of Units", you don't automatically always choose "Stack of Units". Turning the Champion into a super-unit is not viable, it's overpowered and unbalanced.

And none of that turns him into a super unit able to kill a thousand guys! See. Tridus and myself aren't saying we don't want end-game Champions to be powerful and useful, but there's a big difference between "powerful" and "super-unit that can only be killed by another super-unit champion".

Come on now, we're not talking about dragons or super powerful fantastical creatures. We're talking guys-who-are-not-the-Sovereign.

You don't see a difference between an extremely rare and extremely powerful Non-Player Character Creature that (by past accounts) can relatively easily defeat a *Sovereign* and a bunch of guys you can recruit at the start of the game for 60 gold?

Because Champions are not in any way, shape, or form "fantastical". There is only one Sovereign and incredibly few really fantastical beings(to the point where, again, from past accounts, you're not even guaranteed to see a dragon on a map). There's a horde of Champions.

Because they are, by definition, mundane troops and are not "powerful beings". There is no "fantastical creature-oriented strategy". You are never going to have an army Dragons. You are going to be able to have an army of Champions. The only reason you see a double standard is because you treat Champions as "fantastical". Being able to hire a guy for 60 gold is not fantastical.

Yes, my friend, you're right, I Did say that. I didn't mean it quite so blatantly though, I was being a little abstract. When I say "Super Unit", like the Sovereign IS and Should Be, I mean a Single Character that's able to take out 100 Mundane Soldiers by Himself. If we don't have that then you guys better start asking them to REMOVE Volcano NOW, because if it's not removed I'm going to MELT Everyone's Cities with it and Kill Off WHOLE ARMIES with it...you know...Like A God...

Sound's like a Super Unit to me, wouldn't you agree?

Now What If the Sovereign Gives Up ALL HIS Essence to put into ONE Champion? Now that Champion is running around casting Volcano on EVERY City you have.

Why are things like Volcano and other MASS DESTRUCTION spells being allowed and everyone loves them but the slightest Idea of a "Super Unit" and everyone goes Ballistic? Do you not see what's already in game?

I have Dom 2, unfortunately I never got around to picking up Dom 3. That sounds pretty Bad Ass though if you ask me

LoL My friend, you do realize I WAS a Game Designer, right? I can Fax you my employment history if you really want

I'm not saying Un-Balance the shit out of the game and I FULLY Understand the need for Balance in Multi-Player, but we're not really discussing Multi-player here. They already stated that Multi-player would have many changes from Single Player and in many cases would have "It's Own Set Of Mechanics".

What I'm Trying to do is give us here a FUN Single Player Experience.

Annatar, if they get rid of the option to turn a Champion or Sovereign into a "Super Unit" they WILL NOT give that Epic "Sauron" feeling. They've said Time and Time again you'll be able to make a "Suaron" type character, Period. I can't count how many Times Frogboy himself has used the comparison in the last year. Sauron, before he had the ring cut off his finger by a "lucky hit" WAS a SUPER UNIT.

If they take that out then they take out Half the Inspiration for the game and the game Will Loose a Lot in my eyes.

Note: When I say Super Unit, I Do NOT MEAN a GOD UNIT.

If my "Army" is capped at 400 Men, then I WANT MY CHAMPION to KILL 100 OF THEM BY HIMSELF!!!!

That's not just because he him-self is a Bad-Ass, but in part because BY THAT TIME Mid to END GAME, he'll have Access to the END GAME SPELLS, Uber Powerful Sovereign Made MAGICAL ARMOR AND WEAPONS, a POWERFUL MOUNT. These Units need to be "Unique".

Think back to MoM. There were two abilities granted through the Item Maker that BROKE THE GAME. These were "Immunity to Magic" and "Physical Immunity". When you added both these to 1 Item then gave that item to a hero, they were UNTOUCHABLE. From that point on your could steam-roll everything in the game without a problem. Do I want THAT in Elemental? NO!!! THAT IS CHEESE!!!

Ok, so he's a guy "who is Not the Sovereign". What about for those people who want to have a "Stationary Sovereign" and put ALL THEIR POWER into ONE CHAMPION? What happens then? Now you have a Weak Sovereign who gave up ALL his power, and a GIMPED Champion because even though he has ALL the Sov's Power he can't even kill 50 guys by himself even With uber Tricked out END GAME Weapons and Armor.

The more it looks like things are going in this direction and with unit caps the Less Excited I'm getting about the game. It almost seems like they are shooting themselves (and us) in the foot.

On Top Of That, they haven't even said if this was HARD CODED or not. I don't Care What the Caps Are as Long as I CAN MOD THEM. Frogster....Give us an answer on that PLEASE. Are "Unit Caps" Hard Coded? I would guess not as most everything else has been left open, but you kinda danced around that question.

Ok guys, I'm officially Done with this thread. I'm feeling like I got hit with a Buss because I'm sick and I don't have the non-medicated brain capacity to continue this discussion without coming off like a real ass hole, so I'm just gonna back out of this one. PigeonPigeon, it's up to you now. DON'T LET THEM PUT IN HARD CAPS!!!!

For the Love of the Gods, Frogboy, PLEASE DON'T HARD CODE THIS!!!

Thanks All

And if you actually bother to read up to my first post on this issue, I said the Sovereign is the only guy who could actually be made into a "super unit" of sorts, because there is only ONE of him and if he dies it's game over. This is not the case for Champions.

Then.. that guy for all intents and purposes because your Sovereign, since you transferred all the essence over to him and your original Sovereign is more or less dead weight sitting in a town somewhere. And you don't have any artificially gimped Champion - you get whatever your Sovereign could be with that much essence, nothing more, nothing less.

Why do you assume otherwise? Statistically, the only difference between a Sovereign and a Champion, besides base stat variation, is that one has Essence and the other does not. If you transfer the essence from one to the other, they'll swap places with the exception that when the Champion dies, you won't outright lose the game. That's it. But if the Sovereign with that essense and those items would've been able to kill your "50 guys", then so would the Champion with that essense and those items.

Stop trying to wordplay, it's meaningless. "Fantastical creatures" refers to creatures like dragons that are extremely powerful and very rare. Yes, you can enable a Champion to cast some spells by giving them your essense, but this doesn't make them a fantastical creature. It makes him a dude who can cast spells. Surely this makes them more powerful, but not enough to challenge a dragon. Champions are dime a dozen, they cannot be equal in power (when imbued) to actual fantastical beings.

And again, stop grasping at very thin straws for your arguments by trying to wordplay.

Either I am doing a terrible job getting my point across, or you are doing a terrible job of understanding it Recruiting a hero for 60 gold at the beginning of the game does not a powerful champion make. To really get the champion to be any sort of menace, you've gotta imbue it with essence, you've gotta equip it, you've gotta fight a million battles to gain experience, and the champion has to survive them all. The initial investment may be small, sure, but you slowly add to that over time and getting a very powerful champion is something you have to work for, it does not just fall in your lap just because you have a champion.

Gotta agree with Raven here. The moment you imbue a champion with essence, they become a channeler . Just like your sovereign. There ceases to be any functional difference between an imbued channeler and a sovereign in the context of combat. I'd be ok with non-imbued champions being the equal of a dozen or two mundane troops, that sounds fine with me. But the moment I imbue them, that damn well better change!

They are not mundane. Imbued champions are channelers. They are as not mundane as your sovereign. If you are ok with sovereigns be able to become extremely powerful combatants, then I really can't see the logic in denying that ability to champions as well. If I am willing to pour the resources necessary into a champion or two to make them as powerful as some fantastical beings (NOT a dragon. Please don't put words in my mouth), why not? It just adds another way to play, so long as it's somewhat balanced. It should cost heaps of gold and currency to equip them that well, and it should cost the sovereign personal strength in the form of essence (there is nothing else, really). And it would take a lot of time, and surviving a lot of battles. The cost is definitely not 60 gold; there's a cost in essence, a continuing cost in gold, and a huge cost of time.

I am one of those people that doesn't want it to be possible for anyone, ever, to build up any unit in any game to be more powerful than a Dragon. At the very most, if you're playing on a massive map and end-game power-hoarding sovereign maybe could be a match for a Dragon, but never really any stronger. Champions shouldn't stand a chance against a Dragon, but should definitely be able to match some of the lesser fantastical beings.

EDIT: Regarding the argument that the Sovereign can be so powerful because there is only one of him and if he dies, you lose. Well, at the moment you really have to try hard to lose your Sovereign. Secondly, it's not like we're advocating being able to train up swarms of super champions; we are talking about very small numbers, here. And the more you try to make, the weaker each will be individually (spreading out resources, experience, etc). Secondly, having a very powerful Sovereign means that your Sovereign can defend himself very well; killing him is hard. Distributing much of your channeler's power amongst champions means that your Sovereign is now quite weak. If he gets caught, he can be killed that much easier. So building up powerful champions does not give you all the advantages of a sovereign without the disadvantages - your sovereign is now a much easier kill.

So Annatar and I don't have brains? Cmon Raven, that's beneath you.

Eh, give him a break. He's stressed out and medicated.

And Tridus, I think we've established that you and I pretty much want the same thing, and I think that Raven has agreed that he wants more or less what I want, and therefore by extension what you want despite his hyperbolic rhetoric .

But to be honest, Annatar has been making uncharacteristically little sense to me in this discussion. Usually even if I don't agree with Annatar, I at least can see and follow his logic. This time, I'm having trouble seeing it. As far as I can tell he is setting up a series of straw man arguments.

Which is largely irrelevant. The point was getting a Champion is cheap and easy. Sure you have to spend the game equipping and training them and all that good stuff, but the point is you can have MANY of them.

Do you understand what Imbuing means in terms of game mechanics? It means "Give your Champion 1 essence", which means your champion can now have mana and eventually as he gets more essence through levelups or whatever can actually cast a little bit. There's a huge difference between a Sovereign with 15 essence and a Champion with 1. The mere act of imbuing does not automagically (yes, that's on purpose) make a Champion amazingly powerful.

The logic is simply that while you only have ONE sovereign and you lose the game if he dies, you can have MANY champions as quickly and easily as a few gold in the beginning of the game. It's pretty simple. When you have one of something, it can be powerful because it is unique. When you have lots of something it is no longer unique and should not be as powerful.

You compared them, you put them in your own mouth.

You don't have to try hard at all to lose your Sovereign, and certainly not against an actual big army. Also, your assumption that you will only be able to have a few super champions is not reflected in game mechanics. Spreading out resources is irrelevant, they are infinite. Experience doesn't even get split, everyone fighting gets the same amount. Spreading out essence is also largely irrelevant since most of it will come from the Champions leveling up and other modifiers, not the Sovereign.

Losing Essence on your Sovereign only makes him cast fewer spells due to less mana. It does not directly make him "weaker". Even so, if you use up all your essence on Champions, any army will still have to go through your super champions to get to him.

If you repeatable imbue a Champion (which I think is possible) you could, in theory, basically "Switch roles" with a Champion and a Soverign. That is, the Champion has the strength that your Sovereign could have had if you had just left him alone. However, the champion is "expendable" in that it's not an insta-lose if you lose him. Of course, all those resources would make it a very very big defeat if you did lose him, but you wouldn't be seeing a game over screen. There is a difference. It means I can be aggressive and attack with my Champion.

If my super-champion gets lucky enough to fight 1v1 against the Soverign, even if it's 50% chance of victory, you can take it. If you lose, you have the chance to come back. If you win, you eliminate an opponent. If it's Sov vs. Sov then the game comes down to a coinflip. 

I do believe that imbuing (most) of your essence into a high-stat Champion you found in the early game will be a dominant multiplayer strat. You can build your Sov to have high Wisdom/Intelligence (or whatever) then you hope to find a good high hp/attack/defense champion, give him some good items, imbue him a bunch of times, send him on your way. 

I do want this to be fun single player. It is fun to beat up an AI. It doesn't have feelings, it doesn't QQ on the forums if it loses (or brag). BUT I really want it to be fun in multiplayer too. Crazy super units that can't be combated via mundane means are just that. As it is, for any Champion to fight a dozen men... unless the dozen men just really suck, well. It's unrealistic. I doubt that happens much in real life and that concept has just been popularized by Hollywood. Everything should have a counter. A counter that isn't "do the exact same thing but better". 

However... all in all this is really caused by instigating a hard-limit in armies. It makes the quality versus quantity argument weaker and it's very much bleh. Allowing champions to not be included helps but... I don't like it. If you remove that limit, s'long as I have a 5% chance to kill a super unit, I can throw enough mundane units at it until it dies. 

I am getting a little tired of explaining this. That I can recruit many champions is IRRELEVANT to this discussion if I DO NOT HAVE THE ABILITY to turn more than A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF THEM into VERY POWERFUL heroes. If I have 20 champions, and by diverting my resources and attention and efforts I can get two of them to be strong enough to stand toe-to-toe with some lesser fantastical creatures, then the fact that I have 18 other champions is completely besides the point if 5 so-so swordsmen can overcome them.

As BlackHatHedgehog said, I think it's possible to imbue champions repeatedly (correct me if I'm wrong - or, I'm about to play another game so I'll double check myself anyway), thus transferring more than 1 essence. And yes there is a huge difference between a sovereign with 15 essence and a champion with 1 essence. But is there much of a difference between a sovereign with 10 essence and a champion with 10 essence? Imbuing a champion with essence does not make a Champion amazingly powerful, but it does give them the potential. It brings them from a somewhat special mundane unit to a fledgling channeler with the ability, with time, experience and money, to grow into some amazing power. In addition, I specifically said that a power-hoarding sovereign should be able to reach heights beyond that of a champion (not a whole order of magnitude, but higher nonetheless).

Also, I must say, I do wish essence had a larger role than merely being the mana cap. It's importance and interestingness has been largely robbed from it; I understand many of the changes and I support some and don't much like others, but I wish they'd find a way to bring back its import. I'd suggest having essence boost other stats, but now that would strangely tie the mana cap into combat strength and everything else and would just be weird.

And here you yet again utterly and completely miss the point. I'll restate it just for emphasis. You will NOT have MANY very powerful champions, and you DEFINITELY will NOT have ANY of them "quickly and easily." You might have many plain old champions, and they may be easy and cheap, but you would NOT be able to have many very powerful ones.

When you have lots of something, and it takes substantial effort and is essentially impossible to get more than a small number of those somethings to really become powerful, then they can have the potential to be very powerful because a POWERFUL one of those somethings will also, effectively, be unique. Stop with the straw men.

I absolutely did not. Here is what I wrote:

"Yes, I will grant you that. If we are going to have some silly hard cap on the number of units we can have in our armies, and if champions and other special units count towards that limit, then they shouldn't be stronger than the most powerful mundane units. But, then Elemental ceases to be the game it was meant to be. So a Dragon now can no longer be the match of ~20 top-of-the-line mundane soldiers? What about my sovereign? What about all the other fantastical creatures?"

I was simply pointing out that your argument, as you continue to formulate it, applies equally well to everything else in the game including sovereigns and dragons and all fantastical creatures. Why are you only trying to apply it to champions? I nowhere ever said that champions should have potential comparable to that of a dragon. If champions must be limited by the strength of the largest grouping of troops for the sake of balance, then why doesn't that need to hold for everything else? "Because they're fantastical!!!!!!" is a piece of shit of an argument. A magic-wielding hero is pretty fantastical, not to mention "fantastical" is a label and "balance" does not stop for fantastical game elements.

I have lost very few, if any, games by losing my sovereign. In fact, I'm not sure if that's happened even once since beta 1. Even if my sov loses in combat, he pretty much always appears back in town and a few turns later is good as new. Spreading out resources is absolutely not irrelevent, and while they are infinite you do not have an infinite income of them. Games do not last forever, and so the amount of resources gathered in a given game is very finite, and the player must choose where and how to allocate them. If they were infinite then every city would be a metropolis, every soldier would have the best equipment and training, every technology would be researched, every spell would be known. The finite income of resources is what forces choices, the infinite availability just means you don't need to rush for your share of them (and yes, it does slightly diminish the importance of some choices, as you can always get more with enough time).

Experience not splitting is something I don't like, and is going to be hugely abused. It greatly favors always fighting everything with as many troops, champions, creatures, etc as you possibly can to get the most experience. Where in reality 200 knights, 50 longbowman and a dragon killing a spider shouldn't really get anyone involved a noticeable amount of xp.

That essence is no longer very important is the tragic result of all its uses being stripped away one by one until nothing is left. Right now it is a fancy monicker being used instead of "Maximum Mana." It used to be the all-important finite resource that would force meaningful decisions upon people and enable us to develope our kingdoms and use our sovereigns in a huge variety of ways, and now it is some throw away stat that is in many ways less important than some of the others.

A good strategy would entail finding away to get to his sovereign without having to confront those champions. If your opponent has several powerful champions (and therefore, each less powerful than such a champion would've been if there were only one), then you'd probably be able to manage getting around at least some of them. If you manage to push him back until his sovereign and all his powerful champions and armies are holed up inside his capital, then clearly you have the upper hand in the conflict. If he's hiding in his capital, then his champions were clearly unable to turn the tide against you and he'll fall anyway.