Hi everyone,
Here is my suggestion to add a important layer of tactic to the current spell system :
Spell specialisation / ranking – Improving the same spell up to 10 levels of power
Rather than having several version of the “same spell” with upgraded damage/effects (like a fireblast spell with range 1 causing INT*1.4 damage vs a Firebolt range 1, INT*1.5) we could benefit from having a lower number of spells but each with a personalised effect, visual animation and strategical value.
To do so, I suggest that rather than researching only ONCE a spell, we could research it further up to 10 levels of specialisation, that will improve the spell damage and effect (similar to the INT stat) and lower the cost.
So, as for the research refined farming, we should be able to research the same “firebolt” spell over and over (up to 10 ranks), adding some damage, reducing the cost, at each iteration.
The research cost could be linear or exponential, but the idea behind this suggestion is:
1) This will add a tactical value of specialising in a spell rather than researching everything.
2) A mage could be “dangerous” even with a lower number of spellbooks, by specialising in few chosen spells. So a mage with the FIRE spellbook putting almost all his effort to increase his fireball spell could be deadly, but he will have less versatility than a mage having access to 80+ spells.
So, I suggest that we use the spells ranks like this:
Including the RANK of the spells in the spell definition:
By default, when we research a spell for the first time, I suggest that we see it as Spellname (Firebolt since we are at rank 0) but if we have researched it six time, we will be shown as Firebolt(6).
Feel free to comment and add your suggestions,
Thanks,
Don't want to get this concept lost, it is a good game mechanic. I'm not sure about your formula or the need to go up 10 levels, but INT should definately have an impact on your spell effectiveness (Wisdom should be spell efficiency). A cookie for you...
I would rather see specialization on a school level instead of individual spells. That's why I've been suggesting they add an Arcane or Sorcery school that would cover any spells that currently don't fit in elemental schools, life or death. That would include the mind/spirit type magic and counterspells.
Specialization could actually lower mana cost for spells. You could then freely pump more mana into them to make them more powerful a la Master of Magic. Range should also be a factor and make spells more mana expensive. So specialization would indirectly boost your range as well. The lower the initial cost, the more potential the spells would have.
I would rather have Intelligence connected to spell research and Essence connected to power potential of the Sovereign. I think there probably is one spellcasting attribute too many currently but Wisdom/Willpower could be related to Mana regeneration.
Good idea really.
I would offer another possible solution to the Level(s) issue that could be resolved by having the Spell do damage to more Targets as it levels.
So at L0 it hits and damages the "sole selected" target. At every subsequent Level that same spell hits the "selected" target and a number of adjacent tiles equal to its level.
That would add a true tactical use as it levels as selecting a lone or forward target may result in less than an optimal adjacency spread and thus potential damage could be lost.
So say, at L4 the best target in an enemy Stack would be anyone in the said Stack that has 3 tiles that are occupied and adjacent to them.
I might curb the # of available Levels to 5 but that is just me.
As long as a fireball spell cast by me has the potential to be different from the one cast by another Sovereign, I'll be happy.
Quoting Nathikal, reply 4As long as a fireball spell cast by me has the potential to be different from the one cast by another Sovereign, I'll be happy.
Different how exactly?
Like his is always a Fire Cracker and your is always a ThermoNuclear explosion type different?
Thanks for your comments !
As I said in my original post, the real idea behind this concept is to have the capacity to improve certain spells VS having the only straight forwarded goal to research everything.
If I have this choice, I’ll wonder each time if I should allocate more time/spellpoint to improve my chain lightning spell rather than choosing another spell from the list. This concept could really add a real level of strategy to the game.
In multiplayer, my adversary could for example decide to really improve one or 2 damage dealing ice spell, and begin to eradicate my troops. To react, I COULD decide to spend my next 40 turns to boost my RESISTANCE TO ICE spell, that may at level 0 create a 2 ice damage shield, but at lvl 10 for example, nullify the first 22 ice damage dealt to my army buffed with the spell.
And last but not least, it can allow a mage with a low amount of spells books to have something to research and improve. If we do so, nobody will end a game with the same spells, the same tactical possibilities, since most of us will chose to improve some spells rather than researching the whole potential spell book.
And one important thing that should not be overlooked is that by having the ability to "buff" many spell types, as a result of both additional research and your INT score, it essentially creates many more spells to play with in the game. I'd rather have 100 well-balanced spells of which half could be buffed than 300 unique spells lacking in balance, ingenuity, etc. As Nathikal pointed out:
Quoting LeBlaque, reply 7And one important thing that should not be overlooked is that by having the ability to "buff" many spell types, as a result of both additional research and your INT score, it essentially creates many more spells to play with in the game. I'd rather have 100 well-balanced spells of which half could be buffed than 300 unique spells lacking in balance, ingenuity, etc. As Nathikal pointed out:As long as a fireball spell cast by me has the potential to be different from the one cast by another Sovereign, I'll be happy.
Again, I ask, different how? A Fireball is a Fireball. The only possible potential difference would be the power/damage output. A L3 buffed up FB is not different than a L4 buffed up FB...
I do not disagree that 100 Balanced spells would beat 300 that aren't but power levels is not a real gauge of spell differentiation...
But why not a "burning" fireball ? or multiple fireball ? Or fireball that track it's target ? Or a fireball that explodes on contact ? Tht's not just "buffs".
how about we treat spells like the cap ships from sins? You can level them up in 4+ areas and choose to specialise or to generalise each spell with it being extremely hard to reach level (6) for an ultimate upgrade for the spell adding a massive boost. With maybe another ultimate at lv 12? so a fireball could gain an instant death effect, AOE and damage boosts... or simply be much cheaper to cast.
Quoting vieuxchat, reply 9But why not a "burning" fireball ? or multiple fireball ? Or fireball that track it's target ? Or a fireball that explodes on contact ? Tht's not just "buffs".
OK, a Fireball that "Burns" vs a Fireball that doesn't. Got it.
Multiple Fireballs - aka "Fire Storm"
A Fireball (or multiple) that track - aka "Magic Missile"
I can't see where those satisfy the requirment of
"As long as a fireball spell cast by me has the potential to be different from the one cast by another Sovereign, I'll be happy."
P.S. I am not trying to be difficult either....
It depends if the spells are pre-made or if you can use "buffs" on the fly. For instance you can have 1 buffs on any spell you cast, then you cast fireball vs multiple target while in the meantime your opponent cast a fireball that burns.
It's the same "spell" but as you specialized in some ways you can alter them to your need.
If you want them to be really different you can add school specializations, or buffs that need some shards or buffs like phase-fireball (a fireball that disapear : you can't counter it) or a fireball so tiny that it can past through the best armors, or a fireball that is in fact a waterball, or a fireball that doesn't explode but follow it's target blinding it and making is more prone to attacks, and if the target move in the way of the fireball it explodes, a fireball that burns everything on its path.
Isn't that the potential to get different fireballs with different casters ?
I, too, am not trying to be difficult either.
"a fireball that is in fact a waterball,"
Now it may just be me but I cannot fathom how you can call a "Waterball" a "Fireball" no mater how many buffs it has applied. What does a Waterball do even? Put out the other guys Fireballs?
That is my point. A Fireball is a Fireball. If you want a different effect using Fire, then create it and call it whatever, but Fireball is already used.
If you want. But gameplay-wise it's really different. Because you know your opponent can cast a fireball, but you don't know if he will cast a fireball (that is in fact a waterball, so if you placed fire wards on your units you'll be sorry.) or a fireball with multiple targets (so should you put a strong magical protection on one unit or several weak protection on all of your units ?).
If spells are delayed and your opponent can see what you are casting then he would only see "fireball" and not "fireball that is in fact a water ball" or "firebstorm" or etc. It's not just about names, it's about what your opponent can know of your tactics, it opens a lot of options and mind-games "What will he do ? should I do this or that ? But if that fireball is in fact a .. ?"
Fireball > Waterball is nonsensical. You can't "buff" a fire spell into water.
At best, you would be able to say "Okay, I'll make my fireball explode bigger" (slightly increased damage radius), or "Okay, I'll make my fireball burn hotter" (higher Damage over Time dealt to unit affected by fireball). So one Sovereign could throw a fireball that's a bit more effective against groups of units, and another can throw a fireball that burns fewer targets, but burns them longer/for more damage.
That's the only kind spell modification that would make sense.
The FireWaterBall is just an example of what could be done with feint, countermagic and the like. You throw a waterball that looks like a fireball. When your caster is waving hands, your opponent will see "AAA is casting a Fireball". So you cast a protection from fire, but it won't be any use because it's a "false" fireball.
Maybe we could use false spells that would cost no mana, in order to push your opponent to use its mana in protective spells. A high wisdom could let you know that the spell is a fake.
You keep treating Elemental as an RPG, where stuff like this actually works. As Frogboy pointed out in another thread, this isn't an RPG. When you're on the world map, if someone is casting a spell, he will cast it before you're able to do anything. There is no "AAA is casting .." anything. There is no "Caster is waving hands for 6 seconds while casting allowing you to interrupt his cast with a counter-spell".
It's a turn based strategy game. Stuff like this does not work nor belong in it.
Strategic spells can take up some turns. And you could spy on them. In MoM you could. And if you know your opponent will cast a "volcano" then you start protecting every city you can. But if the opponent has cast a "fake" volcano, then you used up all your mana for nothing.
In tactical battle it would be interesting to delay magical casting. Most games (and not RPGs) have an instant system of casting spells. You could delay them and let player use some counter magic. I know it won't be in the vanilla game, but why not not in an expansion ? It is doable (and it requires a bit of work). It's not because it has never been seen that it can't be done.
Hopefully this will answer your question, John, but note it is only ideas.
A "better" fireball would have:
Increased Total Damage Potential; Increased Radius of Effect; Reduced % Chance for Save; Increased Collateral Damage Potential. So, by example:
A Level 1 "Fireball" 8-24 damage; Radius of "1"; +1 to Save for 1/2 damage; No Collateral Damage.
A Level 10 "FireBall" 40-120 damage; Radius of "5;" -3 to Save for 1/2 damage; All non-metal armors/weapons must save or be destroyed (there goes your leather armor and pointy wooden spear).
Just examples mind you....
Has anyone ever played wizardry 8? A good game for magic spells, you could increase the power of any spell at any time if you have the mana but it would be affected by your skill... so if you are skilled lv 1 is green, but unskilled lv 1 is yellow and above are red. Casting yellow and red can have unexpected and harmful effects (or simply fail). But the duration and power scales with mana use. However, each spell never changed it's functions. I'm still undecided if that was a potential limitation and extra power should have additional effects or if a fireball should always simply be strong or weak. (the change from single target to area of effect versions of spells increased the cost 5+ times, so it would be an expensive/ high point cost / high level upgrade)
Perhaps we could have infinite upgrades to most spells with a simple bonus to effects or to maximum additional mana supplied safely. I think that makes sense and would make the smaller attack spells more useful even late game... although for additional effects... They would have to be very special enhancements to spells, very expensive or a special choice moment. E.g.
Fire spit - low damage, single target, easy to resist, long range+ to damage per levelonce 500 (or x) spell points have been invested make a choice:1. Increased damage2. Reduced damage + become AOE3. DoT4. Hard to resist
Further levels increase the change, so make it do even more damage, more targets, more DoT and make it fairly irresistable.
Healing - low healing, single target, high cost+ healing per levelChoice:1. Massively reduce cost2. Increase healing amount3. Cleanse DoT4. Buff any further healing to target5. Decrease in healing amount but add AOE6. Temporary regen effect.
I mentioned sins before because even with infinate research I wouldn't want every possible boost to a spell to be equipped/researched/selelcted... rather like sins starbases I would want one player to increase damage of a spell and another to focus on an extra effect in the way that two highly upgraded starbases could be very different... (even if both boost damage one could pick say regeneration boost the other a frontal shield, another a phase gate stabiliser...)
I like the idea of having to choose... I'm not sure if the choice should be permenant or specific to each caster... Like your illusion mage can boost all his spells to make them harder to resist, or reduce damage but make a phantasmal AOE to spells... your angry flaming destroyer can massively increase damage or cause DoT or give extra force to all attacks (causes terrain damage, knockback, can attack structures or + damage).
Either way I think you should only be able to equip them or have the effect if you've invested more spell points into that spell... so multiple levels of research and spell upgrades seem like a great idea to me.
I wasn't misunderstanding the differences between FB power levels, as I even noted in the quote above...but the abstract notion, in the follow-up posts of a Fireball, not actually being a Fireballl, but a Waterball....
vieuxchat went on to explain the premise he was using, feint the enemy into thinking one thing vs what actually transpires on the battlefield. We are going to be fighting TB, so I go and then you go. If they use multi turn spells, then perhaps dispelling may be possible, but on my single turn, my Magic will impact its target, then they will get to respond in kind.
vieuxchat's idea is not a bad one. It just may be a bit out of scope for E:WoM at this time.
I am not sure if leveling up a spell is the best way to differentiate one fireball from another (and i think 10 is way to many levels but I do like the idea over all).. here are a few suggestions (if some were already suggested apologies in advance)
1) purely cosmetic differences for example effect color and animation.. again purely cosmetic but none the less a nice touch of customization.
2) as has been touched upon allowing the choice of different spell bonus effects for each rank of specialization. however at each level a choice of options that ate then not again available for that spell. for example in the fireball example at 1st level of specialization choice could be + to range, + to area of effect, or + to damage. then at second level of specialization choice might be added damage over time, reduced mana cost, of reduced chance of target to mitigate damage.... further each spell that can be upgraded (not all should) should have a limit of like 3 or 4 levels of specialization. potentially this could make for some real differences between casters fireballs with out getting to unwieldy.. (an i suspect this would be far more likely in an expansion/ update vs day 0 version of game.
3)exclusion of other spell type specializations. in this case say i choose to specialize in fire spells, which could reduce cost, extend duration, add to damage ect.. I would then not have access to for example opposite school spells, ice spells perhaps in this case..
just my ideas for this already potential nice touch to the game...
I actually like this idea quite a bit.
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