Love the game so far, Brad. However, there are some VERY serious issues with the magic system that need at the very least looked at again, if not changed/removed. So anyone who has some brutal if honest opinions/observations feel free to add them.
Major Issues:
By repeatedly casting the same Brilliant over and over on my capital city I was able to generate ludicrous amounts of research. Noticed 'Enchantment Slots' mentioned. Hopefully this fixes it. Maybe that is just a bug? Please say yes. I had a level 2 city with 200 research, just for shits and giggles... yikes. Recommendations: 'Slots' and/or making the enchantment based off of pop + buildings + number of city enchant slots allocated to enchantment would help even this out.
Um... Some types of dragon may eat gold. But your average Troll/goblin/familiar will not. Recommendations: Have Intel or wisdom determine your summon cap. Wisdom hardly does jack otherwise anyway. (Monastic buildup negates any real need for Wis unless you are going 0 civtech)
As a sovereign you shouldn't have to personally oversee EVERY enchantment. Obviously the most powerful spells will need to be restricted to the most dangerous/most valuable unit Can't just have Joejack the Conjurer brewing up volcanoes. But Joejack should have the ability to summon 2-3 imps and cast a minor planar banishment.
Middling Issues:
As you have noted, currently 'pluck your eyes out horrible'. As you get more spells this becomes more important. A matrix would be superb. Recommendations: Having the spells arranged in a Book:Function matrix would be both quick and expandable. So across the top you would have something like Favorite, Fire, Air, Water, Earth, Summoning, Ruin. Upon selecting any of those top tabs, the side tabs would appear and have categorical fields based on the primary selector. I.E. Selecting Air, would bring up sidetabs like Direct, Area, Combat persistent, Combat buff, Enchantment, World and such. Favorite Tab would allow you to make a custom quick list for rapid spanking action.
Not a huge issue, but I would like to see no less than 200 spells at launch
Fireball should not require a shard. Godly storm of Fireballs of death should take 2 or 3.
This would also help cleanup the research enormously. Research Fireburst > Fireball > Explosion > Flaming Pink pony poo Would also be a good secondary check on early game Ragnarok'ing.
And that as they say is that. Despite the cruelty I have high hopes for this game.
Join me next time for Brutally Honest Tactical Combat Analysis and Champion Performance :}.
I think the whole game mechanic of Essence is indeed critical and is one that distinguishes this magic system. Sovereign's SHOULD "permanently" lose Essence for those exceptionally important endeavors, whether a super spell (requiring mana, essence and shards), imbuing, one-time doubling of their mana pool for a particularly vicious combat encourter, etc. The only way to regain this Essence is through leveling (experience gain) or adventuring (finding an Item, Potion, Scroll, etc.).
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest you lose all your Essence (like your HP), your dead....
On the other hand, Mana should be the sole element necessary to power the large majority of spells. Good mana pool mechanics are discussed in a variety of posts in this thread and elsewhere.
Can you maybe just make a handicap, I like my sovereign starting as a weakling, makes it mean so much more when you get to endgame. Maybe something like Sovereign starts with a handicap of 2 - 5 spells or something, or none at all, I feel that by forcing you to start at a certain point will decrease the challenge later in the game. you wont be able to customize it to be more difficult you'll just always have to start with spells.
I agree, and the use of essence definitely needs some rebalancing and cleaning up. To go along with Essence being a critical stat, I would love to see it influence the Sovereign's stats. A stat bonus for each point of essence, or a spell damage bonus - anything that makes a notable difference between having and not having. Right now the Essence itself doesn't do anything for your Sovereign other than affecting his mana pool (which, as discussed in great detail already, is Bad). Especially if the mana pool mechanic is changed, changes in essence won't have an effect on the Sovereign. Dropping from 10 to 5 you just don't feel, despite Essence basically being his "life force". As is commonly represented in fantasy, performing difficult feats and spell casts leaves the caster physically drained, which would be perfectly represented (and a good addition to the game in my opinion) with Essence's influence on the Sovereign's statistics.
Since the other thread blew up I'll repost some stuff here.
Regarding Essence, I think it would be cool if it could be "invested" into things without permanently losing it. E.g. plant a Seed of Life in the ground that would start reviving the land around it. The Seed would remain there and it could be dispeled by enemy Sovereigns (or a two faced ally). Therefore planting it under your capital would be beneficial. If the Seed would be dispeled, the Essence would try to return to the caster but could be stolen by another Sovereign using Death magic. I think it would also be cool that if the seed would stay in the earth long enough it could create a Tree of Life that would act as a Shard for Life magic. Same thing with imbuing a champion with Essence - if they die the Essence would try to return to the caster but could be stolen by another Sovereign.
Perhaps powerful global enchantments would require you to transfer some Essence into a Shard to maintain the enchantment? And again, if the enchantment is dispeled or you choose to end it, you get the Essence back. Becoming temporarily weaker while maintaining something really powerfu like permanent thunderstorms sounds appropriate I think.
After giving a bit more thought to the Essence issue, there are a number of low pain solutions I can think of:
{Preface: The more you look, the more you realize that max mana CANNOT be tied to Essence or you will have only 1 character per faction that is able to effectively spell cast. I.E. you would siphon all Essence from sov/descendants to a single hero/sov}
Any combo of the below or just for suggestions.
Essence x2 = max mana spent per turn. Ala Age of wonders. With mana determined by Level/Int/wisdom [Essence -10] x5 = % spell modifier for Combat/summons in addition to other mods for Damage/healing/summonlevels Essence/3 = +all stats Any combo of the above
.05 a turn would be effectively slow if no other options existed .01 a turn + some population mod .01 a turn + building/shard mods
Just some ideas
For ease and simplicity of use make Essence regen be tied to "owned Shards", whether Pioneer captured (.5x) or City encased (1x or 1.5) based. This would encourages both early scouting (dangerous) and City based (safer) at (1.5x) per Shard.
Shard types don't matter in regards to regen, but it still matters to which Magic spell types and the need for certain Shards to be owned to cast said spell types.
If I scout early and manage to Pio 2 shards (Air/Ice), while dropping my first City on another (Fire), I have a current Essence regen rate of 2(x). (remote is set at .5x each)
Since I still require time to research the Magic needed to use that bonus Essence, via whatever means I choose, I should be able to stockpile my early gains to a Max. level based on my starting SoV stats.
If I lose the 2 Pio based sources, then my bad, but my regen remains 1(x) due to the City source.All Cities lost is a Death Knell anyways.
I would make note of the the ideas in the Essence based on Mana thread elsewhere on that thought.
Something simple:
Essence
- Used to create cities, limits city building everywhere (like in Civ games).
- Activate magic nodes, this would help limit how many nodes anyone can get in a short time. I don't want to just play capture the the flag (aka nodes).
Champion Magic (Tactical/Local)
Use mana of champions to cast spells, based on int/wisdom.
Summoned creatures use the champions Mana each turn, this way you don't have 100's of summoned creatures all over the map.
Node Magic (Area/World)
- This should come from one of the magic nodes (Air, Earth, Fire, Water)
- Node magic, where each node produces it's own type of mana (Fire Mana, Earth Mana, etc.)
- Node mana is used to cast area/world spells.
After reading thru this entire thread and doing some additional thinking, I've tried to organize my thoughts. There are so many GREAT ideas in this thread it took me all day to digest them. I'm not adding too many new ideas here, but did want to support the ideas I truly thought would add fun factor to the game.
In keeping with the original definitions for stats (ESSENCE, MANA, WISDOM, INTELLIGENCE) as closely as possible, here's what my preferences are, apologies for the verbosity:
ESSENCE LOSS & REGEN
I feel requiring a permanent ESSENCE cost is fine for a very select amount of spells where it makes sense, but I think more should only result in a temporary reduction. Some constructs discussed of MAX ESSENCE with temporary and permanent loss solve this I believe.
Something like this works for me:
I agree about a very slow ESSENCE regeneration for temporary losses. I also like the ideas about harvested shards and/or settlements (especially with certain improvements) being responsible or contributing to ESSENCE regeneration.
I also like the idea where can choose how much ESSENCE to sacrifice for certain spells increasing the probability of a better/stronger result. Put 2 or 3 ESSENCE into a revive spell and the area is greatly increased, or more fertile tiles are produced. Put more into a SUMMON spell and the elemental/demon has increased HP, stats, or magic ability.
ESSENCE and MANA
Max mana ought to be dependent on a character's WIS and ESSENCE stats in some form me thinks. A casters LEVEL would also make sense. I'm not sure if current or max ESSENCE would be more apropos, but straight multiplying of these seems to give too much variation.
Balance testing would surely need to be done regardless of the equation used, but perhaps something like: MAX MANA = (LEVEL + WISDOM) * (ESSENCE / 10)
I also think ESSENCE should determine mana regeneration (e.g. ESSENCE / 10). It makes intuitive sense to me.
ENCHANTMENTS
I also think the ideas about buffs and enchantments having slots & taking spell points to maintain have merit.
SPELL POINTS & WISDOM
I don’t really like the hard (read: contrived) cap on spell points. I think this can be removed.
First, see enchantments. Second, lose (or greatly reduce) building contributions (ala Monastery). I'd like to see all casters have a WIS stat and generate spell points. In conjunction, more spell points might be required to learn most spells. Also, requiring a NPC/Caster to be stationed in the city/improvement to get the spell points each turn would solve this. This would also force strategic use of casters in armies vs. researchers/teachers.
I like that WIS determines spell point generation each turn.
INTERFACE
I like the ideas about separating known from un-researched spells and the tab/matrix system that were described. A good queue system will reduce wasted spell points and make it feel more like researching spells (and less like buying them).
I would be extremely pleased if each caster was able to keep his/her own unique spell book(s). Having the ability to trade/teach them (provided the other caster has appropriate stat levels) similar to equipment trading. This construct could serve to specialize casters further and make them a more strategic asset. There are certainly larger implications with this construct however, such as spell point research, but one can hope
INTELLIGENCE STAT
My view is that the INT stat ought to have varied effects on a spells results. It may already be doing all of these things, but I can't tell from the beta testing thus far.
INT should affect:
SHARDS, SPELLS, & SCHOOLS (OH MY!)
Kudos to you for going to all the trouble ; I'm not sure most of us do that here (read ALL)-- though we should-- on these lengthy and often verbose threads. I particularly like that you support a few of my posted game mechanic concepts .
I dont know if that idea was already mentioned, so i am just writing away and you flame me if it is just a repeat
Make shards neutral, not bound to a specific element at start.
Each of the elements that your Sov starts with gives the Sov the ability to atune a neutral shard to that element. So even if your Sov starts with just one spellbook (lets say fire), the shards he finds will be usefull.
Atunement from neutral should be free of cost, but to clear an atunement, you should need to pay essence (to avoid shard ping pong in later games).
But shards should also be usefull to Sov's who dont have spellbooks. How about them giving boni to the city that they are build in.
Some ideas:
Earth - Fertility is increased (+ Food); Walls are stronger (+2 defense in city)
Fire - Fires in the city burn much hotter (+ Armory production bonus); Hotheaded population (Soldiers trained here get Berzerk ability)
Air - Things seem lighter here (+Construction Boni); Airport (Special Building Airport - can construct Airships (faster caravans))
Water - Pure Water (+ Population grows); Healing Spring (+ Regen bonus); Cleansening Water (Disenchantments cast here have there power increased)
Neutral - Sparkly (+ Influence / Prestige); Raw Power (Enchantments cast here / Items created here have their power increased);
Corrupted - Death Gate (Chance that pop decreases, but Undead units spawn here under control of Sovereign. If pop reaches 0 it turns into ruins and the Sov looses control over the units.)
Maelstrom Shard - Counts as random shard each turn.
The version I would Like (partially based on previous post in this thread):- Essence working like Hit Points : your max value *never* go down- As essence is at the root of the channeler power, maybe it should not be a choice at level up but increase automatically each level (or by another means).- regaining temporary essence might be long (even 1/turn would seems too fast, I think that something like 1/10 turns or less might be appropriate)- regaining temporary essence might need the sovereign to be in a city, or maybe even need a special building that would be the source of his power (unique mage tower or the like).- some "permanent" essence cost can be simulated with a upkeep cost that would decreade both the current and max values until the spell is dispelled. For exemple, if you have currently 15 max essence and cast a city enchantement with an upkeep cost of 2 essence, you will have for all purproses 13 Max essence unless you cancel the enchantement (or lose the city), which would then give your the 2 points back (note that this would only restore the max essence value, the current essence points would still need to be restored by going to a city/essence source). - This could also work for summons : as long as the summon last, your maximum essence is lower. If the summon die (or you unsummon him) your max essence value is restored (but not the temporary, that would need to be restored as normal)- The maximum essence value, modified or not by upkeep costs, migth still be used for spell points if you want, but it might also be based purely on wisdom and/or intelligence.- imbuing heroes with essence would work the same as summoning a unit : you imbue a hero with 5 essence, so your max essence value drop by 5 points, and the hero has a mana pool based on his 5 imbued essence point (modifed by his wisdom as usual).- Shards would still give access to powerful spells *and* a boost to max essence as long as you control them.This would make a fire shard useful to a ice wizard: This wizard would still like more a water shard to cast his more powerful spells, but the essence gain would still be very useful.Possible option: knowing an element spellbook give a bonus to the corresponding shards essence. For exemple, the ice wizard would would get 5 max essence by controlling a fire shard, or 7 with a water shard.- Some basic spells of each elements should be useable without a shard, but still need the corresponding spellbook. If I play a fire wizard, I should at least be able to cast a small firebolt or the like in tactical combat.- Dying would get you to 0 temporary essence, and might have some other *temporary* negative or reversable effect, such as losing a level, or (like in MoM) needing a few turns before your sovereign is available again- For Sauron-like sovereign, you could have essence-costing *personal* enchantments, that could be casted to increase the physical stats but needing upkeep like for city enchantments. This could also apply to imbued champions, who could then use their gifted essence to increase their might instead of casting tactical spells. This could need some magical research to unlock the apporiate units enchantements of course.- Maybe have some cross-tree reaserch path, like some unit type that would need some reasearch from both the magic and warfare path. We already have something like that with magic items, but you could also have some tactical spells working like items : design your unit with a "firebolt spell" like you would equip another with a bow. Of course, your could do the same with a magic fire bow, but flavor-wise it wouldn't be the same.
Removed because Jack said it better than I did.
I like jack's idea alot.
Give us a means to get more essence other than one a lvl and we will be happy.
I think we may also be jumping the gun as they may have just not added the buildings necessary to regen essence or to have a higher pool.
I could see it now Wizard's Tower: adds .05 essence every turn your sovereign is garrisoned in the city it is in. limit one per kingdom, could be a magic research.
(or that could be what he builds when he restores the land)
Restoration Orb (or some other clever title): does the same as the wizard's tower but restores land and only regens essence when your sovereign is stationed on the tile with it.
Death of your sovereign SHOULD make you cry...
Its utterly retarded to think that getting your Sovereign killed (Who represents YOU by the way) should simply result in a minor shrug of the shoulders and a casual Aaah well...
Personally I'd have your essence cut in HALF for Sovereign death so stop your whining on that point. It goes without saying that using your Sov in battle should carry risks as well as the obvious reward of spearheading with your most powerful unit.
A King may participate in a battle but he understands the risks. Don't like it then go hide in your city like a coward... Just don't be surprised if my Assassins don't come a knockin.
Just another idea on essence - there should be a structure unlocked by a high-end Magic-tree tech that can be sacrificed to give some essence to a given unit. That way, a civilization with lots of resources but relatively low military might has a way of gaining additional essence.
@Saije: Under the current system your idea favors a purely NON-caster sovereign... which is fine if all you want to see are built-to-survive Sovereigns.
The main thrust here is that Ess should be a penalty/advantage equally to all build/type of sovereigns. Even under the Beta 3 system, dieing is only important to a Warfare type sovereign if he falls under a minimum threshold, be that 1 or 5. Up until that point the non-caster DOES NOT CARE. Which is pisspoor design.
Making health regeneration rate&max health regen modifiers multiplied by essence in the same manner as discussed for mana regen/max would make essence essential to non-magic tanks and to magical sovs in different ways. (also if it's a multiplier it wouldn't give a massive boost to the low constitution characters nor would it give a mana boost to low wis&int characters)
The entertaining point would be it could multiply you faults as well as your greatest features... you become more "you" and if you're a jack of all trades you eventually grow quite powerful as your essence improves due to only gain benefits from it, specialists however will always have some trade-off... lower health regen and improved mana regen or other trade-offs.
Dr. Frank - I like this idea quite a bit, and think you may be on to something. It also makes intuitive sense to me, and may solve the ESSENCE issue for combat inclined sovereigns.
I'm willing to wait and see how the revised system plays out in Beta 3 however; since in order to accomplish this (based on Froggie's latest description of what magic will look like in Beta 3), the following changes would need to be made:
I also think that adding more than 1 ESSENCE ought to be possible during level-up; and that saving from death/defeat should still cost a player an ESSENCE point.
Funny how ideas come around with time, isn't it?
https://forums.elementalgame.com/376886
Winni
On a different note, I'd like to suggest that maybe you tie your essence recovery rate to the number of nodes you own. I was going to suggest that nodes lose their "color" completely, so that whatever books you choose during sovereign creation define your spellbook, and any node can let you cast from that book (ie, fireball takes 2 nodes to cast, maybe summonings take 3 nodes, etc). I'm not sure I like that idea, however, it goes dangerously close to AOW:SM mechanics where nodes just got you mana recovery rate only. That mechanic had nodes of a color other than your chosen type only giving half the mana they would otherwise (eg, an air node only gave 10 mana to a fire based caster, but a fire node gave 20).
I think that idea has merit Winni. Brad has already said that nodes will affect max essence in beta 3...I'll see how it all feels before making any further determinations on what might work better.
Just to put my two cents in, I think the simplest solution is best.
Wisdom = mana. Problem solved.
Think about the implications:
-Now the currently-useless wisdom stat has a unique and essential purpose separate from int and essence.
-Now all champions have mana based on wisdom, allowing 'normal' spells (ones that cost mana only) to be useable by many units, while 'epic' spells (consume essence) are still reserved for the sovereign.
-Essence is otherwise unchanged, which I think this is a good thing. It's a unique mechanic very different from the normal casters in every other RPG, it allows for some awesome game-changing spells that are balanced by using up this precious, limited resource. The only problem with essence is that it's tied to your mana and thus your ability to cast normal spells at the same time. This makes the most powerful spellcasters ironically unwilling to use their best spells, because losing maximum mana gimps all their other spells, remove the connection between essence and mana and essence is instantly fixed.
-Imbue champion, creation of fertile land, volanoes, etc - any powerful essence using spell you can come up with, they're all now interesting and viable ways to expend your essence as long as you don't lose mana by doing so.
I've had a change of heart about how essence works.. why not make this the maximum mana you can use in any given combat, while wisdom provides mana and mana regen? This way you could have a sovereign with 5 essence, able to cast 2 firebolts per combat, but a wisdom of 15, allowing multiple castings of this each new turn. This is sort of the way master of magic worked with 'skill level' and 'mana' except it's more custom tailored to the unit in combat.
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