Elemental will be released on August 24th. Our “gold” date is August 4th. Our goal is to have the "game” basically done by July 16th. The remaining time will be spent polishing, balancing, tweaking and adding player suggested feedback. We’ll categorize that feedback on things that we think are fun or interesting enough to get into the “gold” version (the version that comes in the box) and then things we’ll make available on release date (the August 24th edition).
What makes a game different from a piece of software is of course, the fun factor. So when I talk about things being “done” I am speaking of the software program known as Elemental. But that doesn’t make it a game. That just makes it a piece of software capable of performing the features of the game. Turning it into a game requires a lot of balancing, usability tweaking, polish and the injection of fun.
Our beta programs have focused largely on deciding what features and directions we need to take on the software so that the final game will be “fun”.
Of course, beta testers, particularly ones who haven’t been involved in Stardock betas previously, are stuck in the situation of not knowing whether we “realize” the areas of the software that need to be changed in order to make it a “good game”. So this post is a partial tour of just some of the big issues that have to be addressed for the software to be a good game.
Below are some of the things on our list:
ITEM #1: Making the sovereigns distinct from one another
Making it so that each sovereign is very distinct in how they play is very important. The way we are going to do this is to make the Professions available and the Talents have far reaching (i.e. not simply “stat boosts”) effects. Thus far, we’ve struggled over which professions to have in the first place.
For instance, the Warlord starts the player off with 2 sentinels. But right now, the Bard only starts you with a stat boost to hero cost. Boring. The Adventurer gives you an extra move. A okay start but still boooring. This will be an area that we will be spending time on after the public beta endsd.
ITEM #2: Making the factions distinct
In a nutshell, The Kingdoms and The Empires are fighting over how the world should be organized. The Kingdoms are (by default) all races of MEN. The Empires are mostly Races of FALLEN. The Fallen are made up of many distinct races.
However, we must make sure each of these races plays differently enough and looks different enough that it is meaningful. This is an area we’re going to spend a lot of time on.
ITEM #3: Usability
There are all kinds of annoying UI issues that get in the way or make the game less intuitive than it should be.
For instance…
Clicking outside the book should close it. There’s a ton of stuff like that. Beta 2-B users will get to see a LOT more stuff that is extremely annoying such as the way spells are managed in beta 2-B. The spell management will get overhauled during the public beta. It’s incredibly obnoxious.
ITEM #4: The Environment is Boring
Based on the plot, the world is decimated. Thus, the lands are barren. However, we are finding this to be oppressive.
Instead, what we are going to be moving towards is a system where the land is spotted with bits of grassland and Fallen land that players can build on without having to sacrifice essence.
In addition, building cities is going to require a Pioneer pack. The player will start with one and it is consumed on building a city. Additional cities will require building pioneers (who can only build on non-forsaken ground) or champions can buy pioneer packs in the shops (giving another early benefit to recruited NPCs).
This makes city building require a little more thought than presently and allows us to address the issue of why can only sovereigns found cities?
Moreover, the art and development teams are both working on a significant increase in the number of environments for the world (we haven’t enabled rivers in the public builds yet because they are cosmetically ugly still). The goal is to make sure the world is an interesting and exciting place.
ITEM #5 DETAILS AND EQUIPPING
In the public beta, the details and equipment screens are combined into a single horrible, usability nightmare.
“The best shareware game UI of 1997!”
During the polish phase, the equipping screen and the details screen will be different (you’ll be able to easily switch between them). This way, equipping units will be straight forward and efficient and the history of the unit and their details can be more easily handled. Plus, it’ll be a lot more intuitive to play.
ITEM #6: Battle Animations and effects
In the beta, all the battle stuff is really basic and dull. During the polish phase, we’ll be adding many many different combat animations, effects, etc. to make battles a lot more interesting.
ITEM #7: NOTIFICATIONS AND UI
This is going to be a big issue in Beta 2-B now that magic is enabled. Players can lose a lot of time because they filled up their spell points inventory and weren’t prompted to do anything about it.
ITEM #8: WHAT IS GOING ON?
This covers a whole lot of areas of the game. But basically there’s a huge lack of UI-driven explanation of what is happening or why something is the way it is. This is an area we will be concentrating a great deal on during the polish phase.
ITEMS #9: COSTS AND BENEFITS ARE CRAZY
How much an item should cost or how tough a monster should be or how hard a certain tech should be to get and so on, these are things that we are aware of and will be focusing a great deal on. Right now, a lot of the values in the “software” were put in by programmers. During the polish stage, the designers (myself included) get to take a crack at it.
Beta 2-A, for instance, changed the game from Beta 2 quite a bit by simply allowing a designer (me in this case) an afternoon to tweak the values.
ITEM #10: TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH UI
The research mechanism is so crummy that it deserves its own item. It’s something we’re very aware of and it’s on our list. I did ask it to be improved some during the public beta phase so that beta testers could at least have a decent idea of what’s going on.
Look at all these screens that tell you nothing about what you picked. HORRIBLE.
ITEM #11: QUESTS
The quests in the game will get better and better during the polish portion.
ITEM #12: Other Player interaction
The AI players still don’t do much. Without the challenge of other players, the game loses much of its potency in the beta. With the Imperial factions disabled, you only have 5 default players and we haven’t enabled creation your own factions yet the worlds tend to be relatively devoid of action.
ITEM #13: Diplomacy
Diplomacy is going to be a major element in the game. It shows up in Beta 3 but it’ll be pretty basic since the AI isn’t particularly intelligent yet.
ITEM #14: NPC and MONSTER AI
The monsters and NPCs just kind of randomly move around right now. This is an area we are going to be heavily polishing to make them be a lot more “alive” than they currently are.
The team has hooked in the ability for me to have these creatures (at least the sentient ones) pop up conversations with the players. This is something that we can have a lot of fun with.
We very much welcome constructive feedback from players. We can’t promise that every idea will make it into the retail gold or even the day 0 release but if we like it, we can put it on our post-release update schedule. So definitely keep posting your ideas or suggestions.
Not a long and complete post as it should be but I'm quite bad at multitasking and I'm "distracted" so...
A Warlord leads troops, not just "get two extra troops". Troops under his command could be more effective, he could make them recover morale temporarily during combat or even take control back from a broken unit.
A Bard isn't just "Oh, hey! Wanna join me offering me a discount because I have Charisma 15?". As an charismatic individual, he has an easier time with dealing with people, be it recruiting heroes, dealing with Sovereigns... A city where the Bard is could have a temporal boost to Prestige, troops in the same aremy could have a boost to morale... Any Bard is supposed to get information from here and there trough his travels, which could mean some random little boosts to research from time to time (as long as the Bard travels, maybe).
In the end, their professions should involve a series of "mini-skills" that reflect that profession.
That there is more living land helps to explain that there are more survivors here and there... But at the same time, oppresive is fine. How can you get the feeling of a dying world in desperate need of "Wolrd-saving-Sovereigns" if you add too many "happy things"? I suppose it's a matter of perception and of making it "fun".
The pioneer and city building thing... sounds fine. I mean, it makes more sense that forcing the Sovereign to create all the cities (unless you use that idea I commeted once about the need of the Sovereign because of some kind of sacred stone or similar in the city, which would also explain city creep). I hope it works.
I have concluded that the biggest problem with Elemental UI is the use of parchments as background. It seems difficult to match elements into such background. Some of the screens seem fine but others, like the equipment one, don't.
Forgive these for being bad (not just the Photoshop, which is bad and unfinished) but to give some extra ideas:
Brad's pretty used to it. Once he sees people posting "game won't make date" he just starts ignoring all their posts and focusing on people with useful feedback.
Apparently one can't voice their concern regarding the intended release date and profer useful feedback at the same time.
I've been putting a lot of work into this beta. At least I know where I stand now.
That's understandable, But, what if someone does BOTH in the same post? If they have a Good Idea will it be ignored because the post started off with criticism?
Honestly, it kind of makes me Not Want to put out some of the good ideas I have for fear that I may criticize something too soon and be ignored there-after.
Problem i see with having a hard final "we are done changing things" date, is playing the beta there needs to be more than changes with just polishing the game. Ill be surprised when you release the tactical combat in beta 3a if people will be like "ok this is 100% awesome and fun". Pretty sure people will provide great feedback to make the combat better, and yes i know you cant do everything. But sometimes you get that one comment that will make things way better and only take a few days to implement it.
not to mention when you "polish" you can polish things in the wrong direction still.
Im hoping for a final full release Beta and try every aspect of the game out at one time to get a full feel of the game before calling the beta over. And not because i want to play the full game, but to make sure V1.0 will be something worth playing.
I don't think criticism of game concepts will result in your post being ignored, I think trying to tell them how to run their business will.
Indeed, well said. That's Exactly why I've often asked the question (and have mostly been ignored Every Time) when I ask "How Close will our Final Beta Version be to the Release Day Version of the Game?". They probably haven't answered that though because they honestly don't know yet.
Still, In the last year and a half I've personally sent Frogboy well over 12 PM's (private messages) here on the forums. You know how many he's even opened? 1, and that was because he was sending me the info I needed to get in on the "Pen & Paper" game of Elemental we tried to play. He often talks about his answers to questions people send him and things they say to him...I'd like to know Where Exactly these people are sending their questions that he's actually sitting down and reading and responding to. Granted, I Completely Understand he's a busy guy. He's the CEO of a multi-national distributor of Games and PC Software. On top of all his work responsibilities he has a Family and a Home Life too. I Don't Expect him to have time to open every PM or message he gets, let alone have the time to answer it as well. I'm sure he's flooded with a hundred (if not in the Hundreds) of questions a day. A little "virtual face time" with the Chief might be nice though.
When you compare Stardock Forums go-ers to other companies forum go-ers though, we get TONS of "Virtual face time" with the Boss. Frogboy does a GREAT job at keeping us informed and interacting with the community when you compare him to other CEO's and Game Dev's. On a scale of 1-10 on "community interaction" I'd rate it like this...
Frogboy = +10
Every other game Dev on Earth = -5 , except for this one Dev over on the "Matrix Games" forums who is really good at keeping in touch with his player-base.
Winter: I really like those ideas! I'm going to think about them more.
To others: I don't think people realize how little time it takes to change game rules. All the gameplay changes between beta 2 and beta 2A was done by tweaking some XML, by me, during a weekend afternoon.
For example, see Winter's screenshots? I could (or a modder could) implement that in probably less than 3 hours (double it to make it "pretty").
For your own edification, go download DesktopX (http://www.desktopx.net) and load up the .dxpacks in the screens directory.
I could make a Warlords clone with Elemental in a weekend. That's why it's taken us 3 years to make Elemental in the first place or more specifically, it took us 3 years to make Kumquat (the engine).
Know what I'm doing today? Going through the forums and writing down ideas that are interesting, putting in the game, playing them for a bit to see if they're fun and if they are, keep them, and if they're not I just take them out. No compiling or anything here.
Want food local? XML. Want to have a reputation system? XML. Want NPCs to have abilities? XML (plus some changes to the .dxpacks -- DesktopX -- to display it to the player).
Now, that doesn't mean the final game will be something everyone loves. There are plenty of people who hate Galactic Civilizations, Sins, etc. But the final game will definitely be something we like.
And I have no shame about borrowing ideas I read about.
Most important quality in a game designer, right next to creativity.
How in the world will they finish/polish this thing in two weeks? I can't see that happening. But maybe the Beta build is really far behind the internal builds Stardock is working on? Maybe we're a couple of months behind what they are testing?
Just worry about testing stuff. Don't worry about their schedule. If things aren't good in a few weeks, express those concerns. But I agree with the Dev Team that posting concerns about the beta schedule does nobody any good. Let them knows of the problems you see with the beta and they'll decide how to go about things.
What you guys have done is really amazing... You are delivering not "1" (ONE) game, you are giving us the tools to make our own worlds and even our own games.
I'm waiting anxiously for the modders manual (I don't know .xml and python yet, but I plan on learning as soon as I have time to do so...)
My only wish about elemental is to have at some point after release some kind of creature editor or something like that...
I know that I don't post much. But I'd like to say that I'm truly happy with this game and would like to add the fact that I've never seen a company like Stardock before. The care with the customers, the wish to do it right, you guys really are making this game with love, and be sure, it will be loved.
About the Hud, I liked wintersong idea too, but I really think that we could have a "book" similar to the Spell Research Screen, to choose spells from, it would be easier to locate spells, it could facilitate things with "book-markers" (don't know if the name is right, I'm talking about that things to keep a book on a specific page), like in HoMM where we have the options to choose from School or even from Strategic/Tactical spells. I think it would be better organized and more intuitive this way, but this is only my opinion.
The creatures are very good, the models, the variety, I think the world is coming alive finally (oh I know there's much to do yet)
The idea of pioneer packs to build citys is really a lot better than spend essence to do so. During my testing of 2B today I could see how the game have evolved since I got into Beta 1Z1. But I have to ask: "Brad, you really love spiders don't you?"
*cough* Does this mean modders could do crazy stuff like implementing the 'detail-heavy' camp of resource management, where you had iron producing cities shipping iron to your metal makers to pound it into swords etc etc?
Mwa ha ha! I love it! (I probably wouldn't play said mod unless the 'under the hood' AI was good, but I bet you others will find great ways to USE those tools)
To everyone worried about the release date (and it certainly does seem very soon) I'd say this: Has any of Stardock's games seemed unfinished when you got them upon release? Ever? If not, then have faith that they won't release this product unfinished either.
If they believe they have a good shot of hitting the time line he posted here, then I trust them. I might not see how it'll happen, but then again I'm an engineer, not a video game designer with a history of good products deserving of fans' trust.
Until they announce gold or a delay I'll just continue playing the betas and providing the feedback they ask for comfortable in the knowledge that if it needs to be delayed, it will be and if only it's ready, will we have a finished product in August.
Just my two cents on the whole thing..
edit, reworking
This is a great point. Of course, my solution wouldn't be to remove the layer, rather, to make the stats do many things. I also like synergy between stats and abilities, and further between abilities and abilities (see Ultima Online for details).
Certainly, if it is a 1-1 map between 1 stat and one ability, it is silly to make 2 layers. I love complexity, but never for the sake of complexity alone.
...I can't seem to get post editing working here, so to add to post 117:
I noticed that the Int stat is woven in via formula into magic spells... perhaps this approach could be use for the other stats. Of course that would require e.g. combat move abilities to plug Str in to; Con could be used formulaicly in elemental resistance, etc.
I particularly like abilities that have related formulas using more than 1 stat (see Fallout 1-2 for details).
Quoting messed up, sorry, redone. I meant to post this yesterday btw. Sorry about the spacing change at the bottom too.
Making it so that each sovereign is very distinct in how they play is very important. The way we are going to do this is to make the Professions available and the Talents have far reaching (i.e. not simply "stat boosts") effects. Thus far, we’ve struggled over which professions to have in the first place.
For instance, the Warlord starts the player off with 2 sentinels. But right now, the Bard only starts you with a stat boost to hero cost. Boring. The Adventurer gives you an extra move. A okay start but still boooring. This will be an area that we will be spending time on after the public beta ends.
The Important Thing to me here is that Our Created Sovereigns can be made to be Just As Distinctive as the ones that are being included with the game. That's Very Important. To solve this it means that skills and abilities should be meaningful and have meaningful uses in game, which you seem to have a pretty good handle on so I'll let you go to it. Just keep in mind us Modders want Our Own Created Sovereigns to be Just As Distinctive if we put the same effort into our work that you put into making your Sovereigns Distinctive.
See my Reply to ITEM #1 above. We Modders also need the ability to make Our Created Races "distinct". Of course this all comes down to how much work we modders put into our creations.
This is a relatively "easy fix". Fire up your copy of Gal Civ 2 and play it for a few hours. Then fire up your internal build of Elemental and play it for a few hours. Then while you're playing Elemental ask yourself "What kinds of functionality are missing here that were in Gal Civ 2?" ....then add that functionality/playability and improve upon it where you can. Problem solved...more or less
Note: No, I do Not Mean by adding space-ships into Elemental...duh
Seems like you got this under control to me.
Be careful here or people will start whining "oh, it's too much micromanagement....whaaaaa". DON'T dumb this down please....thank you.
Can we get a animation of units Mounted on Dragons please? We'd love that, really.
Don't let it get turned into Spam/Clutter and it should be good to go. I'd rather not have lines of crap going down both sides of the screen and blocking my view of the game world. Make sure we can turn some of these Off Entirely if we want. Giving the player the options necessary to customize their "UI experience" is Key.
It's all in the Details and Lore and the players ability to move screens and filter the info given to them. Ties closely into ITEM #7 .
How much an item should cost or how tough a monster should be or how hard a certain tech should be to get and so on, these are things that we are aware of and will be focusing a great deal on. Right now, a lot of the values in the "software" were put in by programmers. During the polish stage, the designers (myself included) get to take a crack at it.
I'd REALLY LIKE to have a SERIOUS AMOUNT of INPUT Here. This IS the "Meat and Potatoes" of the Game. This is where your (Stardock's) "Vision" of What Elemental should be Will SHINE. If this part of the game isn't fun and well balanced, Elemental will flop because of Bad Reviews and Word of Mouth. I'd hate to see all the hard work that's been done on the editing tools go down the drain because the vanilla game sucks. These Are NOT just little "Fluff" details. This IS game-play, which as a designer your-self I'm sure you are well aware of. If it's At All Possible, you should make this part of the beta as Long As Possible so that we here on the forums can have as much time to talk about it and debate it as we can get. Please don't blow this off as something you can patch/fix later thanks to Impulse. If this isn't done right the First Time then review sites like GameSpot will tank Elemental before it has a chance to take off. (then again you probably bribed them pretty good already J/K )
Looks like you got this one handled already too, good work.
Excellent. So far the quests have been pretty basic. I'd like to see one where I have to retrieve an item from somewhere, but whenever I get to that "somewhere" my party actually enters a dungeon I.E. the map changes to the map inside the dungeon, and I can control them and move them around just like I can on the world map.
Whip it, Whip it Good
When it comes to Diplomacy, in Sand-Box mode at least, I'd like to see the Diplomacy AI make smart decisions based on what's Actually Going On In The World rather then a Pre-Defined, Story Driven, Scripted Hatred of each other just because one of them is "Good" and one of them is "Evil". If the "Evil" guy has enough power to wipe out the "Good" player, then that "Good" player would either being doing everything they could to stop the "Evil" player, OR, the "Good" player would be kissing the "Evil" player's arse so he didn't destroy them. That should work both ways and not be pre-determined because of a storyline (in Sand-Box Mode).
The monsters and NPCs just kind of randomly move around right now. This is an area we are going to be heavily polishing to make them be a lot more "alive" than they currently are.
Very cool. Also for some creatures it might be easier to pre-define some "behavioral parameters" such as some things like to live in swamps, while others like to live in deserts, etc etc. Think about the monsters in the game "Monster Hunter" and you'll understand what I mean.
BETA TESTER IMPACT
So basically, for right now at least, we Beta Testers should bend over and prepare to be Impacted at regular intervals? LOL..I'm Kidding, that was a joke.
I think we all understand there is only so much you can do in so short a time. On top of that we all know and trust that you'll be expanding on Elemental for many more years to come. Once the books take off (which they will) Elemental's popularity will be known far and wide and if the books are insanely popular (think LotR or Dragonlance) you'll see a player-base explosion for Elemental the likes of which have only been seen in MMO's like WoW. I like what I've read from the book so far and think you've got a great talent for writing. You should at least be prepared for the possibility of this being Insanely Huge and what it would mean for the Game of Elemental.
Would it help if I re-organized the "Elemental Ideas" Comprehensive List post to make it easier for you guys to see more specific ideas at a glance? It's a lot of work but I don't mind so long as it helps stream-line things for you guys internally.
Quoting"GW Swicord" : The date doesn't terrify me so much as vex me sorely. It seems oddly hasty given the very generous beta time allowed for earlier phases of the process. I understand that the engine has been the bulk of the dev work, but I don't understand why we must suddenly shift to fire-drill mode just when we're finally starting to see the full game and have a chance to really shake down the draft UI.
Leaving fine-tuning and 'balance' stuff to patches seems perfectly reasonable. But I'm bewildered by the fact that we've been testing for almost a year but we'll apparently have just a couple of weeks to try out the magic mechanics. Seems like you're limiting this final phase a beta input to folks who are able to pour in many hours on short notice, which will likely leave many folks with families, jobs, etc., unable to really participate.
Also, the lack of time with larger maps is especially vexing because those are where some of the UI weaknesses of GC2 show clearly.
I'm of "two minds" on this. On one hand, I completely Agree with GW Swicord. I would like to have the amount of time with the upcoming stages of the beta as we've had with the later stages of the beta. I was actually very glad the early steps were being taken so slow and we had as much time as we did. Even knowing all the last minute changes that goes into these things and knowing what to expect when it came down to "crunch time" as it is now, I was assuming we'd be launching 6 months from now in the later "Window" rather then the new one. I would love nothing more then to have 3 weeks of input on everything from "minor balance issues" to "tactical battles" to etc etc. For me (and many of us I assume) this is the "Meat and Potatoes" of the game. These things are where Stardock's Vision and the players Heart and Soul are located. In the Game-Play...In the Details. I'd like to have a Lot more input there...
But, my other "frame of mind" tells me....
What Frogboy says is right and has been from the start. %90-%95 of the work is all building the Engine and Assets. On an internal level things can be done just as fast, if not faster, than the time-tables Brad has given us for these last stages of the Beta. I've seen it first hand working for Microsoft Games on "Mech Commander 1&2". On MC1 especially, we followed as many of the already pre-defined "Mech Warrior" rule sets as we could. We didn't need to know how much damage each weapon did and how much heat it produced because it was already laid out for us from the other "Mech Warrior" games. From the time we finished the engine to the time we went "Gold" (I.E. First Printing) was less then a week...that's right...LESS then ONE WEEK. In many corporate environments things like actual "game-design" are already decided upon or are known and done by a very small group of people internally in a very short period of time. Sometimes All of the actual "game" part of a program is decided upon before the Engine to run it on is even finished.
Quoting "Rath3130" : Brad stated earlier that the areas of the game now that are left unfinished are not nearly as time consuming as the earlier (and completed) stages of the game. Which leaves the fluff work and adjusting of known variables. Considering the size of his team and probable work hours per week, I have full confidence that if Brad says its close to gold, then it is just that. This isn't EA , these guys wouldn't say it was ready if it really wasn't.
That's true, But, ANY Company (though we know Stardock Would Not do this) that has a Digital Distribution System is Fully Capable of putting out a "Sh!t Sandwich" game to make their "Gold" date and then Release a "Day-1" or "0-Day" Patch to make game-play Fun and/or fix problems.
In my eyes, ANY company that needs to put out a Patch on the First Day of Release to make a game "Fun" seriously F'Ked up somewhere along the lines of designing the game and they shouldn't have released the product to being with. If that were to happen in a company I owned someone would be getting FIRED...
<snip>
Dear god... Could you not post that since yesterday because you're hands were cramping so badly from writing it that you could work the keyboard and mouse???
Now to go back and read it and post a worthwhile response instead of just being a smartass...
lol yeah, quoting the very end, when in the sentence above it I state how "We all know Stardock Would Not Do that" makes it look bad
We all know Stardock wouldn't do something like that.
It's so long because I quoted what Frogboy and others were saying...and since quoting was broken when I tried it, I just reformatted the spacing with lines.
I know. Just busting your chops.
Concerning the UI, I really like the scroll backgrounds. It is the rest of the content of these scrolls that does not match - the metallic buttons, icons that don't look like drawings on a scroll and the different color frames with textureless backgrounds inside the scrolls. All of the scrolls could get rid of the frames and have some faint picture on the background. The buttons of the scrolls could look like seals so there could be a slight 3d button effect as well without looking out of place. If it is a scroll, make it look like one.
There's little comparison between that quote and your 'explanation'.
I've posted that I don't see how the game will be sufficiently polished by the anticipated date. So, all my posts from then on are ignored.
Good luck with the game, and I hope I'm wrong about the game being sufficiently polished.
Nick out.
Yes YES YEEES!
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