Elemental will be released on August 24th. Our “gold” date is August 4th. Our goal is to have the "game” basically done by July 16th. The remaining time will be spent polishing, balancing, tweaking and adding player suggested feedback. We’ll categorize that feedback on things that we think are fun or interesting enough to get into the “gold” version (the version that comes in the box) and then things we’ll make available on release date (the August 24th edition).
What makes a game different from a piece of software is of course, the fun factor. So when I talk about things being “done” I am speaking of the software program known as Elemental. But that doesn’t make it a game. That just makes it a piece of software capable of performing the features of the game. Turning it into a game requires a lot of balancing, usability tweaking, polish and the injection of fun.
Our beta programs have focused largely on deciding what features and directions we need to take on the software so that the final game will be “fun”.
Of course, beta testers, particularly ones who haven’t been involved in Stardock betas previously, are stuck in the situation of not knowing whether we “realize” the areas of the software that need to be changed in order to make it a “good game”. So this post is a partial tour of just some of the big issues that have to be addressed for the software to be a good game.
Below are some of the things on our list:
ITEM #1: Making the sovereigns distinct from one another
Making it so that each sovereign is very distinct in how they play is very important. The way we are going to do this is to make the Professions available and the Talents have far reaching (i.e. not simply “stat boosts”) effects. Thus far, we’ve struggled over which professions to have in the first place.
For instance, the Warlord starts the player off with 2 sentinels. But right now, the Bard only starts you with a stat boost to hero cost. Boring. The Adventurer gives you an extra move. A okay start but still boooring. This will be an area that we will be spending time on after the public beta endsd.
ITEM #2: Making the factions distinct
In a nutshell, The Kingdoms and The Empires are fighting over how the world should be organized. The Kingdoms are (by default) all races of MEN. The Empires are mostly Races of FALLEN. The Fallen are made up of many distinct races.
However, we must make sure each of these races plays differently enough and looks different enough that it is meaningful. This is an area we’re going to spend a lot of time on.
ITEM #3: Usability
There are all kinds of annoying UI issues that get in the way or make the game less intuitive than it should be.
For instance…
Clicking outside the book should close it. There’s a ton of stuff like that. Beta 2-B users will get to see a LOT more stuff that is extremely annoying such as the way spells are managed in beta 2-B. The spell management will get overhauled during the public beta. It’s incredibly obnoxious.
ITEM #4: The Environment is Boring
Based on the plot, the world is decimated. Thus, the lands are barren. However, we are finding this to be oppressive.
Instead, what we are going to be moving towards is a system where the land is spotted with bits of grassland and Fallen land that players can build on without having to sacrifice essence.
In addition, building cities is going to require a Pioneer pack. The player will start with one and it is consumed on building a city. Additional cities will require building pioneers (who can only build on non-forsaken ground) or champions can buy pioneer packs in the shops (giving another early benefit to recruited NPCs).
This makes city building require a little more thought than presently and allows us to address the issue of why can only sovereigns found cities?
Moreover, the art and development teams are both working on a significant increase in the number of environments for the world (we haven’t enabled rivers in the public builds yet because they are cosmetically ugly still). The goal is to make sure the world is an interesting and exciting place.
ITEM #5 DETAILS AND EQUIPPING
In the public beta, the details and equipment screens are combined into a single horrible, usability nightmare.
“The best shareware game UI of 1997!”
During the polish phase, the equipping screen and the details screen will be different (you’ll be able to easily switch between them). This way, equipping units will be straight forward and efficient and the history of the unit and their details can be more easily handled. Plus, it’ll be a lot more intuitive to play.
ITEM #6: Battle Animations and effects
In the beta, all the battle stuff is really basic and dull. During the polish phase, we’ll be adding many many different combat animations, effects, etc. to make battles a lot more interesting.
ITEM #7: NOTIFICATIONS AND UI
This is going to be a big issue in Beta 2-B now that magic is enabled. Players can lose a lot of time because they filled up their spell points inventory and weren’t prompted to do anything about it.
ITEM #8: WHAT IS GOING ON?
This covers a whole lot of areas of the game. But basically there’s a huge lack of UI-driven explanation of what is happening or why something is the way it is. This is an area we will be concentrating a great deal on during the polish phase.
ITEMS #9: COSTS AND BENEFITS ARE CRAZY
How much an item should cost or how tough a monster should be or how hard a certain tech should be to get and so on, these are things that we are aware of and will be focusing a great deal on. Right now, a lot of the values in the “software” were put in by programmers. During the polish stage, the designers (myself included) get to take a crack at it.
Beta 2-A, for instance, changed the game from Beta 2 quite a bit by simply allowing a designer (me in this case) an afternoon to tweak the values.
ITEM #10: TECHNOLOGY RESEARCH UI
The research mechanism is so crummy that it deserves its own item. It’s something we’re very aware of and it’s on our list. I did ask it to be improved some during the public beta phase so that beta testers could at least have a decent idea of what’s going on.
Look at all these screens that tell you nothing about what you picked. HORRIBLE.
ITEM #11: QUESTS
The quests in the game will get better and better during the polish portion.
ITEM #12: Other Player interaction
The AI players still don’t do much. Without the challenge of other players, the game loses much of its potency in the beta. With the Imperial factions disabled, you only have 5 default players and we haven’t enabled creation your own factions yet the worlds tend to be relatively devoid of action.
ITEM #13: Diplomacy
Diplomacy is going to be a major element in the game. It shows up in Beta 3 but it’ll be pretty basic since the AI isn’t particularly intelligent yet.
ITEM #14: NPC and MONSTER AI
The monsters and NPCs just kind of randomly move around right now. This is an area we are going to be heavily polishing to make them be a lot more “alive” than they currently are.
The team has hooked in the ability for me to have these creatures (at least the sentient ones) pop up conversations with the players. This is something that we can have a lot of fun with.
We very much welcome constructive feedback from players. We can’t promise that every idea will make it into the retail gold or even the day 0 release but if we like it, we can put it on our post-release update schedule. So definitely keep posting your ideas or suggestions.
Thank you for posting this, Frogboy.
As a beta tester it is nice to see feedback on areas that will be focused on in the future so that any game suggestions made in these areas we know aren't being ignored, you're just not looking at that right now. If you do what's on that list I can see this being the hallmark 4x for a generation
Well, a lot of things changed from exposure in beta 1. Research changed. The economy changed. City building changed. Some of those things changed dramatically.
I find it hard to believe that those things got such drastic changes out of the public process, whereas diplomacy, magic, adenturing, tactical battles, and the modding stuff is all perfectly fine as is and in need of zero real feedback prior to release.
If they prove me wrong, great! That means the game is fun. But I'm not convinced based on what I've seen and how much it was changed along the way that the rest of it is flawless coming out of the gate. IMHO this is going to be one of those things where there is major rebalancing going on in the first month after release, once you get a lot of eyes looking at the whole game assembled and people start realizing that spell X completely dominates everything else and trying to fight against it without using the same spell is impossible.
If The Grande Experiment (exposing the development process, engaging outside testers earlier in development than usual) worked will Stardock follow a similar approach for its future game projects?
The Frog has said next project, beta testers earlier in the process (!)
If you want sovereigns to be more interesting I really think that getting rid of the stats options on the creation page will help.
No Attributes should be visible while making a character. Nothing shuts down the creative process like the urge to min/max. I am a former pen and paper game designer so I know a bit about this.
Just have talents, professions, and skills available. What this does is it encourages the player to come up with a character he wants to play as rather than the character he feels forced to play as because of the way the game rewards or punishes game choices or the way the player perceives the game to reward or punish.
The choice to play as a Mighty and Cunning Warrior with a background as a Mason and an understanding of Life and Earth magics is so much more interesting then Str 14, Int 13, Wis 11, Dex 11, Hit points 12...
Basic entry level equipment should be free. Really cool and rare items could cost but a staff or a leather helmet shouldn't.
Pretty much says the same thing that I stated earlier. The aspects of the game that seem to have you worried because you've not tested them yet, have in fact already been/are being tested internally. I think it is a bit too soon to give a weary sigh and contemplate selling your stock, just based on experiences thus far. While I am sure they look forward to player feedback prior to release on as many aspects of the game as possible, the things that they haven't yet released to the public are the things that are least likely to change in any sort of a breathtaking way. Adjusting static variables is what this soup smells like to me. Stardock says it is nearing ready, well..they haven't lied to me as of yet.
I do think that at least tier 1 equipment should be free... you can get better stuff adventuring anyway. Right now it's sorta funny because you have to give up points in attributes for points in equipment. It wouldn't have to be good at all, a leather jacket and a wooden staff might be all you need (making you a 2 defense, 1 attack). But at least you would be a little better off.
I also think that reducing the amount of points you get when decreasing a stat should be less. Eg. I think that in order to grant 1 more point in Constitution, it should cost 2 points, instead of 3. But if you want to reduce your Charisma, instead of getting 2 points back, you only get 1. So to "break even" you can decrease 2 stats by 1 or 1 stat by two in order to raise another stat by 1. This promotes min-maxing but since raising attribute points is cheaper as well, you might divert talent points into attributes instead of right now where they are so expensive, pulling some of the less useful ones off.
Right now it feels like I'm too buying buying just the most basic equipment and stats to get nice Talents. A wider variety of talents would be best, as well. PAGES OF THEM PLEASE
I like this idea a lot. As a habitual min/max player in any setting possible (I'm an engineer.. it's my nature) I can definitely see the draw in having players formulate their Sovereign based on skills and background instead of numbers, at least in the initial character creation.
And I have no doubt Elemental will be a very cool game. I predict it achieves over 40 megaFonzies.
Perhaps two pools of points, "Characteristic Points" and "Background/Equipment" Points - and then a few traits that let you convert characteristic points into background equipment points and vice-versa? (Say a "Talented" Background and a "Untalented" one?)
Frogboy I understand your enthusiasm and optimism is due to past experience and I respect your experience, and I understand what we see in beta isn't a true measure of the game's progress.
I can't see how you'll pull off having an acceptable level of polish and balance by your intended release date. You've mentioned not needing to rush the game. I can't see how one can determine if it's ready until you have the 'finished' product. Doing so before this time makes it a guessing game and you're rolling the dice.
Leaving fine-tuning and 'balance' stuff to patches seems perfectly reasonable.
Patches and mods are fine to add in the 'superfluous' features (the stuff we 'want' but don't 'need'). For polish (fine-tuning) and balance it's imperative that be in at release. You only get 1 chance to make a first impression. Elemental will have a narrow window to make its mark to the general public. A lack of polish and balance at release will make it very hard to be more than a niche game. Over time some of what's lost can be recouped, but it's best to do it right the first time.
I have more faith in your experience Frogboy than mine in these matters so I have an open mind, and I don't mind being wrong (best way to learn!). I hope this is one such time.
I very strongly disagree with this.
I agree with pigeon & Nick.
Wow, now I get why there aren't resources left to implement hotseat at the moment.
Personally, I hope for an excellent diplomacy engine, with multiple treaties and means of enforcing them ( military assistance, etc. ).
just a question
localization ? ( for example hungarian,polish,czech,slovak,russian,etc. )
lol this is ridicolous
we are in 2010 we should be able to have a carpenter warrior and fit it into a good stats system
i dont want to read a book (in fact i do read books but not just when im playing a videogame) same as i dont want to solve differential equations (and i do that too at times) in a game, but need both aspects to have a good GAME
He's not saying their shouldn't be a stats system, just that they should consider not showing it to the player during character creation. Big difference.
World of Warcraft is just about as stats heavy as a game can get and yet you don't see any of it until you've created your character and entered the game world. At character creation you're presented with the choice of HOW you want to play the game, what your avatar looks like, and some flavor text describing his strengths and weaknesses and then once you're in the game, you dive into the stats (or not, if that's not your thing).
Great post, the Items seem to address the most important things to get right. But I have to agree on above regarding the timing - how can it be that the final game is going to be published in a few weeks when we haven't even had the chance to see any version of e.g. tactical combat, and magic only now? Economy was changed, city building was changed, so what if there are parts of the tactical combat people just hate (but that could still be changed within the current engine and system)... Would be too bad if all these key issues, including the balancing, would be rushed. For finding the balance you need time, to play and to reflect and then to implement and then to verify and tweak again. 25 days for that!?? Maybe it will be possible for SD staff to spend the next weeks in a complete working frenzy and go out with a bang, but for us mortals who have at the same time to be in a working frenzy on our real job unrelated to EWoM it will be more than difficult to say anything inteeligent about it. As has been stated before, what we have seen up to now is more an alpha than a Beta - so almost no real beta for this vibrant community who only wishes to contribute!?
Concerning the details, it still feels like there is much needless complication in them. In Sovereign creation, you assign points into these RPG DnD stats, but you can't even see them in the details. Furthermore, each stat seems to only affect one secondary stat. STR affects attack, DEX defense etc. If the RPG stats only affect one thing surely they are unnecessary. We should be putting points directly into Attack, Defense etc. Please remove any needless layers of pointless stats.
i dont think so
i find unconfortable having to study my char on a site, would be just better to see in game
same with elemental i rather see it there instead of having to open a web page
maybe just put in in a separate window if that bothers you
but why not visualising anything at all? i dont get the advantage
This is exactly what I've been trying to say.
The Sovereigns have to be exceptional individuals from the beginning. They can't have some average spread of DnD stats that are too detailed in a game of this scope anyway.
Feats like "Mighty" do give you an image "Str 15" miserably fails to deliver.
Also the magic specialization in Sovereign creation should go much deeper than picking just one book. You should have the option of creating an Archmage style old Wizard with knowledge of a little bit of everything, or a young menacing Fire specialist with red hair, burning eyes and a good repertoire of Fire spells from start.
So Brad, why the different view from you and the forum dwellers?
Is it because they don't understand how much an organization can accomplish with hundreds of thousands of dollars compared to what they could program on their own?
Is it because they're not the kind of people who "get things done" so they don't understand what is an unnecessary delay?
Is it because this is just one more game out of many to you and you know you don't actually get happier players from putting extra polish into a game with a short lifecycle?
Do you just have different standards for how good something needs to be to put it out in public?
Myself, I side with the forum guys. But I know you can build a church in a day with enough hands, I know one busy person can do more in a week than I would do in two months, so I'm hoping that's what's going on with you and your seeming impossible deadlines.
I've been in WidnowBlinds betas, GalCiv betas (I and II), Sins of a Solar Empire betas, and the Demigod beta.
The only beta I was worried about was the Demigod beta and I posted very loudly about that while others kept calling me a troll saying the game was "done".
The GalCiv I and the Sins betas were the roughest because they were changing massive things right up until the end. Sins of a Solar empire was incredibly boring to play even after the beta ended and many forum users predicted doom for that game.
Elemental so far is looking pretty good from a beta point of view.
Yes, every beta program ends up the same way.
Brad's pretty used to it. Once he sees people posting "game won't make date" he just starts ignoring all their posts and focusing on people with useful feedback.
Like you mentioned, Sins of a Solar Empire was a classic example where the forums were practically a riot by the end of the beta because people said the game was boring and slow and the "economy was broken" and that we should delay the game a year or 6 months or something. Many of us just started to filter out those people because we had been through this so many times.
Non programmers always seem to have completely opposite from reality ideas on what takes a long time and what doesn't. In Sins of a Solar Empire, people were yelling how bring the betas were and that it would take months to make it fun. But changing a few variables in an xml file changes the whole game.
well you have to consider expectations too, there arent many strategy games, its not the same talking about cod X or FF Y, surely fans care about it but "its just another [XYZ]" , ppl annoyed by cod will just play another of the 213421441 clones
me and other strategy players dont really have much choice and i really dont like the idea of playing civilization for the next 5 years
On my side I'm not worried they can't get a functioning game out (and a good one) in this time, it's more a question of whether there will be enough time for the forum to play, comment and have any chance of changes made. While I understand SD can't wait with release just because someone on the forum is out or going on vacation, I just wanted to point out the reality of things from a forum poster's and customer's perspective:
I've been following the discussion on EWoM since before this forum was up, posting on the old galciv forum on the "4x strategy game". That is a few YEARS ago. Then we got the first beta which was more of an alpha, and for almost a year this has continued with new parts given out while others are drawn back again. No chance to see what the game will actually look like and feel like. So now in a week or two there will be a few weeks of trying out the first version of the game, starting at beta 3A (incl tactical battles for first time).
Unfortunately there is a real life outside too, in my case I'm going away for over two weeks mid July with NO internet connection (the HORROR!). Before that: panic to finish off work before summer (much like for SD I guess). It would certainly suck if we only get a few weeks of summer time to make inputs and then the game is out. Some people might not have just those specific two/three weeks available. After YEARS on the forum and an "alpha" of almost a year, for me it does not make sense. Feels just like the rushing we thought would be avoided. Just my personal two cents, but I'm sure I'm not the only one.
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