I like these "standard fantasy races" for the same reason that you don't like them - the fact that they are used in many games makes them something familiar, so I know what to expect from them. When I see something like "Trogs" or "Urxen", these are just meaningless words for me, and it takes some time to get used to them and fully understand what these names mean. The fact that I know Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs etc. for years from playing other games makes me "feel" their role in the game better.

Of course these races are not needed in every fantasy book (lately I'm enjoying Terry Goodkind's Sword of Truth series which doesn't have them), but I think putting them in games is a good idea, because they add diversity to the game and are something that the players can relate to. If you want an original story and setting, read a book. In games, the "standard stuff" is good enough for me.

Ok well that is better. I was under the impression that the Fallen was made up of 'evil' Humans. Sorry for the misconception. I just dislike Fantasy and Sci-fi games and stories that have Humans as the only race. This was my main problem with Firefly. The creator Josh cam out and said he will never have other races which pretty much killed the show for me (I still watched it though, the movie was awsome but the show was a bit boring.)

George RR Martin?

Yerk...

Yeah great series, if he ever bothers to finish it.  Great setting, but it's a bit disingenuous to say it's 'only humans and dragons' when the entire world beyond the wall is full of all manner of beast and fae.  But sure, there are no elves or dwarves or ...  at least no kingdoms of them.

Now 'The Wheel of Time' is more along the lines of what you mean to describe.  There are no 'other races' at all, even Trollocks are not exactly a new race, nor have they played much of a role as anything other than the foot soldiers for the dark one.

Another excellent fantasy author who didn't rely on the usual conventions is Stephen R Donaldson and his 'Chronicles of Thomas Covenant'.  Though there are Giants, but nothing else fits neatly into the usual motifs.

But then again we're not talking about high fantasy works of fiction here (with apologies to your book), we're talking about a TBS game in a fantasy setting.  What is utterly important is to make the game fun to play, the lore is a part of that, but an entirely superficial part of it, as evidenced by the effort to make modding easy to do and share.  Get the mechanics right, get the AI right, the rest really won't matter.

However, the lore in SotS came about (in large part) *after* the game was released, and the core play of the game did not rely whatsoever on the lore, other than some of the scenarios.  Well if you want to link drive techs to 'lore' it did, but meh, I'm not sure I'd go quite that far, because the drive techs didn't have to be broken out as they were due to the lore, other than maybe the Liir.

Now that isn't to say that Arrin didn't already have the lore conceptualized, but her novels and other works came after the game had been out, and it achieved enough success for them (her) to continue to flesh out the back story.

In any case, I'm sure the lore for EWoM will be fine, and it's clear that people will be able to put in whatever 'stock' races they want to eventually, if not immediately anyway.  That's not really the crux of the issue for me though, or wouldn't be if I thought there were an issue here in the first place.

The issue would be, what is driving the game forward, Game Mechanics or Story.  I think most people would prefer (and I think it's the case anyway) that the Game Mechanics be what drives the game, while the Story is just something easily laid over.  As opposed to the other way around, which would be ruinous in my opinion.

I thought/ was fairly certain that each Faction, or at least of the Kingdoms, is founded at a different time Post Cataclysm ... and that in the Sandbox we merely have all the factions starting at the same time.

Had I realized my initial comment would so undermine the actual core of my argument, I would never have made it. I originally thought that it would simply be best to convey my annoyance, in hopes of grabbing someones attention. Now in hindsight my comment seems to have had its intended effect, and caused some serious insult. I apologize, and would like to rephrase it thusly, where now that I have the attention, I can actually convey the issue I have with the lore (and to a much lesser extent, the book)

My primary annoyance is, as many others have noted, that there is a notable lack of true fantasy races. While the game is the developers to make as they please, while buying a fantasy TBS one has certain expectations. This is akin to having a first person shooter with no weapons except SMG's and slightly modified SMG's, while it may work and have a unique "flavor", many of use would like some variation. Saying that you can then "mod" new races in is sort of dismissive in an agitating way. Not only that, but considering simple mods (i.e. from the create a race menu) have only the base races to work with, the potential to mod something in that is a great change from the cannon races (lets say, centaurs) ceases to be.

Should the game developers only want a world with humans and thier extremely-similiar-but-kinda-evil cousins the "fallen (even thier name implies that they came from the same "source" as humans)" that is fine, I won't play the campaign probably anyway. However, what is the harm in looking through a few classic games (disciples, MoM, HoMM, AoW:SM) and grabbing the most "flavorful" races for the sandbox game? At this point the art assets have been wasted already, so it wont happen, but who wouldn't want the chance to conquer a goblin kingdom as the undead? Or maybe build a demon empire using your enslaved dark elves? Whats even more humorous is that homages to ALL those empires exist as fallen, but obviously have been made, well, I guess "blander". It's not as if the lore is original, its as if a bunch of classic fantasy races were merged with humans to create less interesting offspring.

Im only really annoyed by this because I bought the game well before any info on the lore or races came out. That was my mistake, and I still don't want a refund, as I see great potential. I am simply saddened by the fact that everything exists to make the next legendary fantasy TBS, and yet they sidelined that potential for whatever reason.

Oh, and I have no problem with the book really, it just seems to be that the game may be catering to its lore and hence causing these problems. I also stand by "Still have to sigh when I see certain descriptions delayed in the beta because "they are waiting for random house to send them over". Not a good sign." but whatever.

Whoa.. ease up on telling him where to go. And also with the backhanded comment about lack of refreshing gameplay with elves, because of some predisposed opinion on D&D.

I may not agree with his arguments, fully to date. 

And I too will be modding in my own fantasy D&D inspired world, for gameplay. Though I'm just fine experiencing the game as being presented. (Which differs from EndofDayz feeling.)

He's expressing an opinion, that is dear to him. His manner in the previous portions was egregious. But he has since refined his comments, and apologized for them. Though he's still expressing his interest, and position.

The thing is, it's just a matter of resources, and/or modding to create elves, and dwarves, and more. His feeling is that there should be many different art resources and corresponding corollaries of monsters that fit a traditional niche, as inspired by many decades of fiction and materials to date. We get that. I too would like to see a broad variety of monsters, and base models to support a few more alien races, and ones with pointy ears and, some with knee length beards.

My patience will be rewarded in time though as people WILL make those. And then we'll be able to add them to our greater game. Let's just keep on trying to be civil without provocative posturing and positioning.

What everyone else sees as abrasive I simply see as being honest and forthright. I have things to do and don't want to spend several hours crafting the perfect post to dance around the more "pointed" sections of my argument.

Alot of people believe wholeheartedly that modding will solve this issue, and they likely use Civ4's massive and varied community to base thier beliefs off of. However Civ4 wasn't a bland game made great through modding, it was a great game made incredible. I can sit down and play Civ4 vanilla, no expansions even, and have a great time. Compare this to Spore (*shivers*) which has the potential to let players design an entire universe from within the game. Spore failed, incredibly hard, because the gameplay of the base game was so terrible no one gave any interest in modding anthing. Now Elemental's Beta 1 is more fun than spore, but the fact still remains - a modding community will coalesce around a great base game, no matter how difficult it is to mod. A poor base game may not get the traction needed to see it through to its full potential.

Frogboy has already stated that they will likely lose sales because Elemental isn't another generic fanasty world. He also doesn't care; he wants to make his game the way he likes it. He doesn't have stockholders to answer to and is running a very profitable company. He doesn't need to squeeze out every sale.

People who like good strategy/fantasy(regardless of story) games should like Elemental. If people won't buy the game because it doesn't have traditional fantasy races, well that's too bad for them.

Oh, and it doesn't take an hour or more to write a post that doesn't insult peoples work. Calling someones work a money grab is a good way to insult someone. If you can't be tactful in criticism than people aren't going to respect your opinion.

I don't think Elemental will be hard pressed for modders nor have to worry about a DoA community. Stardock has a loyal enough fanbase to ensure at least that. The game itself will also be good enough, imo, to hook players even without traditional fantasy races. I guess it just comes down to the fact I've seen how Stardock develops games in the past and know they will create a fantastic game now. I'm sorry you don't share that optimism. 

What an interesting, if a little angry thread.

As a compulsive world-creator myself I am really excited to see how Elemental's backstory is setting out on its own without using the crutch of 40 years of pretending to be half as talented as Tolkien.  I think it is pretty cool that it doesn't involve orcs, or elves, or humans with different color skins (whoops, nevermind), but any truly fantastical races would have to be so alien as to be unsympathetic to players entirely (anyone want to live like a Modron?)

I find it very odd that no one has brought Alpha Centauri in all of this, a game that is literally Civilization and that had an incredibly strong lore element, an element that nonetheless could be completely ignored (like you can in Elemental) and would still be a fantastic game.  I mean, sure, the 'races' in AC were fairly generic, but the thought and quality of writing behind them made for a compelling narrative even if you began a little hostile to it.

I'd also like to add that I suspect most people with the drive, energy, and ambition to make big games like this are probably writers at heart and just bursting to tell a story.  I for one am willing to wade through any amount of writing if it inspires people to make awesome games.  That and I like anything that is coherently and well written...