No beta this week. Between my trip to San Francisco last week to meet with the media and Memorial Day, the AI isn’t far enough along to be included for a public beta. But if it makes you feel better, we’re playing it a lot internally.
There’s been a ton of questions on the forums so let me go through them here:
Q: What is the release date?
A: August 24th is our official release date.
Q: Is that release date subject to change?
A: Yes. If we’re not happy with the game for some reason.
Q: I think Elemental should have <insert cool wizbang feature>, will you delay the game to put that in?
A: No.
Q: But I thought you said you wouldn’t release the game until it was what you wanted?
A: Yes. But we’re not going to delay the game to put in new features. We’re open to doing lots of things after release.
Q: I’ve heard there are no flying units in the game.
A: There are flying units in the game. However, there aren’t flying armies in the game (i.e. there are creatures and animals that fly, but we do not plan to have flying mounted units in – at least at release. We can discuss with players – after they have the game – what practical means they could envision flying around.
Q: I saw <screen shot X> and I didn’t like <insert aspect of screenshot>
A: Most screenshots floating around are, unfortunately, very old.
Here is a current screenshot:
Note the dynamic fog of war in the east. This is generated using an advanced multi-core algorithm.
Q: I like using my imagination when I play games, I am glad the game has its own lore but can I introduce my own?
A: Yes. In the “sand box” (normal games) mode. You can do whatever you want. It will be in the campaign where our lore takes over.
Q: In a screenshot, the land looked flat.
A: Geography of a given map changes from map to map. Some maps are hilly. There are some maps that are dead. There are some that are pleasant. Some are very mountainous. It just depends what kind of map you get.
Here is a map in an arctic world.
Q: Does the AI in Elemental cheat?
A: Not at its normal levels. I’ve been working very hard to make the game play the game just like a human being does. However, I will have higher difficulty levels where the AI gets “stuff” for those who end up better at the game than I am. We will, however, be continuing to enhance the AI long after release as we did with Galactic Civilizations.
Q: How animated are things in the world?
A: Here’s a link to a video: http://screencast.com/t/YWY5YWJk (it’s a big video so you’ll want to let it buffer).
Q: How much can modders do on the map?
A: Here’s me making my own map. These tools are part of the game btw. They’re designed to let general gamers use (non-technical).
I am not saying you can not do it, you can. And I know your build is much further. But there is still alot of feedback on all the stuff which is not implemented.
However, I know how you care about your games, and I am sure, you will do things right. It just seems to me, that elemental will come all together at the last while. 2,5 month? Does not seems like you are expecting to do any major changes, which is fine with me, because I like the game as it is at the moment, however it does not look like its even enough to do polish, tweaks and balance.
I just want this game shine, I want it to be success and for that, sadly, reviews has to be great. 4x genre is not that much popular and all people on the forum are only fragment of those, which might or might not play.
Most people will give it go on initial reviews and for that, game needs to be polished, fun, interesting, nice to look at and offer something unique and new.
Why I want all that? Because, then there will be huge community, so many stuff from people and a lot of people to play with.
For me healty community is the best reason to stay, chat, play and share ideas and stories. That is what will keep this game alive and interesting for many years to come.
This is probably a stupid question, but what if we were to make a "Army" out of nothing but these particular "Flying Units". That would then "technically" make a "Flying Arny", correct? I.E. a entire army/unit of flying things that can pass over mountains as a group.
I understand it might not actually be practical in game to do so as I have no idea what these "flying units" are as of yet. It's possible though, right? Just curious.
Thanks in advanced
I'm pretty sure sure what Fogboy meant by "army" was trainable units, i.e. you can only get flying units by recruiting them, not training them.
What is everyone's obsession with flying units? I don't want ships, infantry, horsemen, men-horses, angels, devils, wizards, ogres, trolls, golems, or Sovs to fly. Dragons and birds I can live with.
Wouldn't flying be something more suited for the massive expansions we have to look forward to? For that matter they could add burrowing units and a lower and higher field to the map. Just imagine hovering cities overhead and underground lairs full of gooey nasty creatures. These things seem more suited for additions to an already great game.
Believe me, we definitely want to make sure we get this right. When people see beta 2, I think it'll be pretty obvious that we haven't been rushing anything. Actually, it'll be beta 4 when this will be REALLY obvious (when everything is turned on including the editors).
This game is what we've been working on since GalCiv II shipped in early 2006. There's soooo much stuff that's been produced and ready to go.
Some people probably thought we were excessive with insisting on a NINE month beta 1 program but it was important that we nailed the game mechanics for Elemental.
Obviously, some people won't be happy. I hang out on the Starcraft 2 forums (one of the most exquisitely well designed games ever) with people saying "This is broken and not ready to ship" so I expect the same here.
Both GalCiv II and Sins of a Solar Empire were a lot earlier on before this point.
Stop making me want Beta 2 more! First you tell us we won't get it this week, then tell us how awesome it is! How will I wait until next Thursday?
Frogboy, I understand you really care abut the AI, and I respect that. However, it really seems the AI is becoming the long tentpole in Elemental right now. I understand you want to work on it yourself, but if you really want the game to be both complete and have good AI, perhaps you should have another member of the team help you? I just really want this AI to be a top-notch TBS AI, if you understand what I mean.
I have multiple people helping me on the worker functions which is where the bulk of the time goes.
i.e. ulCombatRating = pUnit->EvaluateThreatInArea(x,y,radius);
I used to have to write that stuff.
Heh.
So you do the tough stuff, and have your minions do the grueling stuff?
Well, good luck with the AI. Your values of good AI are a big reason why I support Stardock.
BTW, if you guys want to know the most likely thing to cause delays, it's going to be AI.
Having a challenging AI that doesn't cheat is a lot of work. Especially with islands.
Good luck, and I hope you succeed! I hope you have time to play multi with us though, to make the AI better of course!
The AI isn't any reason to delay beta versions though, I'd rather have a beta with no AI than no beta.
Uhhh Frogboy - Weren't we originally going to have a Beta 2 w/o AI anyway so we can test Multiplayer? Why not pass out a V1 with a note saying "Don't report AI issues, please focus on multiplayer" ? This way we can start getting multiplayer bugs in.
So over the weekend slap together a different AI to write posts for you so you can concentrate on the real AI
(Or did you do that months ago ?)
Ok my concern is about balance. what has been our favorite scream.....
Food and Housing!!!!!
Do you not anticipate the balance issue taking that long to nail down.
Also there are still alot of ideas we are kicking around the forum, the latest being the research point and build start issues which all lead up to the tech tree. Which I know some of us consider needing some serious work.
So my question is I guess are we past the point of major changes to the mechanics and if so should we stop punting around major ideas?
August?! isn't it too rush?
It was only last week that we know the game has been switched from Continuous Based combat to Traditional tile based (TTBC)one. I have no idea when you made the switch, maybe you've keep it a top secret from us even you decided a year ago. But, it does mean we have no involvement (or almost null) to this important part of the game. How much time we have from the next beta (that shows TTBC) to the release date? 1 month? How much feedback will made into the release product? Will there be major change before release if we really hate it, afterall you have get the marketing part rolling already?
During the discussion of TTBC, your inclination to have "Winner Takes All" (WTA) really irks me. It shows what you have in mind is completely different than my expectation. Despite your claim that for PC game that you aim to make it as non-console-y as you can, the WTA concept is definitely inclined to console (or MP), where a battle has to end quick.
I am not saying the game should be prefect before it can be released (like what Blizzard is doing for ages). But I am concerned the gameplay of the beta (& from what we heard in the forum) aren't that satisfactory. At least it is no better than older classics.
The initial release is extremely important, any -ve review from magazines will have significant impact of the number of initial buyer. IMHO, if it is no good when it is released, no matter how many new feature/improvement/editor you put in afterwards, the perception that the game is still no good. So far, I see that the focus of the game is the game engine, not the gameplay. To me, gameplay that excite me when I play the game unmodded is absolutely important. There won't be time to really test the AI, to test unit balance, just no time whether you do it internally or via a public beta.
Anyway, you can ignore me. I maybe the few TBS fanatic that have played TBS games for 20+ years, not the kind of audience you targeted for. I always want Stardock a huge success. Back in the days when I played galactic civilization, I was so happy. I truely want it to be the same when I unwarp EWOM.
I find your comments ill conceived and numbly rash.
Let's give it a week or two before we say anything about gameplay or what it is geared for.
You haven't even seen the campaign.
Can't wait for Beta 2!
Looks great!
Indeed, I understand that. I just wanted to try to clarify it further. Maybe it's hard coded that "flying" units alone can't band together in a "army"? There could be some specific reason aside from the obvious "walking units can't go where flying units can" which everyone would think of. That's why I was specific in the question.
You know you guys at stardock work in a totally different manner than i expect from a gaming company. Your public relations are personable and caring and the games you make are outstanding beyond any review you can get.
As someone said earlier in this thread i would hope that this game gets outstanding reviews and have a great community with active conversations, mapping and modding for years to come but i dissagree on one point. I dont think you will need excelent hype and reviews to make this game great. Sins of a solar empire only got an average ranking of 8.8 from gameranking but it is by far my most played game to date outside of League of Legends. More than reviews games get spread amongst forums and friends due to their balance and multiplayer merit rather than actual reviews and rankings. I mean MW 2 lost IW alot of money even with great reviews.
What im trying to express is a big thankyou from your average mapper/modder lover for the way you guys approach your gamers and your games. Youve earnt a preoder from me today for this game and i expect great things from it, regardless of what reviews say.
AI was good in SoaSE but the real challenge comes from multiplayer where theres no resource cheating. But then i saw that your working on a bigger and better form of ai and giving us the ability to change the way it works .. i am drooling in anticipation for the beta 2 right now
I think Elemental has already succeeded and it has not even been released, the fact that gamers have been involved and welcomed to participate in the development and ideas etc, with out forcing them to pay pay pay pay pay for every pixel downloaded has been a welcome breath of fresh air.
I personally do not measure a games success by what the reviewers say nor what goes viral online, I rather put the test of time and if I do not get bored of the game in two weeks. It may not be the vanilla version that passes the test of time but the engine it operates on that will with out a doubt and the AI is a big important part for a fast and quick congregation of gamers to form a vibrant and solid community of modders and players alike.
If this game is successful at adapting itself to Icewind dale tactical battles and has the ability to have detailed dungeons, caves, etc it is sure to be a hit for table top PnP players (specially with Dungeon Masters). Then if it truly has a "world class AI" MoM all over again when it comes to players that love such style of play. It uses Python which is supposed to be fairly easy to learn (compared to others). This game has the ingredients to become a favorite to many type/age of gamers/modders.
I think the real beta test will be when the vanilla version is first released I think it will not be until later that the true scope/genius/care will become apparent as additions/patches/extensions/modding starts to fire out in all cylinders all over the world!
P.S. succeed at capturing the often not computer loving PnP, dice throwing rping community (which is immense and world wide) and Stardock will have half the battle of exposure taken care of just with one type of player. Lets not forget this is Stardock as well stamped on the box; no self respected gamer will ever dismiss such a game to quickly.
Hopefully the graphics system that can work on all types of computers (low end and high end) will help deliver for those PnP players as im sure as hell most people would not buy a new computer/graphics card for one game. Your post also highlights that Stardock is infact customer friendly which is good cause i started feeling like i was being a suck up
Yes, and that's the point. Taking Blizzard as an example is the reason why you should reconsider that "end of August" release deadline. If you want Blizzard-polish, you need to give it Blizzard-time. 2.5 months might be way too tight for that.
A guy plays twenty games, suddenly he's a consultant.
I think that balancing will take some time as well. [Beta3]
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